Too strong of a River R/R?

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03-10-2009, 05:57 PM
xpaand

Too strong of a River R/R?

On the flop I was trying to make it look like I was just making a weak bet.

On the turn I was thinking to slowplay him, or to see if he would play aggressive by having Ad.

My justification for the super heavy all-in was cause he had a sizable stack and people at this blind call just to see what the other person has to make such a huge raise. Is that a fair justification? What would be the way I should have bet to get the most out of the guy? His stats were 34/12/0.8.

Also, can anyone analyze how you would perceive my play from the start as to what I would have? Do I give away my hand?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($8.37)
UTG ($3.34)
MP1 ($3.91)
Hero (MP2) ($1.70)
CO ($3.09)
Button ($5.94)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, 2 folds, BB calls $0.07, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.18) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.10, BB calls $0.10

Turn: ($0.38) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets $0.16, Hero calls $0.16

River: ($0.70) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets $0.28, Hero raises to $1.36 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $1.26 | Rake: $0.08
03-10-2009, 06:07 PM
2ndline.4thstreet

I think you played this well. Chances are he's folding. I might have min raised just for the call, but if this guy is a fish he;s calling no matter what.
03-10-2009, 06:17 PM
Keith

Re: Too strong of a River R/R?

Quote:

Originally Posted by xpaand

On the turn I was thinking to slowplay him, or to see if he would play aggressive by having Ad.

You've got the 2nd nut flush and are thinking of slow playing. If hes got the nut flush with you putting money in why wouldnt he think of slow playing and let you keep bloating the pot before he goes all in on the river.Your all in in that situation is doing his work for him and isis playing into his hands. If he hasn't got the Ad then he can now fold relatively cheaply. then again some bad players at 2NL will call that with the 8d.
03-10-2009, 06:27 PM
xpaand

Sorry I don't quite understand what you're saying Keith. Correct me if I'm wrong. So, if he has the Ad, then he would slowplay me, therefore I can't use his bet sizing on the turn to signal whether he has the Ad or not. And by me going AI on the river, I'm doing exactly what he wants me to do.

So how do you suggest I try to figure out what he has before risking my stack to his possible nut flush? And yeah, I know that bad players would call with low d's and that was part of my justification for the AI.
03-10-2009, 06:40 PM
lockpull

I agree that he either has the A and is playing you..... or the best he can have is the T. He may have even had the 4d5d and was hoping for a miracle. A min raise at the end would have been best IMO. If he puts you all in, well you were ready to go all in anyway, and if he has a low diamond, or maybe even a set if he doesn't believe you, he may still call. But the bet small, bet small, ALL IN screams I have an A or K please call me.
03-10-2009, 06:51 PM
xpaand

Thanks lockpull. Last night, everytime I had a super strong hand and I raised AI, people kept calling me so it carried over to today. I think if I replayed this hand, I would just raise him by 2-3X his raise.
03-10-2009, 06:51 PM
ArcadianRock

At 2NL 7d-Ad isn't going to give the hand up unless it's to a huge raise. I think if he had the Ad he would have reraised you on the turn so I think this was a hand you weren't going to get away from.

I think you played it fine. The other diamond kind of slowed you down because he would have had the ace but this guy was trying to hit something you could tell. He probably had a lower flush.
03-10-2009, 06:55 PM
xpaand

Yeah I was 99% sure he had a lower flush. That's why I felt like I should go AI, cause I don't see too many players in $2NL being disciplined enough to drop a medium flush. Thanks for your input Arcadian.

And for some reason, I felt very confident that he didn't have Ad. Is that something I shouldn't do? I feel like it's only ONE card out of 52 that can beat me, and that I'm willing to bet $2 to see if he has one or not.
03-10-2009, 06:57 PM
loonychune

Quote:

My justification for the super heavy all-in was cause he had a sizable stack and people at this blind call just to see what the other person has to make such a huge raise.

How weak a hand can he call with just to keep you honest though? The best flush draw he can have that you beat is T:d:x.

By raising in this spot against most players you make them fold out all their marginal crap and they will call you with hands that beat you. I reckon there might be an argument for his line being indicative of a flopped set... he bets small because he wants to try to fill up but doesn't want you blowing him off the pot (but i'm not so sure i like c/c'ing with a set on this flop). In which case he gets there on the river.

I think I bet the flop for a bit more: he's not calling here because you bet 3 or 4 cents less, he's calling because he's a fish and you are expected to bet in this spot with the vast majority of your range. I probably check/call down thereafter.

Quote:

then again some bad players at 2NL will call that with the 8d.

The all-in raise is still pretty extreme. If he likes seeing showdowns, he's probably gonna pay a few more cents to do so (min-raise) but a whole dollar :shock: might make him actually think about things for a second (a second longer than he would to a min-raise).

I'm also thinking, were I bluffing in this spot with air, i'd be shoving in the hope he puts me on Ax and folds some weak diamond draw. But you definitely don't want him to do that here.

Quote:

I think if he had the Ad he would have reraised you on the turn

Villain lead the turn and hero called.
03-10-2009, 07:05 PM
xpaand

Quote:

Originally Posted by loonychune

I'm also thinking, were I bluffing in this spot with air, i'd be shoving in the hope he puts me on Ax and folds some weak diamond draw. But you definitely don't want him to do that here.

Oh that's a good point cause I never know when I'm justified to do that. What are some (I know it's impossible to say exactly when) of the necessary conditions that I can bluff with air. I mean what if he was slowplaying me and he did have the Ad.
03-10-2009, 07:18 PM
JKDS

Quote:

Originally Posted by xpaand

And for some reason, I felt very confident that he didn't have Ad. Is that something I shouldn't do? I feel like it's only ONE card out of 52 that can beat me, and that I'm willing to bet $2 to see if he has one or not.

its only one card, but there are many hands that include the ad. for instance, ad3c ad3s ad3h ad3d.

more importantly, dont bet to "see if an opponent has ___". Bet to get weaker hands to call and stronger hands to fold. In this spot, villain is never folding a stronger hand, but he may fold a weaker hand. So your job on the river is bet an amount that is likely to be called by a weaker hand. Bet too small, and you lose money because some worse hands would call more. Bet too large and you lose money because many worse hands want to fold. Exactly what to bet is further determined by how you perceive him to play his actual range. Betting really large so you give him money if he has an ace and dont get any more if he doesn't is counter intuitive.
03-10-2009, 07:35 PM
Pig_Vomit

WTF?

Bet pot every street.

Theirs ALOT of worse hands this guy is calling with especially at 2NL. Yes he might sometimes have the Ad but it's retarded to play scared in this spot.

A like the river overbet because to donks it looks like your trying to buy the pot and they will often level themselves into a call.

who ever suggested min bet needs to be spanked.
03-10-2009, 07:36 PM
xpaand

Wow that's a very good way of putting it and it really changed the way I'm viewing how I played that hand. Thanks JKDS.
03-10-2009, 08:34 PM
loonychune

Quote:

who ever suggested min bet needs to be spanked.

I think i prefer flatting actually ;)

If there are lots of hands they're calling with, the raise is lovely. But I mean, the A:d: wins, sets get there, the K:d:, Q:d:, J:d: are all missing from his hand.

It's also like, he bets so small that if his hand isn't really strong, then it's really pretty weak.
03-10-2009, 08:37 PM
Keith

this is why its called the 2nd nut flush and was one of the first hands I posted when I was at 2NL
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($2.12)
SB ($4.96)
BB ($4.84)
UTG ($2.06)
UTG+1 ($5)
Hero (MP1) ($2.63)
MP2 ($1.54)
MP3 ($2.83)
CO ($3.76)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.04, 3 folds, Button raises to $0.14, 1 fold, BB calls $0.12, UTG calls $0.12, Hero calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.57) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $0.54, Button raises to $1.98 (All-In), BB calls $1.98, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.49 (All-In), BB calls $0.51

Turn: ($7.53) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($7.53) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $7.53 | Rake: $0.35

Results:
Button mucked Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (two pair, Queens and sevens).
BB had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (flush, Ace high).
Hero mucked Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (flush, King high).
Outcome: BB won $7.18
03-10-2009, 08:54 PM
Keith

Quote:

Originally Posted by xpaand

Quote:

Originally Posted by loonychune

I'm also thinking, were I bluffing in this spot with air, i'd be shoving in the hope he puts me on Ax and folds some weak diamond draw. But you definitely don't want him to do that here.

Oh that's a good point cause I never know when I'm justified to do that. What are some (I know it's impossible to say exactly when) of the necessary conditions that I can bluff with air. I mean what if he was slowplaying me and he did have the Ad.

heres a hand from tonight. Preconditions were that I'd played about 30 hands , stacked 2 shorties and stolen the blinds a lot playing 35 28 7 ish . It wasn't quite air , but I possibly folded out some low diamond holdings or better pairs that were afraid of the flush.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($5)
Button ($14.83)
Hero (SB) ($9.78)
BB ($5.27)
UTG ($9.48)
MP ($10)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
UTG calls $0.05, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.03, BB checks

Flop: ($0.15) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks

Turn: ($0.15) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks

River: ($0.15) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $0.05, 2 folds

Total pot: $0.15 | Rake: $0

Results:
Hero didn't show 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (nothing).
Outcome: Hero won $0.15
03-10-2009, 09:14 PM
xpaand

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pig_Vomit

I like the river overbet because to donks it looks like your trying to buy the pot and they will often level themselves into a call.

Yeah this is exactly what I was thinking on the river!
03-10-2009, 09:20 PM
lockpull

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pig_Vomit

who ever suggested min bet needs to be spanked.

Why? Obviously this guy did not have him beat so was he really going to call an all in (oh wait, we already proved that he wouldn't because he, in fact, didn't) Like someone else said "the best possible hand this guy could have is Td" So we can make him put one more bet in, or possibly go all in himself to bluff which wouldn't be bad becasue we are calling that or we can go all in and get the result that happened.
03-10-2009, 09:50 PM
swiggidy

Re: Too strong of a River R/R?

Quote:

Originally Posted by xpaand

On the flop I was trying to make it look like I was just making a weak bet.

On the turn I was thinking to slowplay him, or to see if he would play aggressive by having Ad.

This is all fancy play syndrome (FPS) talk.

Bet the flop small because he'll call with any pair, most :d:x draws. If you don't think he has the Ad (for whatever reason, sometimes you can just tell), then for fucks sake raise the turn, he obviously likes his hand.

At a higher stake river is terrible (boats and Ad onlything that's calling), but I would guess it's fine at 2NL. The thing is, if he calls 25% of the time it's probably more profitable than betting smaller. But guess what, that means he folds 3 out of 4 times.
03-11-2009, 12:58 AM
xpaand

What I'm about to say is just adding to the problem of me being too fancy, but the reason I didn't bet too hard on the turn was so that he thought I was weak, so that when I r/r AI, he'd think I was trying to steal the pot so he'd call.

I know I know.. I'm playing micro stakes ONLINE. I'll try to smarten up... :(