Can you have too much at a table?

Printable View

03-22-2009, 02:41 AM
lockpull

Can you have too much at a table?

I am listening to Greenstein's analysis on the AA vs Durrr on HSP and he said that one mistake that younger players make is to buy in too big on a cash table. It got me wondering, since yesterday I had a good day at 5NL where I had gotten my self up almost 4 buyins and the rest of the table (which was mainly new players since the ones I had been playing with had busted out) had about $2-5 each. At this point (and expecially when the table is almost all new players that you have no reads on) should you get up and buyin to a new table and start again? It just seemed like I was the target of the whole table since my stack was so large and they seemed to want to call any draw no matter what the odds were. Is this a case (or is there a point) where the OPP has much more to gain from you than you do from them so it is time to go?
03-22-2009, 02:46 AM
KillsAids

If your opponents have less than 1 buy in then it doesnt matter if u have 4 buy ins or 100 buy ins in front of you. What matters are the effective stacks. If you both have 4 buy ins on that table and you're not comfortable risking this much, then leave. Until then, keep increasing that stack!
03-22-2009, 02:51 AM
KeeKoLy

I agree, for me personally the more I have the better. Like you said, "they just want to call your draw". Good for them, use this to your advantage, if everyone want your money, tighten up and shove maybe a tad more often, you might get a call you would not normally get.
03-22-2009, 03:32 AM
Stacks

I obv agree with what killsaids said. Your only as deep as the next deepest villain at the table. If you have 500BB (5 buyins) in from of you, but the next biggest villain only has 150BB, then you effectively only have 150BB in play at any given time. So no, you shouldn't worry, and you need not change your strategy. Other than if you notice they are playing differently towards you, in which case you would tailor your strategy to exploit that.
03-22-2009, 12:48 PM
dev

If your opponents are making mistakes on purpose because you outstack them, and you leave that table, you suck at poker. Leaving or staying at a table is as important a poker decision as whether to fold TPTK or not to a check raise.

That said, part of bankroll management is leaving if you have a certain % of your roll at risk. Chris Ferguson's management says to leave if you're risking 10% of your roll, I use 6%. Keep in mind, if you have 400bb and all of your opponents have 100bb, you can only risk 100bb. So if your threshold is 350bb, you're not risking that until one of your opponents reaches it as well. If you leave a good table way before then because of your risk, you should tighten your bankroll requirements until you're risking what you're comfortable with.
03-22-2009, 02:50 PM
Airles™

I tend to leave the table if I'm over 300bb. Don't ask me why. I'm just superstitious like that. And Greenstein is a big fan of buying in for the minimum and doubling up, or at least that's what he says in his book.
03-22-2009, 03:46 PM
kevin2311

i no i wouldnt risk a 20 dollar stack to win 5 dollars. your giving your opponent to much chance to win money from you then you win money from him.
03-22-2009, 04:23 PM
Fnord

Not being deep can be good. At the $1k game, I've left many times when I've gotten over $2k and had loose, aggressive players to my left. One time I had position on a maniac where we both had over $3k and I left because it just wasn't worth it because I couldn't read him!

When the money gets deep being able to put the other guy on a hand becomes huge. Also, you want to manage your money and avoid spots where you're going to be uncomfortable shipping it in when it's profitable but you're not a lock.
03-22-2009, 05:08 PM
LawDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Not being deep can be good. At the $1k game, I've left many times when I've gotten over $2k and had loose, aggressive players to my left. One time I had position on a maniac where we both had over $3k and I left because it just wasn't worth it because I couldn't read him!

When the money gets deep being able to put the other guy on a hand becomes huge. Also, you want to manage your money and avoid spots where you're going to be uncomfortable shipping it in when it's profitable but you're not a lock.

I agree with everything Fnord says here. In THEORY, you want to be the deepest stack, because you (1) get the maximum payoff when you have a big hand, (2) have enough chips to push other players around and therefore get a lot of fold equity, and (3) have enough chips to survive some beats if you have a run of bad luck.

But in practice, what having a huge stack of chips can mean (if there are other very deep stacks, especially loose aggressive ones) is lots of variance. You can end up losing several buy-ins on one bad beat or cooler, and even though you will make that back over the long term with good play, in the short run that's the sort of thing that can really put you on tilt because you rebuy at 1 buy-in (or 1 1/2 at some live tables) and you aren't getting those chips back in the short term.

So I don't have any problem with a no limit player deciding that he's not comfortable playing with this deep a stack and deciding to pack it in. Poker is about managing your emotions and avoiding situations that can cause bad plays, as well as positive EV, so if you feel you need to leave a table occasionally because of this, there's nothing at all wrong with that.
03-22-2009, 06:28 PM
lockpull

Thank you all for your replys. They were more than infomative. I was just questioning because I lost 2.5 of those buyins getting my money in with the best hand and getting drawn out on..... set vs FD, overpair loses to a bottom pair that turned 2pair after money was in and such, etc. I know it will come back to me by playing good poker and keeping my emotions in check but it still hurts to go up 4 buyins and watch most of it go down the tube. Then I realized I had almost 20% of my stack on that table with more than 4x what everyone else did.

On a lighter note, I reall hope for the day I can mimic Greenstein's words:

"I decided $27,000 is really not that much to call to possibly take $200,000."
03-23-2009, 01:02 AM
animal_chin

Re: Can you have too much at a table?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lockpull

I am listening to Greenstein's analysis on the AA vs Durrr on HSP and he said that one mistake that younger players make is to buy in too big on a cash table. It got me wondering, since yesterday I had a good day at 5NL where I had gotten my self up almost 4 buyins and the rest of the table (which was mainly new players since the ones I had been playing with had busted out) had about $2-5 each. At this point (and expecially when the table is almost all new players that you have no reads on) should you get up and buyin to a new table and start again? It just seemed like I was the target of the whole table since my stack was so large and they seemed to want to call any draw no matter what the odds were. Is this a case (or is there a point) where the OPP has much more to gain from you than you do from them so it is time to go?

If my opponents are making stupid plays without proper odds that would give me more reason to stay at that table.
03-23-2009, 02:19 AM
KeeKoLy

How does this apply to live games? Can you get up and take money out of play and then sit down again?
03-23-2009, 10:25 AM
lockpull

I don't think you are allowed to take money off of a table. I have heard/read that it is not allowing other people a fair chance to get their money back. I think the same applies online as well.
03-23-2009, 10:34 AM
Airles™

Quote:

Originally Posted by lockpull

I don't think you are allowed to take money off of a table. I have heard/read that it is not allowing other people a fair chance to get their money back. I think the same applies online as well.

I don't know of any online poker rooms that would let you do this. But live cash games you can, it just shows serious disrespect. It's called "going south" and I imagine people used to get shot for it in the old west.
03-23-2009, 11:55 AM
LawDude

Quote:

Originally Posted by Airles™

Quote:

Originally Posted by lockpull

I don't think you are allowed to take money off of a table. I have heard/read that it is not allowing other people a fair chance to get their money back. I think the same applies online as well.

I don't know of any online poker rooms that would let you do this. But live cash games you can, it just shows serious disrespect. It's called "going south" and I imagine people used to get shot for it in the old west.

At the casinos I play at, you aren't allowed to take money off the table, in no limit or even in limit.
03-23-2009, 11:57 AM
LawDude

Re: Can you have too much at a table?

Quote:

Originally Posted by animal_chin

Quote:

Originally Posted by lockpull

I am listening to Greenstein's analysis on the AA vs Durrr on HSP and he said that one mistake that younger players make is to buy in too big on a cash table. It got me wondering, since yesterday I had a good day at 5NL where I had gotten my self up almost 4 buyins and the rest of the table (which was mainly new players since the ones I had been playing with had busted out) had about $2-5 each. At this point (and expecially when the table is almost all new players that you have no reads on) should you get up and buyin to a new table and start again? It just seemed like I was the target of the whole table since my stack was so large and they seemed to want to call any draw no matter what the odds were. Is this a case (or is there a point) where the OPP has much more to gain from you than you do from them so it is time to go?

If my opponents are making stupid plays without proper odds that would give me more reason to stay at that table.

Again, this is right in a sense but ignores the issue of variance. Having a big stack means that you can lose a ton of money on one hand, and the buy-in limit means that you will have trouble making it back for awhile once you lose it.

Mathematically, of course your EV is positive. But some people simply can't take these sorts of beats psychologically. So there's nothing wrong with packing up and going home to avoid a tilting bad beat.