Value bet.
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Value bet.
I'm going to just use this thread to increase my post count...FIRST!
lol it's true though if you think about it. I can't count how many buy-ins I've probably just pissed away trying to bluff idiots who can't read hands.
I could go on writing 6 pages about the topic but I figured it would be easier to just get to the point.
You're right. I never bluff down here in the basement. They'll just call on a draw anyway...and catch it. So bleh, VALUE BET!
See I was playing tonight and my session came off to a rough start. I took a break, sat down in the lazyboy and just blanked. I sat for 15 minutes or so doing absolutely nothing, I just thought about poker.
Then this thought crept into my head: Why the fuck am I b/e over 7500 hands at 10nl.........?
Then I replayed some big hands I lost in my head, and also thought about all those small pots I kept donating in. What was I doing wrong?
ooops...I was just betting. I wasn't betting for any purpose - in fact, I don't think I asked myself once whether I was betting for value or bluffing - - - doing this is key.
See, I've read all this crap about 'just value-bet at micros etc' but I guess it never really sunk in. Now that I finally woke the fuck up and realized I'd be $50 richer if I wasn't a spewtard, I figure I should remind anyone who's playing at these stakes not to forget you're betting for value most of the time. There's a really good thread on 2+2 I read recently, although I'm not sure If we're allowed to post links to other forums so I won't bother but feel free to pm me if you want it. It's a really good guide to postflop play.
Lesson learned. Value-bet, value-bet, value-bet. If you're going to bluff, pick good spots, don't just push the chips in.
Perhaps this should have been the post to start the thread.
this thread appears just when i spewed when betting without a purpose
thanks for helping me think :D
Sometimes all it takes is one little reminder. I'm one of those people who suffer from this weird brain condition where I tend to forget the smallest detail of advice from time to time that actually turns out to be critical in successfully completing a task, so I posted this here to help people like me.Quote:
Originally Posted by clvacva
Yeah, 2+2 has good stuff. I have to catch up on some reading...though I think I'm going to do that at the tail-end of my quest to $200.
Thanks Micro. That was a great post. It's so true and I do the exact same thing. My BR would probably be WAY higher right now if I read this (and understood it and implemented it) when I first began playing seriously.
i think this is one of my biggest leaks at this level...
if im running bad and tilting, or maybe running good and am over-confident, i can find myself playing a much wider range of hands from bad spots in a laggtard type of way, trying to run ultra cool plays and bluffs, and of course it doesnt work.
I agree.. we need to focus more on playing better hands from better spots, and bet for value, causing mistakes from others on almost every street. :mischief: excellent...
I think you're absolutely right.
I gave my homegame buddies $10 to start with on starts. Each one is almost at or over $100 two weeks later. They have no clue what they're doing. They run like 30/15 50/10... but when they have a hand they bet like their life depends on it, and they almost never bluff except for a c-bet. I expect them to c/c a 15 outer on the flop, cuz theyz stoopid, but they'll be all-in by the river if they have TPGK or better, and that alone is enough to beat the micros.
Bet your hands, people!
I reckon i'm ahead vs idiot in question at least 85% of the time. He gets lucky and draws to Aces up sometimes but he's calling flop, turn, river bets with middle pair and any Ax. So why not bet this river? :(
PokerStars Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG+1 ($22.50)
MP1 ($38.65)
Hero (MP2) ($29.15)
MP3 ($29.15)
CO ($25)
Button ($35.30)
SB ($18.25)
BB ($25.35)
UTG ($25)
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero bets $1.10, 2 folds, Button calls $1.10, 3 folds
Flop: ($2.80) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1.50, Button calls $1.50
Turn: ($5.80) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $4, Button calls $4
River: ($13.80) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks :( , Button checks :cry:
Total pot: $13.80 | Rake: $0.65 :( :(
I would probably check back the turn here then value bet the river. You don't want to force out a Kx hand here (trust me, they will call the flop lol, but probly not a double barrel) and if you check the turn then bet around pot on river they call with more trash than you would be believe just to "keep you honest."Quote:
Originally Posted by loonychune
Erpel or Doan Diggy (can't remember which right now lol) posted a really good link in my op about checking back the turn with TPGK type hands and that it is often a more profitable play then just bet/bet/bet because you don't force out all his crap range.
Anywho, good post Micro, some peeps still need to here it from time to time (my own self included, but not lately ;)). It's all about about the basic fellas. Now go out there and GET SOME!!! lol
hard to check back the turn when we're OOP, I'd go for 3 streets, something smaller on the turn and river. I like the flop bet size but I don't like the turn sizing
I'm into this!
Value betting!
How will he play if he has ACE + higher kicker?
I like to check on the turn in the above case or some bett>not to heavy, letting him come with his maybe pair of kings.
Against some opponents I might look to check behind the turn and c/c down, usually against the sort of player who likes having the initiative and calls flops with the intention of bluffing later streets. But against my opp., who calls down with middle pair and any Ax (that's any Kx and any Ax), which bit of his range that I might get value from on the river does he fold to a turn bet?
Do you think a smaller bet is more likely to string him along? Is it to do with betting less in case he raises?Quote:
I like the flop bet size but I don't like the turn sizing
i cant lie ive been a total spewtard for the last two days. Its really bad i gotta tighten up my game. I'm fuckin double barreling everything believeing nobody throwing caution to the wind. lol. I dont have a problem with value betting i have a problem when people pull the min raising on my valuebet. Hard to get away from a min raise and because im aggresive lol i more ofton then not always think about going over the top. I think about it but i dont do it ever, i usually just the make the call unless of course i have the nuts. I was gettin aces cracked AI preflop like crazy yesterday. guy would raise, i would 3 bet hed reraise i push flip over nines he spikes a nine. same with queens and this one and guy pushed with K-J and hit two pair. I've been very unlucky for the past two day but somehow im up a little. im only playing 2nl on stars just getting started. its a slow grind.
Keep in weaker hands like Kx or worse Ax. Smaller bet on the turn will make your value bet/blocker bet on the river smaller so yes if you get raised on the turn you can dump it without risking as many chips. If you bet too big on the turn villain may not be interested in his hand if it's weaker than yours. Keeping the pot under control with you have a marginal top/pair type hand is important so you don't end up having to stack off on the river.Quote:
Originally Posted by loonychune
That was me :). The caveat was that if opp will call 3 streets with a hand that can't beat top pair (e.g. Kx or QQ), then bet bet bet with TPGK is almost certainly the right play.Quote:
Originally Posted by dranger7070
In the hand in question, I'm definitely putting in a river value bet. We were already losing to AJ anyways (and now the likelihood of that hand has gone down), so all we're really worried about is KJ and maaaybe QT. There are so many Ax, Kx, and even QJ or JT hands calling us here (well, villain-dependent) that I think we have to bet like $4-6 on the river. Otherwise, what are we hoping for? That villain will bluff or check behind with a better hand? Against a stationy player, check/calling here is bad because we're beat like every time when villain bets, so bet/folding is much, much better. And stations will actually call here with KJ, AJ, or even JJ simply because they don't have the nuts, so I wouldn't be too worried about a raise. If villain does raise, he at least has KJ (more likely AJ, JJ, QT, or a set he's been slowplaying all along), so we can fold pretty easily.
I actually thought this post was a joke unil I started reading the whole thing. I never seem to get paid off for my made hands. I think that I may be pricing people out of the pots. I am always worried that I will get outdrawn that I try to take the pot down right away. Maybe, I will string them along a little better after reading this.
This is my first post but I have been reading on here for about two weeks. Thanks for all of the good advice because I need it. I have turned my BR of $104 into a BR of $96 in the last month. No traction.
I can't help but also think of a 2+2 post I read recently when looking at this discussion which was exactly on the topic of value betting.
The important thing is to understand when you are betting for value. Simply betting out whenever the action is on you is not a value bet. Simply betting out when the action is on you and you have a piece of the board is not a value bet. Simply betting out when the action is on you and you have TP or better is not a value bet.
A bet is a value bet when you have at least a basic understanding what kind of hands your opponent can have and expect that you will be called by enough hands that you beat that betting out in the first place is +EV.
Bet sizing is a wonderful discussion to tack onto a discussion of value bets (thanks Spenda). A basic princple here is that the villain might not call with worse very often if you bet big - but might call with worse if you bet a bit smaller. This results in using a specific bet size to manipulate the villain's hand ranges to contain hands that are weaker than yours and from which you get additional value.
When thinking about bet sizes there are some important considerations.
What is the biggest bet size that much weaker hands will call?
What is the smallest bet size we can get away with betting for value without seeming weak and being bet into as a bluff?
What is the biggest bet size that our opponents second-best hands are likely to call?
What bet size is likely to fold out hands stronger than yours?
What bet size will fold out too many hands weaker than yours that you are no longer betting for value?
Often you can define a bet size range that will have approximately the same behaviour for a villain and you can decide what amount to bet inside that range to optimise your EV.
And as Spenda pointed out position can also need to influence your bet sizes. When you are OOP you often need to bet something like TPTK three streets in order not to give up the initiative and be pushed off the hand where in position you would prefer only to bet two streets - with the implied logic that if you end up playing for three streets you are typically not a favourite to have the best hand. By betting smaller OOP you may achieve a level of pot control so the final pot is closer to where you want it to be while also manipulating the IP opponents hand range to contain more hands that you beat making it overall more profitable.
It is absolutely crucial to understand why you are betting and what you are trying to accomplish with your betting. Not understanding why you're betting is like being approached by a stranger in the street who tells you: "If you'd like to gamble give me $10" - you give him $10 and he tells you: "Shame, you lost." The fact that in poker you will often win when you bet for no reason and have positive reinforcment as a result does nothing to detract from the validity of the outrageous example. You don't know if the bet is +EV or -EV and yet you bet.
great blog !! and thanks for the info ....now ill try that LOL !!
gl all....
wh
It seems a lot of players are stuck at 2NL. I've seen players blame Renton's guide to beating 2NL.
Seriously, what is said in the first post in this thread by m2m is all you need to know to get out of 2NL, 5NL, and maybe even 10NL.
Stop bluffing. Stop worrying about 3betting lightly. Stop worrying about balancing.
Just value bet.
uh oh, someone delete this thread before the games get tougher
Haha. I opened this to see if indeed the answer was "value bet"... and it was, go figure. The micros aren't that fucking difficult. You just have to kind of sit on your hands a lot. Anyone with half a brain and the will to succeed should be able to get to 50nl in no time. The problem with the Q&A of this thread title is that there's so many players that can't decipher between a good value bet, thin value bets, and semi-bluffs. The other side of the coin is that you have to put villains on a range to know whether said bet is for value or not. If you struggle with hand ranges, you will constantly be lost with one-pair decisions on the turn/river and the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro2Macro
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ge-t92163.html
This thread delivers!
Honestly I'm up over 60 bucks from showdown winnings at 2NL in only 16000 hands. But my profit is only like 16 because my redline is AWFUL. Why is it awful? Because I bluff multiple streets. A few things to think about.
I think one problem that a lot of us micro-players have is that we see these other higher stakes hands and videos where there is talk about double barreling, range balancing, and opening up your range. Honestly, I don't feel like most of that applies to at least 2 and 5 NL. There is really no point in opening a hand like J9 on the button if the blinds are 50/4 players like so many micros are. Sure, at the higher levels J9o, QTo, Axo are acceptable button and CO opens in 6m but at 2 and 5NL unless your blinds are running like 10/2 opening is probably not going to be b/e. I think tightening opening ranges is paramount and then like everyone else has said, Cbet only really obvious Cbettable flops if you are stealing and viciously valuebet when you flop a hand. A final thought, vs those extremely passive fishy players who are like 35/2/36AgFactor, there is not a hand besides the nuts that is too good to fold to their annoying min-raises.
I can attest from personal experience of the last 4 days. The first 2 I ran quite well but I also only played hands when I had them and was very tight otherwise and I ran about 60BB/100 for 2k hands for about 15 or so buy ins. In the last two days I got overconfident in my play and started up with the ol' FPS terribad poker. Yes, I ran worse, but my redline (winnings without showdown) which had been about break even for the last two or three days, dropped a good 5 or 6 buy ins over around the same sample size even though my blue line (winnings with showdown) continued to steadily climb.
Lesson learned: Stop trying to out play people who are too bad to be out played. You just end up letting them out play you even though they don't know it.
I beg to differ. This is exactly the reason you should open hands like J9, Q8, K7, T8, etc. because they'll call you with worse. Play the board, put him on a range and act accordingly. You don't have bet every flop and you don't have to barrel all the way to the river. But opening these types of hands can and should be profitable against these types of players from 2nl to the nosebleeds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donachello
I would never 3 barrel in micros and rarely 2 barrel.
The only time I would 2 barrel is if I notice someone playing in a similar fashion and a nice phat overcard peels off on the turn and I still have what I think won't win a showdown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sk8r_daniel
then you won't ever beat the micros and move up.
I'm accepting donations if you wanna ship your BR to me instead donating it to some random.
I often open ATC against 50/4/1's when I attack their blinds from btn.
It's very controversial strategy, but threebarreling most boards against them IS profitable.
satisfactoryQuote:
Originally Posted by Leo_God
and OP your sample size is too large
Not so much contoversial as just plain stupid. Your average 50/4/1 at the micros is going to be a complete and utter station both preflop and post flop. Your strategy agaist someone who doesn't like to fold with any part of the board is to fire 3 barrells all the time with a very weak range?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrax
Open a ton on the buttom if they're fit or fold postflop, if they're total stations then don't open shit like 62o ffs, but open stuff that can flop top pair or has some sort of potential to make hands you can value bet vs their stationy nature - T8o, J7s, shit like that will play fine vs these tards who'll call down reatdredly light. You can still c-bet such players as well when you miss, hell c bet them all day as even the most loose passive will still fold to c-bets when they miss completely, and their range will be wide enough that they will miss completely pretty often. But please, when these guys have a pair or whatever and have called the flop, don't auto triple barrel them every time you have air - this i the surest way to fail miserably at ever beating the micros. Never firing more than one barrel when you have bad equity is a far better strategy vs 50/4 stations than often firing three streets.
I doubt there's a single secret to beating micros, but learning to let people give you their money certainly helps. This isn't one thing either. For instance, if you learn to spot those people who play LAG but only single-barrel when they don't hit, you can take away a lot of pots on the turn by floating them in position on the flop, or by calling with second and third pair hands you'd fold against someone tight.
Another example is the chronic over-bluffer who you can call light once you're recognized this tendency.
The trick is to know when NOT to bluff and pick the right opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
- stacks deepish
- villain scared of implied threat
- goodish image
- wide enough folding range
If opponent is known for calling down 3barrels with pairs or draws that river small pairs, then don't bluff past turn obv, but VB thinner and bigger on river.
Having WTSD/W$SD on hud really helps there.
Ok as long as everyone else is admitting it, I will stand up and confess I spew way too many of my chips on bluffs too. I checkraise huge and expect these callfish to actually recognize the meaning of the move or to pay attention to bet sizes. Then when they call, my ego tells me I have to fire big on the next street(s) and this costs me way too much. As OP said, if I cut this one leak from my game, I would be waaaay more in the black. I guess it's just too boring waiting for an actual hand at the micros.
Great thread.
ChezJ
If you lack patience, poker may not be the game for you.
this obvQuote:
Originally Posted by HunabQ
Perfect thread to be added to the digest, no?
As much as I love this thread, not really. The discussion ITT is pretty retarded.
yeah, kinda tapered off after my first post