Can You Fold This?

bencaat is 61.45/2.41 over 83 hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 ($0.88)
CO ($0.42)
Button ($5.90)
SB ($2.47)
BB ($3.11)
UTG ($4.90)
UTG+1 ($4.25)
MP1 ($16.14)
Hero (MP2) ($6.22)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ks.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/kh.gif
2 folds, MP1 bets $0.04, Hero raises to $0.14, 4 folds, BB calls $0.12, MP1 raises to $0.24, Hero raises to $0.65, 1 fold, MP1 raises to $1.06, Hero raises to $6.22 (All-In), MP1 calls $5.16
Total pot: $12.59 | Rake: $0.60

or.....
not push 200bb over top of the last bet?

Think about why you're asking this question, and what you actually hope to gain from an answer.

A good rule is never fold your kings and always shove them if you get the chance.

But if you want to fold them, I wouldn't rely on HUD statistics to do it-- you need enough personal experience with this player to know that he will never go this far except with aces. You are ahead of every single hand except one, and there's a 1 in 200 chance that the other player has that hand.

You got a pair of kings, how come to fold? let us say what we have on the table then make a movement.

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

Think about why you're asking this question, and what you actually hope to gain from an answer.

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I'm actually not asking to make myself feel better or anything. I just wanted to raise the question of whether kings are foldable PF or not. There are different takes on this question...

my aim with kings is to get it AI pre flop...

There's only one hand you're afraid of. AI when you can. Even if he only plays with the top 2% of hands

POKERSTOVE

KK: 60%
R: 40%

I might just flat his 6-bet(?) or more likely his 4-bet? We don't want only AA coming along preflop here, note that you're deep - let's play some poker. If the effective stack is only 100bb I would try and get it all in though.

what hands is villain willing to put 300bbs in with? are there any hands worse than AA? is it at all likely that this particular villain would do this with QQ, KK, or AK (or :gasp: worse)?

I think the only time you should fold KK is when you feel like another player would not go that aggressive PF without AA. If a player is playing conservative, and he never goes AI, then he goes AI PF, I would think about folding my hand if he re-raised me huge. But then at low limits, it's pretty hard to tell if you don't have a good long read on a player...

can't fold after you 5b
but 300BB deep fourbets are certainly callable
the question is: does AK or QQ call a shove? If yes or "sometimes" then shove

I just don't think that PF AA is going to come up often enough against KK (it does happen still...) that it's profitable to fold it after a 4-bet, you could flat call it but if an A comes up it puts you in a WA/WB situation.

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Originally Posted by ArcadianRock

I just don't think that PF AA is going to come up often enough against KK (it does happen still...) that it's profitable to fold it after a 4-bet, you could flat call it but if an A comes up it puts you in a WA/WB situation.

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It isn't a matter of how often AA comes up preflop. Villain has pretty much turned his cards up - at least narrowed his range very, very significantly by 4-betting us, so AA makes up a big part of that range. How often AA shows up now in this situation is the fact that needs to be considered.

By carelessly shoving our deep stack in preflop we may only be getting called with AA. By not jamming an insane amount of bb's into the pot preflop we still allow weaker hands in villains range to come for the ride. Given the 4-bet out of someone who doesn't really raise preflop to begin with is a strong indicator that his 4-bet range is the near nuts here. By being so eager to get KK all-in preflop after facing a 4-bet from someone who just doesn't raise, we're essentially turning KK into a bluff (repping aces). Some of you may disagree, but I don't think pushing into a player who rarely raises preflop after he's 4-bet you is a good idea unless you have the nuts.

If an ace comes on the flop I don't think it changes the fact that we're either WA or WB. It'll just make it a bit more obvious once we see the line villain takes in repsonse to that sort of flop. If villain shows he's fearing the ace, we may be able to take him off KK and win a pot we're otherwise chopping. If flop comes QQx or JJx, depending on the villain (although I doubt anyone has learned how to fold AA at 2nl yet) you may be able to bluff him off his hand. Certainly not this guy of course, but for other scenerios when facing a super-tight raiser it's definately a possibility.

Well that's just it. If this guy is dedicated to his hand and probably isn't folding it how are you supposed to play him? True he might have AA if that's the only hand he'll play but the question is if he's ready to get it in PreF do you want to have to fold KK if that A comes up PostF. Is he the type that C-bets?

When I'm up against a very tight player I probably would flat call QQ hoping for the board to hit low but at $2NL very tight includes JJ+ AKo+ AKs+ and just looking at the equity KK is a clear favorite here.

The possibility is always there, no doubt so perhaps shoving there or flat calling is the right choice but if you know he has a mega hand unless you hit your set you still have no idea what you're up against.

Like I said before if the board hits low and he shoves are you going to fold it because it's the same information you're being given Preflop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu_moia-oVI

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Originally Posted by ArcadianRock

Well that's just it. If this guy is dedicated to his hand and probably isn't folding it how are you supposed to play him? True he might have AA if that's the only hand he'll play but the question is if he's ready to get it in PreF do you want to have to fold KK if that A comes up PostF. Is he the type that C-bets?

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I call and see a flop. We have position so we are at a bit of an advantage here when it comes to finding out where we're at.
Because this hand didn't go into postlflop action, I can't really give any input on what line to take because there are a shit load of different flop combinations, each leading to a different course of action.

As for 'do I want to fold my KK if the ace comes on the flop'. Well this depends again how villain plays postlfop. If he's the type to just give up on the turn if he hasn't hit that ace, float him all day. The fact that we have position in this hand and we are deep is a huge reason to end pf action at 4bets. Let's see a flop.

If the flop comes all raggy it depends on how the game has been going, but either flatting or raising somewhere from flop to river sounds like you'll either find out where you're at or control the size of the pot. Rememeber we can always fold KK postlfop. There's nothing saying we have to go with it till the river.

I doubt villain isn't c-betting near 100% here. In fact, if he checks, I think we need to worry more than him leading since we may very well be looking at a trap c/r. Again, too many factors to consider since we don't know what flop is.

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When I'm up against a very tight raiser I probably would flat call QQ hoping for the board to hit low but at $2NL very tight includes JJ+ AKo+ AKs+ and just looking at the equity KK is a clear favorite here.

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FYP. If someone is loose but never raises, and then all of a sudden comes in for a raise, they basically just transformed their range into that of a tight player who doens't do all the limping.

This sounds good. But let's think deeper. Think about the villains range and how each bet he makes gives information or clues as to what he's opening with.

For instance, this villain has a PFR of roughly 3%. Let's just say 4% because we probably don't quite have a great sample for that 2. whatever to be correct. You mentioned we're ahead of his range preflop, correct:

According to Pokerstove: Top 4% of hands = 99+,AQs+,AKo+.

Okay so right away by this player opening (assuming he is not deviating from this range) we know his exact range. We don't know what his exact hand is. Against this range we are a 70/30 fav'. So we 3-bet and THEN, villain 4-bets. Okay now we don't have the precise numbers here again, but let's say this guy will only 4-bet QQ+,AK. We're roughly a 57/42 favourite. However, if we shove our deepstack, Let's assume we only get called my KK+.

Uh-oh. We're 77/22 dog now and bound to lose our $6 deepstack more than we win. Yikes! I didn't run the precise math on this, but I doubt it's going to make up for all the times he folds AK/QQ. In fact, as played I don't think we're getting 5-bet with AK or QQ with someone who raises less than 3% of hands to begin with.

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The possibility is always there, no doubt so perhaps shoving there or flat calling is the right choice but if you know he has a mega hand unless you hit your set you still have no idea what you're up against.

Like I said before if the board hits low and he shoves are you going to fold it because it's the same information you're being given Preflop.

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Not necessarily about the same info part, his shoving range on the flop may be tighter than his re-raising range preflop (i.e. only AA or something). We already know his range is super strong. By shoving into him we only narrow his range even further than it already is. I believe there is more value in seeing a flop in the scenerio of facing a super tight raiser, especially a super-tight 4-bettor. He was making weak ass re-raises preflop so I highly doubt he's just open shoving a low flop. He'll probably underbet to the river, so we can just call him down. IF he does happen to shove, put him on a shoving range, run it through stove, and figure out if you have odds to call.



If some of this doesn't make sense I'll edit or someone can bash some of it or whatever. It's late here.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu_moia-oVI

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heh, not sure the exact implication of this but great timing Fnord!
I'm generally not one to give up either...this thread could last awhile.

Villain min-raises, min-4bets, min-6bets. Is that the only bet size he knows or is he deliberately making a raise as small as possible to increase the chances that you continue in the hand?

I don't think I like shoving here pre. My spidey senses would suspect AA too much with the min-raises. I generally like to disappoint people. If I feel very strongly that someone is trying to get me to call I tend to weight the part of their range that want to see a call.

The question for me is whether I'm flatting the 4bet or the 6bet. I'd love to flat the 4b and play some poker against AA with position and an SPR of 12, but I just don't think by the 4bet my spidey senses have kicked in yet. Doubtless he has a very narrow range at the 4bet, but it's still wider than just AA.

In post-play analysis I think we can play KK very favourably against a narrow range if we flat the 4b. We can represent a wider range of flops (both straight and flush draws) as well as hit our set. On most flops without A or Q I'd be prepared to try to manipulate my perceived range to enable him to fold AA if I think he's capable of that. Similarly, I would be prepared to consider that my KK might not be best.

In a 6b pot SPR is 2.5 and I'm almost committed on the flop. The opponent range is much more narrow (and more heavily weighted towards AA) and I struggle to identify flops and situations where I can get away from it post.

I've been flatting 3 and 4 bets sometimes in position with hands like KK, and I think this thread really helps me understand why it's sometimes a good idea to do before the stacks become shallow compared to the pot. Particularly in position. And particularly when you are very very deep.

I don't think flatting KK is correct as a rule, but when you do it it should be done because there is enough money behind to play poker post flop, you are in position and your opponent has a very narrow range that you are not a significant favourite against.

Alternately, it could be done when the opponent range is still wide, there is a low SPR and you think he'd fold too often when you raise/shove preflop and is more inclined to pay you off if he gets to see a flop.

All very opponent dependent.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu_moia-oVI

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/thread.

I'd say call the 4bet. If he's got a hand worth 4betting he'll be c-betting 100% of the time. Either there's an ace on the flop and you can believe him and toss the KK, or there's no ace and you can shove over his c-bet and pray they're not Aces. I really don't see any way to avoid getting it all in sans an A on the flop.

It's also $2, so you never know what he's willing to push with. The stats suggest he isn't going to push with crap, but he could have just been card dead for the last 83 hands (we've all been there, it's not that uncommon). If he's card dead for 83 hands and watches two Queens slide into his pocket, he may be ready to push it all in regardless of what others do.

People are seriously writing 1k word responses to this?

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Originally Posted by BooG690

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

Think about why you're asking this question, and what you actually hope to gain from an answer.

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I'm actually not asking to make myself feel better or anything. I just wanted to raise the question of whether kings are foldable PF or not. There are different takes on this question...

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YOU PUSHED. Foldable would imply he made a ridiculous nth bet, but he didn't, you did.

Listen to swiggidy. Is KK foldable to a min 6-bet w/ huge implied odds even to simply hit a set? NO!

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

I might just flat his 6-bet(?) or more likely his 4-bet? We don't want only AA coming along preflop here, note that you're deep - let's play some poker. If the effective stack is only 100bb I would try and get it all in though.

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This.

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

YOU PUSHED. Foldable would imply he made a ridiculous nth bet, but he didn't, you did.

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So you're saying that because he was min-raising, I would have no reason to fold? There's no reason/way I should put him on aces and give up my hand? I don't get why I'm catching slack for asking this...it's obviously a topic that has some discussion to it.

You're catching... slack?

This topic has been covered over and over. The reason this thread has gotten so long is because people are very frustrated when there are so many good answers here and they're just not being accepted. In one ear and out the other.

Read through the thread and if there's something you don't get, ask about that.

If you searched for the answer before posting this thread, you'd see that this is one of the threads that repeats itself monthly.

well as soon as he doubled my 32x rereraise sirens woulda been going off like crazy. When he went to 24c as you can see i woulda doubled to 48c and if he doubled that im just gonna call. I'm not gonna throw them away because he min raised the initial blind....With aces?......its unlikely but possable. With that said his range is AA AK QQ. you have the cowboys so the odds him having that are slim to none. I would try to outplay the guy after the flop. Your a deepstack playing into a deeper stack. All of the information that is given to us is he has aces. So i dont know why you went all in. I woulda treated my kings as if they were nines. Hope to hit a set if i call or just muck em. If your unsure if the man has aces and hes minraising you minraise him back. Play his game and just push back, or you can 3 bet like you did face a min raise to 50bb know he has aces and shove anyway. lol. as soon as he raised to 24c you shoulda known something was up thats 12bb so min raising him back 12bb wouldnt be a bad move then he minraises back well you can pretty much know. Call hope to hit a set or just muck em. I know its kowboys and bla bla bla but hey if your beat your beat. Sometimes its better to worry about fold equity.

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Originally Posted by RoyalProdigy

well as soon as he doubled my 32x rereraise sirens woulda been going off like crazy. When he went to 24c as you can see i woulda doubled to 48c and if he doubled that im just gonna call. I'm not gonna throw them away because he min raised the initial blind....With aces?......its unlikely but possable. With that said his range is AA AK QQ. you have the cowboys so the odds him having that are slim to none. I would try to outplay the guy after the flop. Your a deepstack playing into a deeper stack. All of the information that is given to us is he has aces. So i dont know why you went all in. I woulda treated my kings as if they were nines. Hope to hit a set if i call or just muck em. If your unsure if the man has aces and hes minraising you minraise him back. Play his game and just push back, or you can 3 bet like you did face a min raise to 50bb know he has aces and shove anyway. lol. as soon as he raised to 24c you shoulda known something was up thats 12bb so min raising him back 12bb wouldnt be a bad move then he minraises back well you can pretty much know. Call hope to hit a set or just muck em. I know its kowboys and bla bla bla but hey if your beat your beat. Sometimes its better to worry about fold equity.

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I personally agree that kings are foldable. However, I read in HoH that kings should be treated like aces. I disagree and think they should be, as you said, treated as nines and hope you hit a flop. I folded kings once to aces...but never again after reading that. Maybe I will play them differently next time?

Well against a deeper stack then i think you should play them a bit differently, unless of course he's being a bully and you have a read on him. but say the guy has 2 bucks, put em in. I mean even 3 id probably put them in. But you never want to be down to felt when your a deepstack. I mean it happens but you want to avoid it at all costs. Just because a book says do this do that dosnt mean you should expecially when you have a read (i know you know that). The book should be guidelines but nothing is set in stone. I'm not saying you should fold kings consistently everytime your faced with this choice. I'm saying theres ways to get more information and you have to go with the information you have and make the correct choice based on that information, not what a book says or a set in stone strategy. I only think you should have played them like i said above because of his stack, and his minraising is saying i have aces and i dont want to scare him so if i keep minraising i can just build the pot build the pot build the pot. I only push with aces when i know someone is gonna call me AI which usually it happens like this a 4x from me a reraise from someone else i either minraise or 3 bet depending on the type of player, depends if i smell QQ or KK in vilians hand, and i go from there. I usually get my aces cracked flip out and smash my pc. lmao jk. no but this is just boarder line of whats right and whats wrong. You coulda kept the pot a little smaller to see a flop and try to outplay him. Its a tough choice against a bigstack, against a small stack its not a choice at all.

Kings are foldable, but let's at least see a flop so the absolute weakest line next to folding preflop we can take can be chosen (set-mining).

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Originally Posted by BooG690

I personally agree that kings are foldable. However, I read in HoH that kings should be treated like aces. I disagree and think they should be, as you said, treated as nines and hope you hit a flop. I folded kings once to aces...but never again after reading that. Maybe I will play them differently next time?

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hahahahahahahaahahahahahaha

When playing kings, I find myself much more satisfied lately when I flat 4-bets (and even 3-bets sometimes) and then get it in on a T-high board. If I lose to aces at that point, oh well, but at least I gave myself a chance to beat QQ and JJ.

Lately I've been experimenting with stacking off preflop less against reasonable villains. That means that against 3-bets, I'll often flat with like TT+ (AA about half the time). This makes it a lot harder for villain to play correctly because it's hard to know what part of my range I'm going to be showing up with. If we instead decided to 4/5-bet, it makes it easy for villain to only get it in with the best of it.

If I have Kings and you have Aces, I say nice hand and pay it off.

I play far too aggressivly to fold kings pre-flop without a sick read AND deep money.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

I play far too aggressivly to fold kings pre-flop without a sick read AND deep money.

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This is a very good point. How you play your big hands is highly-dependent on how you play all around. If you only 3-bet QQ+ and sometimes AK and you are up against a good opponent, then his 4-bet is almost certainly almost only AA with some KK mixed in. If you 3-bet lightly, though, and even 4-bet bluff on occasion, then KK becomes an easy shove.

Just make sure that you play your big hands in a way that is maximally profitable taking into consideration the way you play all your hands.