Im back and gettin feet wet at 5NL: squeeze gone wrong

I had to withdraw my roll late last year for personal reasons, was playing 25NL and getting close to 50NL before I had to put the cards down. Ive got a bit of my roll back online this week and until I have the rest of it I'm gonna be posting hands from whatever level
I have moneys online for. Not gonna count live cash as my online roll for now, so at the moment 5NL it is.

Here I maybe tried something I shouldn't at this level? A BB squeeze preflop with air. Ok villains limped, whatever. I pretty much hate how I played this hand, please feel free to tear new butthole.

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG adoha ($2.13)
CO FSF Karnage ($9.07)
BTN liuxuer ($5.38)
SB Pud1975 ($6.64)
BB Hero ($9.59)

Pre-flop: ($0.07, 5 players) Hero is BB :kd: :7h:
2 folds, liuxuer calls $0.05, Pud1975 calls $0.03, Hero raises to $0.30, liuxuer calls $0.25, Pud1975 folds

Flop: :ks: :4d: :jd: ($0.65, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.40, liuxuer calls $0.40

Turn: :as: ($1.45, 2 players)
Hero...?

raising pf here is pretty bad. that being said, i don't think c/f here would be too bad.

ya, easily the worst hand I've played since I've come back. the ONLY thing i can say is that while getting everything set up tonight I was goofing off at 2NL and I guess I thought they had raised.


either way, pretty piss poor

Well, a limp / call the pre-flop raise makes Villain look like a pretty passive player. You've represented strength so far, and you don't have air anymore, you have middle pair. I can't stand your pre-flop play at all, but unless you have a read that Villain isn't actually a weak player, I might try representing AK on the turn with something that looks like a value bet. You can always bail out of the hand if you get called or raised, right?

ya preflop i was just tryin to pick it up right there with my trash hand. after that I messed up and caught TP, but couldn't shake villain and the turn card is no good. I should have given up on the hand right then IMO...

Welcome back!

My understanding is that this is not squeeze but a standard raise. I tend to isolation raise really nitty from the blinds bc we will rarely have position. I like to keep it simple.

Thanks iPod Touch.

I love multiple posts.

3 for the price of 1! :)

I actually don't hate the pf raise if youre just trying to steal (although there isn't much to steal), and once you hit it makes sense to bet. c/f the turn though imo.

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Originally Posted by will641

raising pf here is pretty bad. that being said, i don't think c/f here would be too bad.

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exactly

You don't want to isolate limpers OOP with weak hands.

Of course you don't want to isolate limpers OOP with weak hands. But now that we've done it, we're going to shut down at the first sign of an ace?

I agree Ax is in Villain's range, but since he appears weak passive (having simply limped in and called a pre-flop raise), I suspect Kx, Jx, 4x, and even something like Qx may also be in his range. So can any 2 spades or any 2 diamonds. And we've sat there representing AK all along, on a board that now has an ace and a king on it.

Yes, you can c/f, but I'm not sure we don't have some fold equity here.

Generally speaking, the raise pf is not optimal, HOWEVER, in Theory of Poker, Sklansky specifically talks about value in sometimes raising hands like these specifically in the big blind. You wouldn't want to raise here with your worst hands like 72o, but a hand like this DOES fit the profile of raising as part of a balanced strategy. Read his book for a more thorough discussion of the reasoning. Having said that, @ these stakes and these villains, a raise here is probably getting too tricky.

At this point in the hand, you have a choice to make about what your villain really has and about what he thinks you have. He may have called your cbet because he doesn't think you hit, but you actually did. Then the ace comes, which missed you, but because you raised pre-flop, villain is more likely to give you credit for the ace. So, if you think he thinks that, you could bet to sell it and hopefully take it down now. Or, it may not be a bad play to check it because it accomplishes two things: keeps the pot small and sells your line as a slow play giving more credit that you hit your ace.

Why are we trying to turn our hand into a bluff? I don't know...I mean I guess c/c might be a tad bit better than c/f but I wouldn't turn my hand into a bluff if he's a calling station. And Jason yeah the books obviously good but I'm not sure specifically where that is in the book but everything is so situational.

Here's the reason you might turn it into a bluff-- this player limp-called pre-flop. Who does that at this stakes level? Generally weak passive players do it.

We raised pre-flop. We bet the flop. If we bet the turn, aren't we representing AK? Don't we have some fold equity here? I'm not saying blow a ton of money on this hand. But really, without any more specific read, isn't this a situation where we have a pretty decent chance of winning the hand through pure aggression?

Ok so you definitely think we are behind here no matter what?

Ok let me be more specific:
- why do we rep something when they don't care about our cards?
- if he limp/calls I put him on either Adxd or Ax with a pair after calling the flop meaning he's never folding that turn. He could have a Kx which is probably better than us. He could have a set or QT or something. If we bet, we are most likely turning our hand into a bluff because I doubt even a J calls. If we check, everything that beats us bets and I rarely think he'll turn a J into a bluff and he might bet with a K, which still could beat us. He probably checks back diamonds or a J and sometimes a K. Therefore, when he does bet, I don't feel comfortable now with my range I gave him.

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Originally Posted by kmind

Ok so you definitely think we are behind here no matter what?

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Nope. I put Villain's range up above. Ax. Kx. Jx. 4x. Perhaps Qx. Two spades. Two diamonds.

We may have some fold equity and we also may be ahead of a good part of Villain's range. And we've represented a strong hand. Heck, we even have some outs to improve our hand (a King or a 7 on the river)!

To answer the question in your second post, I am not sure if he doesn't care about our cards. Rather, I suspect he is weak-- people who limp-call pre-flop raises generally are. That ace may very well be a scare card for him as well as us. If you turn up the heat on a weak player, he may not remain a calling station-- he may decide we've got him beat and get out. Hence there may be some fold equity here.

I am not saying NECESSARILY to bet the turn; I am simply saying that there is certainly an argument, depending on what one thinks the Villain might do, to continue firing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmind

And Jason yeah the books obviously good but I'm not sure specifically where that is in the book but everything is so situational.

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I looked up that discussion and it turns out I remembered it wrong. K7o is the type of hand range you would want to semi-bluff with position. In the big blind, if you are going to semi-bluff, you would prefer to do it with some of the WORST hands, not some of the best hands you would not ordinarily play. On page 104, in the chapter "Raising before the Flop", there is a section Raising as a semi-bluff:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David Sklansky

... you should bluff with the best hands you would not ordinarily have played. But say you are in the big blind and five players call. Ordinarily you would check with all but your best hands. That is, you would play every hand.

In this situation, consider making your big semi-bluffs with your very worst hands: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/9h.gifhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/3c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/jd.gifhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/2s.gif, and the like. Keep in mind, though, that we are talking about big raises that will rarely be called: usually everyone will fold, and when they don't they will reraise you (perhaps limp-reraising with a big hand).

Choose your very worst hands because seeing a flop with those hands has less value than seeing one with a decent, but not good, hand like queen-eight suited. Since you can see the flop with certainty if you check, bluff-raising costs you that money you would make if you happened to flop great (because one way or the other you won't see a flop).

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So, using that strategy as a guide in the example posted, two mistakes were made pre-flop:
(1) Raising with a medium strength hand that had more value from checking
(2) Not raising enough to sufficiently chase out villains

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedcake

I had to withdraw my roll late last year for personal reasons, was playing 25NL and getting close to 50NL before I had to put the cards down. Ive got a bit of my roll back online this week and until I have the rest of it I'm gonna be posting hands from whatever level
I have moneys online for. Not gonna count live cash as my online roll for now, so at the moment 5NL it is.

Here I maybe tried something I shouldn't at this level? A BB squeeze preflop with air. Ok villains limped, whatever. I pretty much hate how I played this hand, please feel free to tear new butthole.

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG adoha ($2.13)
CO FSF Karnage ($9.07)
BTN liuxuer ($5.38)
SB Pud1975 ($6.64)
BB Hero ($9.59)

Pre-flop: ($0.07, 5 players) Hero is BB :kd: :7h:
2 folds, liuxuer calls $0.05, Pud1975 calls $0.03, Hero raises to $0.30, liuxuer calls $0.25, Pud1975 folds

Flop: :ks: :4d: :jd: ($0.65, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.40, liuxuer calls $0.40

Turn: :as: ($1.45, 2 players)
Hero...?

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So you never told us why you think you played this bad? If the flop was K73 would you of posted this hand and said "check out this hand I played brilliantly!"?

I agree with will.. b/f turn as played.

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Originally Posted by LawDude

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmind

Ok so you definitely think we are behind here no matter what?

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Nope. I put Villain's range up above. Ax. Kx. Jx. 4x. Perhaps Qx. Two spades. Two diamonds.

We may have some fold equity and we also may be ahead of a good part of Villain's range. And we've represented a strong hand. Heck, we even have some outs to improve our hand (a King or a 7 on the river)!

To answer the question in your second post, I am not sure if he doesn't care about our cards. Rather, I suspect he is weak-- people who limp-call pre-flop raises generally are. That ace may very well be a scare card for him as well as us. If you turn up the heat on a weak player, he may not remain a calling station-- he may decide we've got him beat and get out. Hence there may be some fold equity here.

I am not saying NECESSARILY to bet the turn; I am simply saying that there is certainly an argument, depending on what one thinks the Villain might do, to continue firing.

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I am still so confused. You keep saying we should fire more barrels because he may be weak and we want him to fold? We are representing a strong range? All of this = bluff. Why are we wanting to bet if only worse hands fold?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmind

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LawDude

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmind

Ok so you definitely think we are behind here no matter what?

---

Nope. I put Villain's range up above. Ax. Kx. Jx. 4x. Perhaps Qx. Two spades. Two diamonds.

We may have some fold equity and we also may be ahead of a good part of Villain's range. And we've represented a strong hand. Heck, we even have some outs to improve our hand (a King or a 7 on the river)!

To answer the question in your second post, I am not sure if he doesn't care about our cards. Rather, I suspect he is weak-- people who limp-call pre-flop raises generally are. That ace may very well be a scare card for him as well as us. If you turn up the heat on a weak player, he may not remain a calling station-- he may decide we've got him beat and get out. Hence there may be some fold equity here.

I am not saying NECESSARILY to bet the turn; I am simply saying that there is certainly an argument, depending on what one thinks the Villain might do, to continue firing.

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I am still so confused. You keep saying we should fire more barrels because he may be weak and we want him to fold? We are representing a strong range? All of this = bluff. Why are we wanting to bet if only worse hands fold?

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Who said only worse hands fold?

I just give up and try to check it down
this is because if he has a weak hand he's not thrilled about the ace
so he'll probably be happy to check down his jack or whatever

So I think I agree I picked a slightly too strong hand to play here and this is what got me into trouble. I checked the A because when my flop bet was called I wasn't happy. I'm out of position and have put alot of dough into the hand already. Alot of times I try to rep that turn card, but out of position I chose to slow down this time and made a shady check/call instead. then villain blows up...

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG adoha ($2.13)
CO FSF Karnage ($9.07)
BTN liuxuer ($5.38)
SB Pud1975 ($6.64)
BB Hero ($9.59)

Pre-flop: ($0.07, 5 players) Hero is BB :kd: :7h:
2 folds, liuxuer calls $0.05, Pud1975 calls $0.03, Hero raises to $0.30, liuxuer calls $0.25, Pud1975 folds

Flop: :ks: :4d: :jd: ($0.65, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.40, liuxuer calls $0.40

Turn: :as: ($1.45, 2 players)
Hero checks, liuxuer bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75

River: :6h: ($2.95, 2 players)
Hero checks, liuxuer goes all-in $3.93

Hero...?


My thinking was villain had a small PP or caught some piece of the flop and then tried to rep the A when I checked to him. His shove on the river confused me and I had him on a monster or total air. I had no reads and was kicking myself by now.