KQs on button

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03-08-2009, 11:46 PM
jo

KQs on button

This was literally the first hand I played against this guy so no reads. What should my move be???

BB ($340.35)
UTG ($251)
MP ($544.15)
CO ($64)
Heroine (Button) ($233)
SB ($238.40)

Preflop: Heroine is Button with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
3 folds, Heroine bets $7, SB raises to $23, 1 fold, Heroine calls $16

Flop: ($48) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets $38, Heroine...
03-09-2009, 12:12 AM
IowaSkinsFan

88/call a shove
03-09-2009, 12:28 AM
ATOTHEC101

raise/call a shove, $86-90 is goot.
03-09-2009, 11:47 AM
jo

I bet 87 and called a shove.

Running bad at the moment and second guessing myself :(

Thanks for the reassurance!
03-09-2009, 06:40 PM
Galapogos

I fold preflop.
03-09-2009, 07:05 PM
bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

I fold preflop.

wtf ban, we haz teh KQsoooted
03-10-2009, 01:50 AM
Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

I fold preflop.

wtf ban, we haz teh KQsoooted

Pffft and she got stacked. Learn from experience n00b.
03-10-2009, 04:59 AM
BigPapi

In case we're even remotely serious here :P

We can't fold KQs as it's near the top of our btn opening range, if we're opening as wide as we should obv. If we start folding these hands, we're almost folding our entire range (pretty exploitable). plus we have the position postflop
03-10-2009, 08:28 AM
bode

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigPapi

In case we're even remotely serious here :P

We can't fold KQs as it's near the top of our btn opening range, if we're opening as wide as we should obv. If we start folding these hands, we're almost folding our entire range (pretty exploitable). plus we have the position postflop

first hand we've ever played against this guy, no reads, we're dominated so much by a "standard" 5-6% 3bet range. This isn't HU, and calling regularly hear with KQ (even soooooted) is a pretty big leak unless he is 3betting 8%+

as played i 3bet/get it in too, but i'm with galapagos on folding pre.
03-10-2009, 08:57 AM
BigPapi

Ah yes, in this case we have no reads at all to support our idea we're being 3bet light, so a fold is ok at first untill we verify they might be doing that in these spots. I was assuming a standard btn vs blind situation with a light 3better, which they should be if we're opening wide.
03-10-2009, 09:14 AM
Silly String

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

first hand we've ever played against this guy, no reads, we're dominated so much by a "standard" 5-6% 3bet range. This isn't HU, and calling regularly hear with KQ (even soooooted) is a pretty big leak unless he is 3betting 8%+

as played i 3bet/get it in too, but i'm with galapagos on folding pre.

I agree with this. Just so everyone knows what I feel is standard around here without a read at 200NL or <.
03-10-2009, 09:29 AM
bigspenda73

I don't get it, what range are you continuing with to a 3bet btn vs sb

I'd also open much smaller otb, pot is just a lazy way to do it.
03-10-2009, 09:53 AM
BigPapi

yeah definitely open to 3bb from btn. we'll have bigger stacks to play for postflop or we lose less when we fold to a 3bet. when we have more reads on how the blinds respond we can always adjust our size/opening range.
03-10-2009, 11:14 AM
Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

I don't get it, what range are you continuing with to a 3bet btn vs sb

With zero reads not much. If it turns out he 3-bets light from the blinds then I gladly will take a flop with KQs. But we have no clue what this guy is 3-betting with and KQs gets dominated by a standard value range.

I think getting involved here with an unknown just because it's btn vs blind is a pretty big leak.
03-10-2009, 12:00 PM
mcatdog

Reads shmeads, I'm never folding preflop.

It's quite common for a regular to start off by 3betting the shit out of someone and then tighten up once he's 3bet a few times. This is a very standard way to build a loose image and exploit it, don't fall into their trap!

Of course you don't KNOW that he's 3betting you light but he has a full stack and he's playing 1-2 6max, it's not a bad guess given how retarded aggro that game plays. Maybe you could search his name and see how many other tables he's playing. Anyway I think folding away 1/4 of a buyin until you have solid reads on everyone at the table is not a good way to start a session.
03-10-2009, 12:02 PM
mcatdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

I think getting involved here with an unknown just because it's btn vs blind is a pretty big leak.

You're either overestimating the tightness of the majority of players in that game, or underestimating the strength of KQs. It's a pretty sweet hand and it's not a "big" leak to call here against almost anyone.
03-10-2009, 12:26 PM
Silly String

I think this is level dependent. At 50NL/100NL you get owned by AK/AQ here a lot. I will add that I'm terrible at playing this type of hand if I whiff the flop vs a complete unknown, so that reduces my EV in this spot.

Any tips on reacting to a 1/2-3/4 cbet on a J:heart: 6:spade: 5:club: vs an unknown?
03-10-2009, 02:27 PM
bode

mcat how exactly are we folding away a 1/4 of a buyin by losing 3bbs?
03-10-2009, 02:32 PM
jo

Wow, I'm surprised this thread kept going. I thought pre was debatable. With my stronger hands I tend to play them against unknowns until I know they are tight players. With my weaker hands I tend to fold them against unknowns until I know they are loose players.

I usually vary my bet size in earlier position, but become more consistent towards the later positions. I go back and forth on whether that 0.5BB has much of an effect an my results or on how my opponents play.

As for Silly String's example flop, I'd fold. If an unknown is c-betting me OOP, I want something more than overs and a backdoor. Maybe that's a bigger leak than calling in the first place!
03-10-2009, 02:35 PM
bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

mcat how exactly are we folding away a 1/4 of a buyin by losing 3bbs?

I think Mike was referring to the long-term effect of folding 85%+ of hands we open the button with to a 3bet.
03-10-2009, 02:36 PM
jo

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

mcat how exactly are we folding away a 1/4 of a buyin by losing 3bbs?

Ooh, I think I know the answer to this.

Let "buyin" = x

If 1/4 * x = 3, then

1 * x = 3 * 4

x = 12

Tada! "buyin" must exactly equal 12.
03-10-2009, 03:05 PM
bigspenda73

14 in your case!
03-10-2009, 04:05 PM
bode

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

mcat how exactly are we folding away a 1/4 of a buyin by losing 3bbs?

I think Mike was referring to the long-term effect of folding 85%+ of hands we open the button with to a 3bet.

well i'm certainly not advocating folding 85% to 3bets, thats obv a huge mistake, but there are better hands to call with without a read.
03-11-2009, 02:20 PM
mcatdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

mcat how exactly are we folding away a 1/4 of a buyin by losing 3bbs?

I think Mike was referring to the long-term effect of folding 85%+ of hands we open the button with to a 3bet.

well i'm certainly not advocating folding 85% to 3bets, thats obv a huge mistake, but there are better hands to call with without a read.

Which hands are better to call with? You need to list at least 15% of the hands you open on the button in order to support your statement.
03-11-2009, 04:13 PM
nutsinho

lol at folding preflop. why do we need reads to call with a slightly non premium hand? if we have no reads it is correct to assume the player is positionally aware and playing like a reg at those limits until we have info to the contrary. it is not correct to assume the player is very tight until shown otherwise.
03-13-2009, 09:44 PM
Renton

calling flop seems superior to raise
03-13-2009, 09:59 PM
dev

Renton with the re-hijack...

Aren't we worried about getting blown off on the turn? It seems to me with this kind of a hand the turn can really hurt us if it's a blank and we see another bet from SB.
03-13-2009, 10:41 PM
IowaSkinsFan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

calling flop seems superior to raise

Why do you think so?
03-13-2009, 11:24 PM
Fnord

Calling sets up a bad SPR for us on the turn.
03-13-2009, 11:24 PM
Renton

high implied odds, unlikely to be barreled on a blank, backdoor flush draw, etc
03-14-2009, 01:07 PM
AlKo4g7iC

definitely don't fold i would re raise actually to be honest with about 1 and a half more than his bet to try and get him to fold.

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