QQ on turn with undercards...shove?

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03-13-2009, 08:56 AM
Vinland

QQ on turn with undercards...shove?

I don't actually shove very often....almost never.
I had no reads. I wasn't at the table very long.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (SB) ($1.75)
BB ($5.27)
UTG ($2.52)
Villain (MP) ($0.95)
Button ($5.62)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
1 fold, Villain calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.10, 1 fold, Villain calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.22) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.14, Villain calls $0.14

Turn: ($0.50) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.78, Villain calls $0.71 (All-In)

River: ($1.92) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $1.92

Right or wrong I put him on the following range based on his early limp and then calling my preflop raise: 22-JJ (kk,aa less likely due to him not re-raising), Also KT-KQ, A8-AQ (AK would have raised?).

I just had a hard time believing that a flop like that could help him out given the fact he called my PF raise, thats why I shoved the turn. How else could I have played?
03-13-2009, 09:41 AM
pocketfours

Shoving here is good.

At these stakes you don't even need to balance your plays. All the weaker players at have balanced this move for you by shoving air.

Don't post any actions after the action you are asking about. You shouldn't show that villain called here. I mean it's no big deal but just trying to help out how you get the most out of posting hands.
03-13-2009, 09:44 AM
Vinland

Quote:

Don't post any actions after the action you are asking about. You shouldn't show that villain called here. I mean it's no big deal but just trying to help out how you get the most out of posting hands.

right....forgot....
thanks!
03-13-2009, 09:44 AM
celtic123

Hi,

I Think you played it fine, you gave him bad pot odds.

I also think you could have shoved sooner , but you do say you almost never shove.

I think maybe you shouldnt be so short stacked, you are limiting what you should be winning.

I hope my comments are agreeable.
03-13-2009, 10:04 AM
pocketfours

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtic123

I also think you could have shoved sooner , but you do say you almost never shove.

Like at what point for example?
03-13-2009, 10:15 AM
celtic123

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtic123

I also think you could have shoved sooner , but you do say you almost never shove.

Like at what point for example?

Oh, thanks for asking me personally .

I like a shove after the flop shows its face, because

1) I believe im ahead.
2) Shoving cancels out being out of position.
3) Im shortstacked and it could look like a steal.

Please correct me if im off the mark here.

And thanks for encouraging me to clarify my comment.
03-13-2009, 10:52 AM
pocketfours

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtic123

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtic123

I also think you could have shoved sooner , but you do say you almost never shove.

Like at what point for example?

Oh, thanks for asking me personally .

I like a shove after the flop shows its face, because

1) I believe im ahead.
2) Shoving cancels out being out of position.
3) Im shortstacked and it could look like a steal.

Please correct me if im off the mark here.

And thanks for encouraging me to clarify my comment.

Well it's probably not a completely horrible idea at these stakes, but against competent opponents a flop shove of $0.85 into a pot of $0.22 doesn't make much sense.

It's much better to make a standard cbet and give your opponent room to make a mistake of some sort. If villain has a weak or medium strength draw, he will often choose to shove over our cbet, but he won't call a shove. If he has a weak one pair hand like 56s he will almost always call a cbet but fold to a shove. He might even fold top pair if we shove here. We don't want any of that to happen.

First and foremost we want value from worse hands. Everything else like protecting our hand is much less important.

Also notice that we are not very short at all (87.5BB). Villain is the shorter stack.
03-13-2009, 12:53 PM
okiman

I like the way you played it. You will fold out a lot of worse hands if you shove the flop, which pocketfours already mentioned. You don't want to wait for the river to shove with the effective stack size being so small. Plus you'd be losing value from the draws that might incorrectly call a turn shove here, but will fold to a river bet after their draw misses.

Nice hand.
03-13-2009, 01:01 PM
Vinland

I was hoping that he had something like pocket 99's and figured his two pair were good. Thats why I shoved the turn. Neither of us had much left anyway.
03-13-2009, 01:08 PM
RoyalProdigy

I think you played it just fine. If hes got the spades then make him pay. 99,10-10, even JJ you have dominated here. I personally think he had A-8 and thats why you posted it? I mean he could have a set here but at 2nl this is not a bad shove at all.
03-13-2009, 01:15 PM
Vinland

Quote:

I personally think he had A-8 and thats why you posted it? I mean he could have a set here but at 2nl this is not a bad shove at all.

No he didnt have A8...if he did I would be fine because he would have got his money in with the worse hand initially and then sucked out on river...

I dont mind blowing the story b/c I've had some nice responses...
He called my pf raise with a 23o and had trip 2's when I shoved...
Gotta love micro nl.
03-13-2009, 01:19 PM
RoyalProdigy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinland

Quote:

I personally think he had A-8 and thats why you posted it? I mean he could have a set here but at 2nl this is not a bad shove at all.

No he didnt have A8...if he did I would be fine because he would have got his money in with the worse hand initially and then sucked out on river...

I dont mind blowing the story b/c I've had some nice responses...
He called my pf raise with a 23o and had trip 2's when I shoved...
Gotta love micro nl.

pf that sucks. Thats all i can say. Write down his name and stalk him....hey whats his name lol i will stalk him with you.
03-13-2009, 01:31 PM
okiman

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoyalProdigy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinland

Quote:

I personally think he had A-8 and thats why you posted it? I mean he could have a set here but at 2nl this is not a bad shove at all.

No he didnt have A8...if he did I would be fine because he would have got his money in with the worse hand initially and then sucked out on river...

I dont mind blowing the story b/c I've had some nice responses...
He called my pf raise with a 23o and had trip 2's when I shoved...
Gotta love micro nl.

pf that sucks. Thats all i can say. Write down his name and stalk him....hey whats his name lol i will stalk him with you.

Absolutely. Enjoy the long-run money he'll be donating to you.
03-13-2009, 01:46 PM
speedcake

Bet more on the flop, closer to pot. That will make a turn shove less of an over bet and will also make your required bets on turn and river smaller to get him all in if you choose not to shove turn.

Otherwise NH and ya, buy in for a full 100BB if your roll is fine for that.
03-13-2009, 03:06 PM
ArcadianRock

Yes. Always have 100bb, you're only hurting yourself by not doing it. If you're not rebuying each time because you want to limit the amount of money you lose or keep track of it, break yourself of that habit. You will lose lots more money otherwise.
03-13-2009, 03:27 PM
KeeKoLy

I like the way you played this hand, I don't put him on AA or KK either, unless you have seen him make some tricky plays in the past. Although, this would not be considered that tricky of ap lay if he indeed did have wired Aces.

Me personally, I will sandbag more against a player with not much on the table, as it seems you can more easily get the short stacks to commit everything, so he could in fact have you beat pre-flop.

However, that being said, I think you played the hand just fine.
03-13-2009, 05:41 PM
settecba

First of all, NH. Youll be getting money from this fish very easily.

In OP you mentioned no reads. I bet this guy played every hand or close since you seated. Thats enough of a read. It wouldnt change conclusions about the hand, but its worth mentioning since villains range is a lot wider than what people assumed, if thats the case.
03-13-2009, 05:43 PM
pocketfours

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcadianRock

Yes. Always have 100bb, you're only hurting yourself by not doing it. If you're not rebuying each time because you want to limit the amount of money you lose or keep track of it, break yourself of that habit. You will lose lots more money otherwise.

Why?
03-16-2009, 01:09 AM
ArcadianRock

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcadianRock

Yes. Always have 100bb, you're only hurting yourself by not doing it. If you're not rebuying each time because you want to limit the amount of money you lose or keep track of it, break yourself of that habit. You will lose lots more money otherwise.

Why?

Why not be fully stacked each time? What if you get AA with 10bb, kind of an empty win if someone wants to put you all in preF.
03-16-2009, 06:28 AM
AFchung

buyin for 100 BB's. pokerstars has an auto rebuy in case you ever go below 100 big blinds

as for the hand, i like it. a slightly bigger flop bet would've been good for shoving the turn since it'd make the turn bet closer to a PSB instead of an overbet
03-16-2009, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcadianRock

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcadianRock

Yes. Always have 100bb, you're only hurting yourself by not doing it. If you're not rebuying each time because you want to limit the amount of money you lose or keep track of it, break yourself of that habit. You will lose lots more money otherwise.

Why?

Why not be fully stacked each time?

Bankroll management for shortstacking is easier, so if you're playing 2NL and have like $5 on your account, you can buy in for $1 or even lower and grind it up