Downswing blues. How to beat terrible players?

Afternoon.

Trying hard to figure out where i actually stand with poker now. I
recently moved up to 5nl and was KILLING it hard for 3k hands, then had a reasonable downswing for the last 2k hands. Small sample size indeed but i just don't know what's going on?

My ace high flush got beat yesterday on an unpaired board. People with 80/10 stats are taking my money, like, CONSTANTLY, flops are dodging me with athletic precision. Last night i got pocket Q 3 times and EACH time had an unknown throw a third of their stack at consistently dry flops. And i did not call/raise.

I'm wondering, what IS a downswing? is the downswing real and the rest of my poker possitive variance? should variance BE this variant? does probabiltiy mean anything? is probability macro cosmic or micro cosmic? i.e. could someone's whole poker life be one massive downswing or upswing?

coz that could lead to some superstitious debate even though it's just maths and stats.

Anyway, the thing is, my total HH is only about 17k hands, so i don't have much perspective. I'm just not sure, and i think this is the bottom line, how to play with any kind of confidence, knowing that my full houses and nut flushes are getting beaten on the river when the villains has fuck all odds to call. It's forcing me to play very weird at times.

Is it just phasic? or just micro stakes? it does seem micro stakes have a lot of variance. K7o and A2o idiots taking two pair by the river. That's all find coz, i can hear you shout, that's what we WANT. But at the same time, when sat a table full of 'em, when they go all in, you aint got a CLUE what they have.

Discuss.

You folded QQ to a dry flop at $5NL? Three times?

yep, didn't you read my post?

I'll restate: i'd just had the worst downswing since playing because of being destroyed while holding full houses, straights, flushes, nut flushes and sets. 3rd best pocket overpairs were just a joke to call. Also, note, THREE TIMES huge bets on flop against me. In like an hour while holding QQ.

It was the poker God saying: so, you want low variance huh?

I think the same way sometimes but I'll put it to you gently....you have nothing to complain about. Its a short term problem. I've sat at tables where a player had 100% VPIP. He simply never folded. I waited and waited and I never got a hand to stay in the pot with him. He ended busting to everyone else at the table....
Thats life.
As for you QQ's....you probably could've called once.....but thats my opinion.

Just play through it. The important thing is to not change your style (unless it really needs to change). Don't start playing subpar cards just because you want to mix it up...

"It's forcing me to play very weird at times"

That's the most worrying part of the post. Getting rivered is like an occupational hazard, don't change a winning play style because of it.

Getting all those boats cracked sucks, I feel for you. But if you look back at your HH and decide you wouldn't have played them any differently, it's just one of those days. You can't range these donkeys, all you can do is play tight and play well, their short term variance (luck) won't last forever.

Maybe you could offer a fruit basket to the poker gods or something :D

Why would villains catching cards on the river that beat your full houses and nut flushes when you're giving him fuck all odds to call force you to play differently? If anything, that should be encouragement that you're getting your money in where it counts. Your downswing could be a result of you changing your play style when you played well but saw bad results. So what if you lose with your queens on a dry flop. If you put your money in there and he hits his 2 pair/flush/trips on the turn/river, good for him, he has a bigger stack to donate to the table next time he chases and doesn't get so lucky. In other words, who cares about results, focus on how you played the hand, and don't be afraid to play/bet with non nut hands.

yeah, to be honest, that's one of a list of things i started to note down as reflections on micro downswings.

Don't play to win money, just play good poker. Fucking hard though, it's an emotional game (although ideally shouldn't be) but in the middle of a downswing, i get the shakes when i get AK, and not out of joy but out of fear.

Good point though.

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Originally Posted by wonderland

when they go all in, you aint got a CLUE what they have.

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Then I must ask, what's the problem here? Are you paying them off while not having a clue what they have? Because that's a problem. Ride the swings out, we've all been there. If it's that big of an issue for you emotionally, drop down in stakes for a session or two.

I'm in the same EXACT boat. I'm playing 5NL...I crushed it my first few sessions but all of a sudden and getting bitched by everybody. I NEVER know what anybody has. I wrote about this in my OP (which I am now shamelessly plugging). It's sick. I had a player call me down with T5o with no reason (no straight or flush draw). He finally caught his ten on the river and beat me (I had 9s). It really is bad...but I guess we have to play through it. My only problem is I feel it'll never end being that I can't read my opponents for shit. I have people calling me preflop with Qx. I don't know...let me know how everything turns out. Glad to know someone else is in the same boat.

Again, to be fair on me, when they bet a third of their stack on the flop when i had QQ, i would have to be pretty much committed to call that. Thing is, i had NO read on these players, hence the fold, which i think is sensible really?

I just watched a 100nl video and i've bee thinking. Table image. Table image is huge. I limp way to often. I don't raise PP or SC because i don't expect to hit much at all... but i don't think that's the point really, is it? So maybe i'm letting donks get away with their bullshit too often.

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Originally Posted by wonderland

Again, to be fair on me, when they bet a third of their stack on the flop when i had QQ, i would have to be pretty much committed to call that. Thing is, i had NO read on these players, hence the fold, which i think is sensible really?

I just watched a 100nl video and i've bee thinking. Table image. Table image is huge. I limp way to often. I don't raise PP or SC because i don't expect to hit much at all... but i don't think that's the point really, is it? So maybe i'm letting donks get away with their bullshit too often.

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I'm not sure 5NL players are paying much attention to your table image. I may be wrong though...but I just can't see it.

Excellent. Thinking about your game. Plug those leaks (however minor) and jump back in there, I'm rooting for ya.

Oh jesus, here we go again.

Bad beats are never the reason you're not beating anything. They come and go. The reason you're not winning is because you're not bet sizing effectively enough when you do have the best hand, you miss opportunities to steal, and you probably just generally don't do a lot right. That's why you're playing the micros. Post some hands, read some articles and try to learn.

It looks like you even have leaks in your preflop game. You should be very rarely limping sc's and pp's - only if there are a bunch of limpers, and most pp's you should be raising.
Whether or not you can fold queens on an undercard flop depends on the dynamic, the texture, preflop, the villain, the stacks and what happens on the flop. Post the complete HH with reads, and you might get some useful input.

yeah, massive hole in my game is preflop PP and SCs.

Coz if i raise PF with small-mid PP then anything crushes me except a set. So i feel it unprofitable to raise every time. Also, SCs hit jack shit on the flop almost always.

My post flop play is very meh, used to be non existent though. As such i don't want to really tangle with a completely dead flop when i'm holding 44 and the flop is TQ5 or when i have 89s and the flop is K2Q.

The reason i started this thread though, was that i was mainly playing strong with AQ, AK, AJ, KQ, JJ+ and getting constantly busted by people calling with like K7o and not knowing what the HELL to put people on. If you bet strong there with TPTK you'll piss away your bank roll quite fast, no? This is 'strange' poker though, because i'm talking about times when for hundreds/thousands of hands you're getting donk-fucked. Times like that are just weird.

move up to where they respect you raises. imo.

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Originally Posted by wonderland

I'm wondering, what IS a downswing?

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Downswings are not real. They are invented by our minds. For example, say you play your AA versus villain KK pre-flop all-in 1000 times in a row. On average you will win 800 and they will win 200. Suppose that between hand numbers 50 and 150, of the 200 times you lost, 75 of your losses occurred in that short 100 hand interval. Our minds would call that area a downswing, but the reason it's counterproductive to think in those terms is because you cannot predict what will happen in the future based on "downswings", yet otherwise sane players will make irrational decisions because they believe they are in one. For example, they may not play hands the same way, may avoid players, or may go out of their way to play with other players. Players like to think they are in a downswing rut or they are due to breakout or things will even out soon, yet NONE of those things are necessarily true BECAUSE of what has happened in the past. The best thing you can do is analyze your overall play and on a hand by hand basis and try to determine if you did play or are playing the best you can and making the best decisions you can. The results after the best decision has been made are inconsequential.

What can be challenging is playing consistently when you are losing or in a downswing. Also, it's challenging to assess if you are playing optimally and making good decisions. It's also noteworthy that some players, including myself, believe that if you are in a "downswing" that more times than not, you are probably not playing as well as you could. So, don't write everything off as variance, but don't spend time worrying about things you can't control.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderland

... knowing that my full houses and nut flushes are getting beaten on the river when the villains has fuck all odds to call. It's forcing me to play very weird at times.

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It's not forcing you to play differently, rather you are choosing to play differently. You've already admitted that you have played a small sample size, but even if it was a large sample size, if you cannot deal with losing to inferior hands or getting drawn out or coolered, poker will be an even tougher game than it already is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderland

It was the poker God saying: so, you want low variance huh?

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Just to be thorough: there are no poker Gods. Players invent them and then change their play to justify how these fictional Gods are treating them. Poker is strange. You play a while and get consistent good results and then all of the sudden you get consistent bad results. Try not to get too results oriented. Follow bankroll management, make good decisions, study, reflect, and keep improving. This is easier said than done, I know, but it's what we should all aim to do. Good luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderland

Afternoon.

Trying hard to figure out where i actually stand with poker now. I
recently moved up to 5nl and was KILLING it hard for 3k hands, then had a reasonable downswing for the last 2k hands. Small sample size indeed but i just don't know what's going on?

My ace high flush got beat yesterday on an unpaired board. People with 80/10 stats are taking my money, like, CONSTANTLY, flops are dodging me with athletic precision. Last night i got pocket Q 3 times and EACH time had an unknown throw a third of their stack at consistently dry flops. And i did not call/raise.

I'm wondering, what IS a downswing? is the downswing real and the rest of my poker possitive variance? should variance BE this variant? does probabiltiy mean anything? is probability macro cosmic or micro cosmic? i.e. could someone's whole poker life be one massive downswing or upswing?

coz that could lead to some superstitious debate even though it's just maths and stats.

Anyway, the thing is, my total HH is only about 17k hands, so i don't have much perspective. I'm just not sure, and i think this is the bottom line, how to play with any kind of confidence, knowing that my full houses and nut flushes are getting beaten on the river when the villains has fuck all odds to call. It's forcing me to play very weird at times.

Is it just phasic? or just micro stakes? it does seem micro stakes have a lot of variance. K7o and A2o idiots taking two pair by the river. That's all find coz, i can hear you shout, that's what we WANT. But at the same time, when sat a table full of 'em, when they go all in, you aint got a CLUE what they have.

Discuss.

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First bold line: you said it yourself
Second bold line: depends on how many hands they play
Third bold line: like you said it's just math, start reading about equity
Fourth: Are you a winner over that sample
Fifth: Bet/Fold more, don't try to bluff out fish.

And finally, judging by your post I have a feeling you're not thinking enough about hand ranges. You're still thinking like 'what hand does he have' as opposed to 'what range of hands does he have'.

I'll give an example. Let's say you're playing heads up and your opponent is shoving all in every hand. You're afraid he could have AA or KK though so you fold everything and wait till you get the nuts. What's wrong with your thinking here and what should you do? What range of hands should you be calling with? (Guys don't give out the answer please it will ruin the exercise for him).

Also it may be beneficial to post some stats so we can help you identify any leaks and areas that need improvement. Hopefully you'll be able to learn a few things and push yourself out of your downswing.

Hey, thanks muchly for the response.

Ok, i've got my graph here:

http://www.stayinwonderland.com/clients/mar-24-2009.jpg

try and view full size for clarity.

In answer to your question, which maybe the graph will do anyway, yes overall i'm a winner at both stakes i've played. I deposited $40, blew half on SNGs then was told there's litte money in that Vs cash and was promptly given a good few resorces by a good FTRer. Now, as you can see in my sig, i have $170 and have had two decent downswings in that time worth 3 buy-ins each.

And this eve i was kind of on a heater so that's nice, didn't know which way it was going to go. Here are my stats for March and pretty much all of my 5nl plays since i started at these stakes:

http://www.stayinwonderland.com/clie...9_winnings.jpg

So you can see the cooler up top.

And so ok, i feel a little calmer now. But that cooler, when it hit amidst all those previous wins, made me think i was just running hot and that THIS was the truth. I do think i'm impatient. I see some people's graphs and there's no straight horizontal shit or large dips, just voom, up. So i get nervous.

Ranges. Funny you should say that, at 2nl i had no clue about ranges but these days i DO note when someone raises, min raises, limp calls etc. and wait to see a showdown. Then i'm all over that note shit.

However, my issue of late has looked like this: 20/10 to my right say, 80/5 to my left who never folds. I see him limp with AKs and maybe raise with Q4s and call a 6x raise... and this is from actual memory... with 82o. Range? you tell me!

Tonight that guy almost cleaned my clock with 95s when i raised 5x with AKs. Board came down 9 high, paired by the turn, i even fired out once. So people like that can take everyone's stack, then probably give it back to someone else.

One final note. Tonight i was a lot more aggressive and it seemed to pay off. I would bet 5 or 6x then if i hit with two limp callers (often) i'd fire 4/5 then same again or full pot or even more on the turn. And i used to slow play hands, not any more. Get CONSTATNLY fucked by slow playing aaaaany decent hand. And i mean ANY decent hand.

So, your comments are welcome. Thanks again for the feedback!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderland

However, my issue of late has looked like this: 20/10 to my right say, 80/5 to my left who never folds. I see him limp with AKs and maybe raise with Q4s and call a 6x raise... and this is from actual memory... with 82o. Range? you tell me!

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Just FWIW.... you should try to have this reversed. Try to have the 20/10 on your left and the 80/5 on your right. You want position on these players and the 20/10 will usually let you know when he has a hand.

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Originally Posted by wonderland

two decent downswings in that time worth 3 buy-ins each

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3 BI "downswings". wtf.

and you've had a 2k break even stretch recently.

this is nothing to be worried about at all fwiw. ive had (and im sure other people have had) sessions/days where I lose 3 BIs and BE streches for much longer than 2k hands.

try not to be SO results oriented as it seems so far you've experienced the tip of the variance iceberg - and it sounds like one bad session is all it takes to make you really question your game.

just keep doing the things that have been making you monies and it'll all be good, as it seems like you're doing fine.

gl.

Your graph will never ever look this sexy again once you move out of the micros, and a good chunk of your sessions will be in the red, just because the field gets 'tougher' - I put it in quotes because there is absolutely nothing tough about the micros imo, and the mid stakes are still donk ridden.
Those are excellent results. You just need to work on your attitude.

Listen to the deuces cracked 2-part potcast with Tommy Angelo. It's mostly about the mental part of poker... dealing with swings, avoiding tilt and so on.

shit, how grim to know my downswings are likely to be worse in future, or have the capacity to be.

Ok well, i shall certainly take some perspective from this. I guess i needed some.

I'm dying to know what 100nl is like in terms of expecting to win less and then dealing with the more frequent swings. Coz i'd be happy to be getting 5PTBB/100 at that stake and as such that means being ok with losing more frequently than currently where i might average out at about 12-15BB/100 for my stake.

Hell, as long as i'm earning a decent amount each month consistently then the downswings won't matter as much. Currently, being so inexperienced, if i get a downswing i wonder if it's all over! Lol.

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Originally Posted by sil693

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderland

two decent downswings in that time worth 3 buy-ins each

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3 BI "downswings". wtf.

and you've had a 2k break even stretch recently.

this is nothing to be worried about at all fwiw. ive had (and im sure other people have had) sessions/days where I lose 3 BIs and BE streches for much longer than 2k hands.

try not to be SO results oriented as it seems so far you've experienced the tip of the variance iceberg - and it sounds like one bad session is all it takes to make you really question your game.

just keep doing the things that have been making you monies and it'll all be good, as it seems like you're doing fine.

gl.

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Agreed. I've been grinding 25nl for over 80,000 hands and just got finished with a severe 2-day downswing that led to a 10,000 hand break even stretch. Since Saturday, it's back to a new all time high. These things happen. Ride it out. You won't be winning every day as you move up. Keep playing solid poker. Keep working to get better. You'll be fine.

I've had multiple 15+ buy-in downswings playing cash and 50+ buy-in downswings playing sng's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

I've had multiple 15+ buy-in downswings playing cash

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qft
no offence intended, but <10k hands and the sample size is trivial. +/- 5buyins over 3k hands is meaningless - that's the why of decent bankroll management. But, if you feel you game is leaky at $5nl, then it probably is...

SHEEIT!

80k hands for 25nl. That scares me. I've done 2nl in 12k, 5nl will probably be the same, maybe 15k hands by the time i'm done if i don't hit any major stumbling blocks. But i'd love to know what people are getting for each limit to get an idea as to how long it's going to take to get there.

Talking to Stax perhaps didnn't help because he BLASTED through the limits and got to 100nl reeeeal quick.

I might start a thread to get people's hand sizes for each limit, see what's the 'norm'.

The purpose of this thread was to figure out how to beat the shit players. You know the thing of: there's no point in trying to win at free poker or nearly free poker or perhaps even normal cash poker if the players are bad enough because you'll have no idea what the hell the other person is doing. That's what i sometimes find at micro stakes. Yes! there's my ace! King kicker... take THAT donk. Ah, he called my 5x with A4o and hit two pair by the river. And i'm sat at a table full of these idiots.

So i conclude that you either get off that table, fish are one thing, but idiots with five bucks going spare who turn up to a table to try to win some short term pennies/beat the guy across from them who they don't like... they can be dangerous.

or

Be more aggressive. One trick i had was to do this:
say you hit good on the turn. Station calls. There's now two sutis on the table, you know he's gunning for the third spade. River sees NO flush OR pair but YOU hit a second pair or maybe not, maybe you just feel your cards are good enough. Bet such a large amount that he could only call if he JUST HAS to know what card you have.

Not too big that it's obvious he should fold, not too small that he'll call (this is sacrificing some short term coz you won't be value betting here). But the fish HAS to know that when he calls your first bet, you're going to fire BIG a lot of the time. And one of those times he's going to tilt and call your large bet or even raise you assuming that maybe all this time you've been bluffing.

Fuck 'em up.

To beat any player, you find out how they're acting in general and adjust accordingly. To beat the "idiots", then, simply play super tight and wait for the quality hands and let them pay you off. When they're very wild there's obviously going to be a lot more big pots, and therefore wtfhuge variance, but it will still profit you if repeated many many times. It may make you more uncomfortable, especially when you start seeing a lot of draw-outs, but you have to think "oh well, the majority of the time that would have worked".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderland

... two decent downswings in that time worth 3 buy-ins each.

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As has already been said, LOL.

I've taken my roll from $50 to $1,500 over about 90K hands, and am a winner at all stakes from 2NL to 25NL. I'm now playing 50NL.

In that time I've had three downswings of more than 10 buy-ins, and two of more than 15 buy-ins. Right now I'm 16 buy-ins below my peak at 50NL (which is why I didn't say I was a winner there ... yet!).

Last night I lost several buy-ins, including:
- QQ vs Q5 on a 559 flop (yes, he called my preflop raise with Q5o)
- KK v TT on a 9-high flop - turn T
- J6 vs KT on a J65 flop - turn K, river K
- AQ on KJTr board, turn and river both clubs, and he shows the flush

The other night I dropped two stacks within 5 minutes with a strong full house (ie. using both my pocket cards) both times - the first ran into quads and the second into a straight flush.

Shit happens. Get up, dust yourself off and get on with it.

:facepalm:

Seriously why are you made at 3 BI downswing? For the entire month of January this year I broke even. Its not pretty, its not fun, but it happens. If you ever want to be a solid winning poker player, you have be able to just power through this short term variance. And tbh, your graph is looking pretty sexy, who cares about a little blip there at the end?

As everyone else has bee saying, just worry about making the right play, and upswong of BR will ensue. GL sir!

well yeah, i had no idea folks had such evil downswings!

i appreciate the feedback so i can get a better scale of what IS bad.

I think if i got to say 50nl, i'd be happy because regardless of anything i'd know i'd made it and played about 100k hands. At the moment, i'm so new i have no idea if i'm doing well or not.

Those bad beats/coolers suck Tony! sheit. I DO think it's good for people to share their bad beats because it does, ESPCIALLY during your first 20k hands, feel like it could only happen to you. When you find out otherwise it takes the edge off!

Shit, 50nl and people STILL calling with Q5o! These people must just be depositing for one game every couple of weeks for a laugh!

Bad beats, suckouts, coolers, 2 outers, whatever you call them - I call them futures investments.

I guess it doesn't tilt me because I'm less concerned about whether I won or not, and more concerned about whether I played the hand well. I got busted out of a SnG last night by 96s when they called my shove and hit trip 9s. That's fine. What really tilted me was when I got KK at the second blind level and my internet connection dropped, by the time I got back in I was card dead till the hand that broke me.

Downswing or slump? We all go through it.Don't fix something that isn't broke.If your playing a decent game,stay with it.Use the information on FTR to make your game better.Not change your entire theory and gut feelings of starting to play as a controlled player and by specific rules.You can learn and still have fun at it or it becomes just another job.Don't start chasing when losing,because there's that chance to lose it all.Take a deep breath and start over. Treat every hand like a new game.[Taking it from experience]

Don't throw away good hands your luck will change. Try bad beat on poker.com. You will like a bad beat. When you get to the end of the rope tie a knot and hang on.

Lucothe fish said

Bad beats, suckouts, coolers, 2 outers, whatever you call them - I call them futures investments.

I guess it doesn't tilt me because I'm less concerned about whether I won or not, and more concerned about whether I played the hand well. I got busted out of a SnG last night by 96s when they called my shove and hit trip 9s. That's fine. What really tilted me was when I got KK at the second blind level and my internet connection dropped, by the time I got back in I was card dead till the hand that broke me.

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Thats tight dude I REALLY REALLY coming to realize poker is more mental.....i can 100% guarantee a player that has no emotion and sticks to the rules is probley way better than a great player u tilts...damn deep shit...Im hella that good player that tilts....veryy good shit lucothefish thats whats up im pretty close to being a emotion less player......The u care more about if u played the hand irght than the result thats EXACTTLYYY my fuckin problem hmm i like this thread helped out alot!

I had a downswing of about 12 buyins playing cash at the micros a while back, I posted a number of hands and was told that I didn't play them particularly bad it was just variance. I stumbled across this shortly after and have it pinned on the wall now. I think it sums it all perfectly =)

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Originally Posted by Tommy Angelo

A Process of Illumination

During bad times, we get unhappy. Let’s say we wanted to be less unhappy during bad times. We could train ourselves to do it, if we were to use our bad times as opportunities to practice getting better at getting over bad times. The ideal arrangement would be if we had lots of bad times to practice on, so that we could get better even faster.

So, to help us accelerate the process of learning how to handle bad times, we decide to invent a new game. We call it: Bad Times. The purpose of Bad Times is to cause bad times for everyone. The more the better, and the worse the better.

We’d want our game to unleash waves of agony and anger, again and again, on every player. We would call our game a success if it caused depression, oppression, beguilement, defilement. Bad Time would follow us around and cause us grief, by souring our relationships, our disposition, and our grapes. We would design and refine our game to be seductive, and addictive, in multiple ways, so that its snares snag many, many times.

Our game would not be like chess. At chess, whoever plays the best wins. Where’s the agony in that? Our game must be viciously unjust: the better you play, the more exquisite will be your torture. To that end, we will employ a significant randomizing agent. Something like randomly selected pieces of paper with markings on them would work. We would attenuate the luck factor so that it causes the maximum amount of confusion, and delusion, and bad times, and very bad times.

Our game would not be like football or any other game that has teams. A team forms a supportive network that makes losing easier. We’ll have none of that in our game. Not only will nobody and I mean nobody share your pain, they will probably enjoy it.

Mountain climbing is painful, but Bad Times would not be anything like mountain climbing. A mountain climber is so busy at not freezing to death and not falling to death that his pain doesn’t really get a chance to cook properly. Our game would have gaps in the action, plenty of time for steaming, and simmering, and stewing, and boiling, plenty of time to allow the thinking mind to wander off and injure itself, so that we can practice healing it.

Let’s see. What else. Oh, I know. Proximity. We’ll sit in a circle, as close as we can get without touching. That way the bad vibes of Bad Times can spread easily and quickly, spraying fertile spores of conflict. And let’s have comfortable chairs that stick to people who are stuck. And we’ll have dealers, ghastly beasts possessing wizardly powers, able to raise the frequency and pungency of the bad times.

What would be at stake? What could we put on the line that would pour on the pain? What could we lose that would amplify the anguish? Pride? Of course there would be that, but loss of pride is not nearly severe enough to do the damage we’re after here. Plus, everyone doesn’t have it, so everyone can’t lose it. We need something that is universally valuable. Something everyone has, and wants more of.

We decide that in our new game, the loser will pay, not only in pride, but also in cash. Money buys time, and food, and choices. Money is time, and food, and choices. Money equals food. Food equals life. Money equals life. Broke equals death. In our society, wagering money is as close as we can get to betting our lives. With so much at stake, our game is sure to cause desperation, and treachery, and man, this is truly a nasty game we are inventing here. Do you think we’ll be able to get anybody to play it?


We play our new game, and the bad times come, and we remember to follow our breathing. In, and out. In, and out. By doing so, we set aside our thoughts about what went wrong, and we step away from our thoughts about what might go wrong, and for that moment, when those thoughts are gone, so too is unhappiness. By eliminating the past, and eliminating the future, we give ourselves this present. We will practice this process of elimination, using our new game, and it will become for us a process of illumination. Let us play.

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http://tommyangelo.com/articles/a_pr...lumination.htm

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Originally Posted by wonderland

Don't play to win money, just play good poker. Fucking hard though, it's an emotional game.

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wow, what a dangerous game is poker eh. I have gotten over my mini downswing now. I made the money back in two days.

see, for me personally, i have decided that i HATE to the point of literally not being able to stand it anymore, the world of employment. I've searched every corner for a job that i would love and the problem is, they all have these disgusting properties:

1. 40 hours of my life a week. Sorry, that's unacceptable.
2. having to get up early and stay in one place for 8 hours (while this isn't true of all jobs, it's true for anything like what i would want to do)
3. a boss
4. pretty much a less than fair wage
5. constant mundane work and pointless deadlines

poker, i've decided, is my last resort to earning my way through life without having those issues. Every time things go quite bad, that way out is threatened. So a bad day weighs heavily and a good day is transportingly wonderful.

Doesn't have to hit me like that, i know. But it's hard not to 'go there'.

cheers

its not the downswing thats threatening your way out, its the effect of it on your game thats threatening it.

i'm starting to put it down to just variance. I play quite a high variance game really. In any one day i'll have both lost and won a buy-in in just a few hands, the rest is little pots.

If i lose a few in a row it starts to look like a downswing but it's not really. Or at least THIS wasn't a real downswing, i climbed back after it.

Do you play an aggressive/semi spewey style to induce your opponets to call when you have a monster? If so, this would lead to a lot of variance. I only ask becuase I have been guilty of this from time to time and it CAN lead to some great days if you hit the hands at some point, but can be BAD if nothing ever comes your way. (i.e. down 2-3 buyins on really bad days of this)

man, it's hard to say lately. I watched a video by spenda and started to cbet and bluff more, taking down a fair amount of pots. But sometimes i just get called or raised. My main thing is that i've increased my bet sizing, and stopped slow playing.

It's just also poker madness. I've had AA busted by sets (all pocket eights) 3 times in the last week or two. I've had an ace high flush beaten by a straight flush as i mentioned i think. Just the usual micro madness though. Then long periods of the following:

1. missing flops completely with 2+ callers
2. hitting flops but no one puts any money in
3. hitting something but someone else hits bigger

So with all that my graph lately has done a bit of a bart simpson haircut thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderland

man, it's hard to say lately. I watched a video by spenda and started to cbet and bluff more, taking down a fair amount of pots. But sometimes i just get called or raised. My main thing is that i've increased my bet sizing, and stopped slow playing.

It's just also poker madness. I've had AA busted by sets (all pocket eights) 3 times in the last week or two. I've had an ace high flush beaten by a straight flush as i mentioned i think. Just the usual micro madness though. Then long periods of the following:

1. missing flops completely with 2+ callers
2. hitting flops but no one puts any money in
3. hitting something but someone else hits bigger

So with all that my graph lately has done a bit of a bart simpson haircut thing.

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Get used to this stuff. That's why rakeback is so important once we get to higher stakes.. because if you think the swings are bad at micros.. you are in for a rude awakening.

Poker is a strange creature. Sometimes I sit down and am up 3 buy-ins in 10 minutes and other times I play 3 hours to break even. All we can do is set a stop-loss and then review hands to make sure we aren't majorly spewing somewhere.

Quote:

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You folded QQ to a dry flop at $5NL? Three times?

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I ask the same, people will stack off with top pair, bottom kicker on a 7 high board!

Hard to say that though, the idea is: you bet hard when you hit the flop and if raised hard you really have to think about it, and if you have no read on the other player, they COULD be one of the, say, 30% of of ok playing micros. Or they could have a set or two pair.

That to me is almost coin toss land. You're probably ahead there which, fine, could well be +EV to call/shove but if you're trying to build a bankroll and keep getting into such coin flips (fairly common at lower micros) there is the chioce of being nitty. It's hard to call on that one i think, i don't thinks it's black and white.

Poker is anything but black and white :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderland

Hard to say that though, the idea is: you bet hard when you hit the flop and if raised hard you really have to think about it, and if you have no read on the other player, they COULD be one of the, say, 30% of of ok playing micros. Or they could have a set or two pair.

That to me is almost coin toss land. You're probably ahead there which, fine, could well be +EV to call/shove but if you're trying to build a bankroll and keep getting into such coin flips (fairly common at lower micros) there is the chioce of being nitty. It's hard to call on that one i think, i don't thinks it's black and white.

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if you're avoiding situations where you're likely to be good, that's how you get "variance" to begin with
if you took every opportunity where you're a favorite, you'd win so much money that it doesn't matter if you're losing one or two times

that's why you have a bankroll, so you can stack off with QQ and say whatever when he has you beat and not be worried about it because the next time he'll have worse

Good point. I forget about the long term sometimes. Hard when, while the money doesn't mean anything, the stake-climbing does at these stakes. One gets in a hurry :/

i didnt really read the last 1/3 cause it was getting long..

but i have gone from 200 to 450 to 290 now to 340 from the start of march until now in early april. 450 to 290 is pretty tough. your graph is hot and i wouldnt be complaining lol..

i dont think you should be moving up until that shit doesnt affect you. cause if ur real upset at losing 15 bucks when you're money is in good you're not going to cope well when you loose $30 pots.

Like i say, i think how the bad beats, coolers, downswings etc. affect you is based on what exactly the money means to you.

Before i started playing $2nl and was playing online for play money i bought in for $100 at the local casino in Vancouver when i lived there, on the promise that it was fishy on friday nights. Ahem... to quote one Homer Simpson:

"Wrong!" *smashes plate on head.

I unwittingly adopted the style of weak/tight while everyone around me had $600 piles and played slightly laggy. I lost $50 over about 3 hours! (vp of about 3% seriously). Now, that is a quarter of my entire current bankroll and i didn't care coz back then i just bought in with no idea of BRM. So i had a cool time, lost fiddy bucks and learned to NEVER play 100nl again :)

But noooow, if i lose a buy-in or two i go apeshit because it means having to grind for a few more days just to get back to where i was, delaying moving up etc. Now that's obviously a sheeeit attitude but that's what i associate with loss these days.

It harms my game so much because i am NOT relaxed when i sit down to play. And i won't be able to just stop doing that over night, so i'm unsure as to the psychological method to employ to free me from that impatient urge to climb and have a nice graph + BB/100.

Wonderland, STOP THINKING ABOUT THE MONEY.

If you're playing with scared money, you're not concentrating on the game. Don't think of your BR as money that is yours yet. It's not yours until you withdraw it. Right now that $200 is a tool of the trade and nothing more and if you can't detach yourself from your BR, you could get bluffed out of pots by anyone who notices.

You're rolled for $10NL now but I'd stick at $5NL until you can switch your thinking from "I just lost three buy-ins" to "I got my money in good three times". If you didn't get your money in good, all the more reason to stay at $5NL where the learner's tax is lower. I've had losing sessions where I felt that I played really well and winning sessions where I felt I played like crap but got lucky, guess which one bothers me more.

Finally, don't feel like you have to finish every session in the black. This is a long, long game. A lifetime for many people. Patience is fundamental to any winning poker player, so you have to remove the urge to climb or you could struggle to succeed.

Profit is a side effect of solid poker, so worry about the latter and the former will happen naturally :)

Sincerest good luck

Thanks for the shoulder shaking Lucothefish,

Weeeell, i wouldn't say i was on scared money, i do feel the bank roll when i bet, and can often make complete bluffs when i feel the time is right. I'm playing around 25-30% vp, although sometimes more like 18%.

I'd be very cautious as soon as i moved up to any stakes though.

But the point remains, i really do need to learn to detach from the outcome.

It just hits me when i've been struggling for hours with bad hands, missed flops, called bluffs and then i hit big but someone else has hit bigger. It's just plain agro.

So in conclusion, i feel i should focus on my game first and my winnings a lot less. As you say, $$ comes with the territory as my skill sharpens.

Im going through the same thing wonderland. Trying to learn how to ignore my bankroll while playing at the proper level. Just trying to remind myself its the life of a poker player. They can not all be positive days.

Some days running GREAT then the next NOTHING. Just keep at it, we'll get there! Good Luck Friend

I feel for you, watch some videos and read some articles. Evaluate your game a little more. I know you were going through a rough patch when you kept getting those ladies but that does not mean you should be folding them when you see dry flops against unknown villians. I'm not saying play them everytime but im sure you were a huge favorite at least 1 of the 3 times in not two. Even in the midst of a downswing you will win some pots!!! Depending on the players at the table and position should dictate to you how you should be playing those pp's and sc's. Read some 6 man strategy guides. Stick through the downswing man it wont last forever. gl

yeah, for the record i'm out of the downswing.

I had a downswing, then things went good, then a longish period of zig zags that i thought would never end. Now i'm finally rolled for 10nl.

But i'm starting to think less about heaters or coolers and more about how the hell i can improve my game. Videos are the best way for me to learn, as long as the person doing them is clear and concise. So i'll stick with 5nl for a bit.

Get a membership over at grinderschool.com wonderland just got mine last night ^_^ Looking forward to loading up on videos here soon.

well, how funny you should say that. I'm off work sick today and just got comped a month at grinderschool coz i was owed a small favour.

So i just watched a nice 10nl vid and also grabbed a lecture on 3betting.

I'd say post 10nl (as in once 5nl is being beated well or has been beaten) one needs to factor in a vid sight budget.

then for 25 at least (possibly 50) one has to start to think about a coach.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderland

well, how funny you should say that. I'm off work sick today and just got comped a month at grinderschool coz i was owed a small favour.

So i just watched a nice 10nl vid and also grabbed a lecture on 3betting.

I'd say post 10nl (as in once 5nl is being beated well or has been beaten) one needs to factor in a vid sight budget.

then for 25 at least (possibly 50) one has to start to think about a coach.

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The part about a video site, yea, I agree with that.

A coach on the other hand I don't think you HAVE to have one at 25nl or maybe even 50nl. The only reason I will ever get a coach is if I have taken shots at the next higher level, and I have failed miserably multiple times. Other then that, all you really need is this site, imo. Plenty of people that are better poker players that are willing to share their information for free.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wonderland

I'd say post 10nl (as in once 5nl is being beated well or has been beaten) one needs to factor in a vid sight budget.

then for 25 at least (possibly 50) one has to start to think about a coach.

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disagree on both points

don't expand or anything...

On daven's point, we all have to get to a place where we can learn poker and plug our leaks on our own, and some vid sites are better than others at teaching you how to think. If you can learn to learn without videos or a coach, don't pay for it. If coaching/vids help you, then join up. But they certainly aren't necessary for many players.

The disturbing point is that in this entire thread (which I read pretty much all of), no one took issue with the idea that at 5nl "they can show down with anything." Each villain has tendencies and can be "read" if you're paying attention. Just because any one villain can show down anything doesn't mean they all are like that. Some will fold 2nd pair. Most will let you manipulate the pot size. Some jam their draws (but fewer than ought to).

If you're not able to read villains at 5nl, you're not practicing enough and you're not ready for 10nl+. If you want help with the point of this thread, i.e. "beating terrible players," post some HH's where you got lost, try the ranges yourself, and then get some pointers from folks who do practice putting villains on ranges every hand.

I will admit that you can lazily beat 10nl without working on your range reading. I did. But you won't get to 50nl or above without it. Practice, dammit. Practice your ranges every hand.

Everybody in this thread:

Shut the f**k up - go play more hands and win some money.

If you cant, you suck and need to do some learning.

Then guess what?

Go play some f**king more hands and win some money

(im the worst for not doing the above)


HH to save post:

$0.25/$0.5 Pot Limit Omaha Hi
2 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
BTN mbeezy02 ($46.15)
BB Hero ($126.05)

Pre-flop: ($0.75, 2 players) Hero is BB :kd: :8c: :kh: :ac:
mbeezy02 raises to $1.50, Hero raises to $4.50, mbeezy02 calls $3

Flop: :5d: :ts: :2c: ($9, 2 players)
Hero checks, mbeezy02 bets $6.50, Hero raises to $18, mbeezy02 goes all-in $41.65, Hero calls $23.65

Turn: :4d: ($92.30, 2 players)

River: :js: ($92.30, 2 players)

Final Pot: $92.30
Hero shows: :kd: :8c: :kh: :ac:
mbeezy02 shows: :5s: :jh: :6h: :4s:

mbeezy02 wins $91.80 ( won +$45.65 )
Hero lost -$46.15