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Granted I don't have the Bankroll for $50NL, but I am scared to move up. Playing $25NL the money seems too high for my comfort zone, even though I am still making money. Also I've played $100NL at the casinos before, but for some odd reason I do not feel comfortable playing $25NL, let alone moving up to play $50NL.
Anyone else had a similar experience? And how did you deal with it? I'm a college student, so it's not like I have money flowing in left and right or anything.
Stay where you're comfortable. If you're not comfortable you'll make mistakes and probably end up confirming your fear/hesitation of moving up.
That said, if you plan on moving up ever you'll eventually need to get comfortable at new stakes...maybe tell yourself when you've won X dollars this week you'll take those winnings and use them to buy in to a few higher stakes tournaments or bankroll you for a session or two of ring games? Worst case you lose the money you had set aside but gain experience and (hopefully) comfort, and best case you win even more $!
I like that idea. Take a certain amount of my winnings to give it a shot. I will definitely give that a try when I get up to the bankroll to make the move.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taicho
Yeah I definitely agree with Taicho. If you aren't comfortable, you'll change your way of playing to "save money" or to not risk losing money.
Are you using good bankroll management? If you're playing $25NL, you should have a minimum BR of $500. You should only move up to $50NL when you have a minimum BR of $1000. If you are feeling uncomfortable, you can go even more conservative.
This is a quote from Chris Ferguson on the Full Tilt site:
1. Never buy into a cash game or SnG with more than 5% of your bankroll.
2. Never buy into a MTT with more than 2% of your bankroll.
3. If at any time in a no-limit or pot-limit game the money on the table represents more than 10% of your bankroll, leave the game when the blinds come to you.
Hope this helps. And if you already knew all this and you were still feeling uncomfortable, then I apologize greatly :D
Yeah, my bankroll is at about $540 right now.
Also, Chris Ferguson's rules about NL cash games, are the same as the bankroll mgt that you just stated. 5% of 1000 is $50, which would be the buyin of the limit I'd be playing with $1k.
Just remember that the game of poker is played the exact same way from $0.01/$0.02 blinds to $50/$100 blinds. When we think about higher levels, we sometimes forget that. And if the guys @ $50NL were such hot stuff, wouldn't they be @ $100NL? :)
One thing that might give you a bit more comfort would be a deeper roll. The 20 buyin rule tends to get grinders to tilt when they lose a couple buyins. A lot of people increase their BR requirements by level. You might consider using your winrate as a requirement. Here's the plan I set for myself about a year ago:
I think spoon's increments by 5s instead of 10s, but his req. for 25nl is 25 buyins, so 50 would be the same.Code:limit winrate BIs $
25nl - 5ptbb/100 - 20 - $500
50nl - 4ptbb/100 - 30 - $1500
100nl - 3ptbb/100 - 40 - $4g
200nl - 2.5ptbb/100 - 50 - $10g
400nl - 2ptbb/100 - 60 - $24g
600nl - 2ptbb/100 - 70 - $42g
1000nl - 2ptbb/100 - 80 - $80g
Anyway, if you write up a specific plan then you move up when it tells you to. You're just following directions. It takes the pressure off and allows you to just play poker.
Alright guys, thanks for the advice. I'm not ready to move up just yet, I'm just running really hot at $25NL and was thinking about what will happen when I plan to move to $50NL.
Try buying in for 200BB and playing deep in NL25 as long as you make some adjustments like not stacking off too light 200BB deep
you'll be comfortable playing for $50
I remember the first time I did cash games. I lost 1/10th buy in straight away and that scared me away for quite some time. I was also scared because I played way outside my BR. I don't care how good of a player you are if you're playing outside your BR you're going to lose.
I also look at it this way. Say the requirements are higher to move up like some suggested. You're still moving higher up which means you'll be making more money per hour and also 100NL is 50NL, just with more money.
The skill doesn't change because there are 1000s of people playing outside their bankroll and buying in for 20xBB rather than 100.
My friend deposited $100 and he's playing 25NL not ever having played more than 10 home games with me before. Those are the people you're going to make your money from so don't be afraid to move up, but only do it when your BR permits it. You'll wipe the floor with 'em I'm sure.
Wat?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
He means that the people change, not the cards. A set is still a set in $50/$100 game and is worth something. A lot of people think that everybody plays super different and that the actual game changes when in reality an AKs is still a good hand. The people are more perceptive the higher you go up but not by much, once you reach the $3/$6 level I think the fish begin to thin out though.
you get two cards, then there's a round of bettingQuote:
Originally Posted by TonyB73
then there's a flop and a round of betting
then there's a turn and a round of betting
then there's a river and a round of betting
Quote:
Originally Posted by CBAT
You are barely rolled for 25NL.Quote:
Originally Posted by CBAT
I would suggest at very least 25 buy-ins for 25NL, but there's no shame in waiting until you have 40... so plenty time to get comfortable. If you have proven to be a constant winner at your current stake, you have 40 or more buy-ins for the next level, then you are limiting your profits and your chance to improve, but until then no need to worry.
I DO NOT suggest you buy-in deep at the current level.
we probably ALL still deal with it on some level or another. there is an amount of money that will make every one of us nervous when its placed on the table. even the HSP guys on tv have issues when there's several hundred thousand dollars on the table and they got themselves in trouble with J8s and middle pair.Quote:
Originally Posted by CBAT
look at my post count. i am the proverbial microstakes player here. i have "decent" knowledge, but wont move too high because i dont like having much money out there exposed. i have an incredibly deep bankroll, and still wont move up very high. i have played NL (never higher than 100NL) and LHE (never over 2/4) and tourneys ($10 BIs) and a little of the other games like HORSE, O8, etc.
i like to poke around and swim with the fish. i am not here for a career. i stack up some money and move it offline to do something fun with.
but, most importantly, i am NOT COMFORTABLE PLAYING HIGHER THAN I PLAY.
and, you shouldnt feel pressure to do so. if you can take it, move up. if you cant, dont. if you take a shot and cant handle it, thats fine, too....at least you tried the next level. dont let anyone tell you differently.
basically: if you are properly bankrolled, arent afraid to move back down, and are comfortable with the new amounts of money, by all means. GO FOR IT!
if not, there's no shame in it. good luck with whichever you choose.
I know that I am barely rolled for $25NL, but I'm just looking to the future, and seeing how everyone felt about coming across this situation (if they did come across it).Quote:
Originally Posted by oskar
Thank you, this is what I was looking for, somone with a similar experience. What I finally did with $25NL is just took a shot, even though I was not yet comfortable. I set a buy-in stop loss at 3, so incase I lost 3 buy-ins I would have moved down. But so far I have been successful, and do not see myself moving down. I'm definitely not ready to move up mentally or bankroll wise, but I will take your advice when it gets to that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Thanks everyone,
CBAT
Keep playing your 25NL game and cross the bridge when you get to it. Who knows? Maybe by the time you have the bankroll for 50NL, you'll be ready for it. Maybe by that time, going up to 30-40 buy-ins will increase your comfort level and you can play your game.
You said you weren't too comfortable at 25NL (even though you're crushing it). Nobody said you HAVE to move up to 50NL at a certain number of buy-ins. When you get up to 30-40 buy-ins...open up three tables of 25NL and one of 50NL. Then slowly increase the number of 50NL tables you have open (this is if you multi-table, of course). Good luck in your poker conquest!
also remember that when you DO move up, it will never be comfortable at first. i would not look at anything, results-wise, for about 5k-10k hands (minimum) and see how you "feel" about the adjustments you are making mentally.
then, just glance at any stats you watch, and double your total hands played (if you are going to stick it out) and see how they change when compared to your first sample.
what casino spreads 100NL?
Most indian casinos with poker rooms only go down to 1/2nl, vegas casinos usually start at 1/3nl. They all play bigger than the comparable games online.
It seems everyone is talking about moving up all the time. I dont think there is anything that sais you have to follow that path.
Don't think about buyins and blinds in terms of actual money won or lost. Think of it as big blinds or big bets. Saying, "I'm down 40bb today" sounds a lot better than "I lost $400". What I'm implying is it's completely psychological. But if you're not comfortable, then you should either move down a level or two and focus on making good decisions and not worry about the money. Or you could play limit variations, which is pretty much all I play anymore in terms of cash games.
Yeah, at Turning Stone in middle New York is where I played $100NL. They also have $1/$3 limit, but that game is an absolute joke (as well as $100NL). It is VERY easy to make money at the $100NL tables at Turning Stone. It is the lowest stakes, so think of it as playing $2NL on pokerstars...bet when you have it, fold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parasurama
Also I took a cooler last night at $25NL. Dropped 3 buy-ins. I'm going to stick it out for a few more days and see how it goes.
Are you a reg at Turning Stone? I kept meaning to visit with friends that work at Foxwoods, but when Mohegan opened up their room they stopped making trips.
Is turning stone the 18+ one?
No, I'm definitely not a reg, I've been like a dozen times over the past 4 years. So like three or four times a year is all. It is actually the only casino I've ever gambled at because I am only 20. Yes it is 18+.Quote:
Originally Posted by dev
I went once when I was 16, and a couple times when I was 17 because they rarely ID unless you win a certain amount of money. My buddy actually won a quarter of the Caribbean Poker jackpot for $13,000 at the age of 17, he gave them his social security number because he had no ID with him (because he was under 18) and he never got his money. Poor guy, haha.
Jeez...that sucks. He had to feel awful. Where in NY you from CBAT?Quote:
Originally Posted by CBAT
Oh man, the Mohegan Sun poker room kills that of Foxwoods. I went there for the first time about a month ago and fell in love. I've been dying to go back but work keeps getting in the way and I can't find a wingman. [HalfBakedReference]Who's comin' WITH ME!?!?![/HalfBakedReference]Quote:
Originally Posted by dev
I'm at one or the other a couple of times a week. Mohegan's room is prettier, but the staff isn't anywhere near as good. There are still some pretty awful dealers at Mo's. When they opened the room it was torture because very few of the dealers had ever even played poker before they went to the school. Now most of them are ok, but some are still pretty bad and a lot of the floors are kind of clueless.
The vig on their tourneys is better tho, so if I get back into playing tournaments I might go mo's instead of woods.
Hey CBAT,
I moved up to 25nl recently with $630 and lost 3 BIs in my first 1000 hands. Only way I felt comfortable was by telling myself that I can afford to lose another 10 BIs before moving back down. I must be running good now, but either way, I probably only just feel comfortable with like $800 and a $100 bonus pending.
I feel like if i ran at 10BB/100 for the next 15000 hands and was rolled for 50nl i just wouldn't move up, mainly because when I did move up i'd want to stay there. That said, Dev's targets look good to me because for 50nl, $1500 means you can lose 10 BIs and still come back to a 25nl comfort zone.
I don't think we have that luxury though when moving up to 25nl because having a roll of like $500 and losing 10 BIs leaves you in a not-so-comfortable zone for 10nl, but it's just so much more exciting that i think it's worth the risk.
To answer your question: I was and am scared of moving up. I'm dealing with 25nl by, like i say, thinking it's worth the risk. I'll deal with 50nl by not going there any time soon! Bit of a cop out, but if I can beat 25nl for about 5BB/100 in 30k hands time, then there's no reason not to stay there and study more and earn an extra 500 bucks for the next stake.
To relay a recent conversation I had: "What's the rush!? Poker's going to be here for at least a while so spend this time really learning the game at a stake where it's affordable."
I actually tried that today with $10NL and $25NL I have trouble adjusting to which is which, even though it shouldn't matter. I see people with $30 at the $25NL and forget when I'm betting. I'm not 100% sure what I'm going to do yet, but what I do know is that I'm going to keep playing these double up SnG's on Pokerstars because I am 5-0 so far!Quote:
Originally Posted by loonychune
I go to school in Oswego (north of Syracuse) and then when I'm not here I live in the Albany area, so I'm always about 1.5 hours from Turning Stone!Quote:
Originally Posted by BooG690
Woah Oswego is right across the lake from my hometown Kingston.
I live in Toronto now though. Pretty close for being in two different countries, small world..
I've been playing at 25NL for some time now, and I'm getting close to $1K. The thing is, I never experienced that discomfort phase because a tourney win bumped me from something like a $450 BR at 10NL to a $650+ BR at 25NL. It definitely helps the comfort level to be above 25 BIs for 25NL. I've gotten up to well over $900 only to fall back below $600 during a bad (and sometimes tilty) run. If I didn't have the buffer zone, I'd be back in 10NL. Instead, I keep grinding away at 25NL and playing MTTs until I hit that $1500 mark where I'll be comfortable playing 50NL.
So my advice is to definitely have a BR that puts you well above the 20 BI recommendation. If you can mix in a few tourneys here and there, you can find yourself in a situation where you take your bankroll up to an amount that leaves you very comfortable at the next level. When you're getting close to $1K, you can spend $11 on the 180-man on Stars, where 1st prize is $540 (just making the FT is good for $30, and you get over $100 for 5th or better). $11 seems like nothing since it's not even half a buy-in, but it can net you an amount that launches you to the next level.
You generally want to have 50-100 buy-ins for any MTT, but if you instead take one buy-in every couple weeks and take a shot at a $3 rebuy or a $22 45-man, you can make a nice score while not risking your BR.
They call it a comfort level for a reason. Poker should be challenging not stressful after all. If you're panicking because you lose 3 buyins you are not playing at the right level. Nothing wrong with taking a stab at the next level, but if you lose this attempt drop back down again until you have enough to take another stab, maybe the second time get a few more buyins up to try again.
I don't really agree with funding moving up in cash using tournaments. I mean, it does, like you say, provide a nice buffer (in the same way my $100 bonus and FPP bonuses will) but like, unless you had to cash out or lost a shitload of money playing 8-game ;) and want to move up as quickly as possible, I would think playing a higher stake without grinding your way there is gonna be fairly pointless. Suppose it boils down to how good you know (or think) you are and if you can beat the next stake with an adequate roll.Quote:
When you're getting close to $1K, you can spend $11 on the 180-man on Stars, where 1st prize is $540 (just making the FT is good for $30, and you get over $100 for 5th or better). $11 seems like nothing since it's not even half a buy-in, but it can net you an amount that launches you to the next level.
We can play 25K hands at 25NL at 4 ptBB/100 hands, and that will take us from $500 to $1000. By the time I've reached that point, I might feel like I can compete at 50NL, but I won't be comfortable with only 20 buy-ins. By the same token, I might feel like I'm moving along slowly if I try to play another 20K hands to get another $500.
Instead, if we keep 1 properly-bankrolled MTT (50-100 buy-ins, depending on tourney size) mixed in with our cash tables, we can occasionally see nice leaps in our bankroll while taking advantage of the huge edge we have over the average tournament player. If you think there are some bad fish in your cash games, they're at least twice as bad (and 3 times more abundant) in tournaments. Everyone who watches the WSOP has the idea that they are good enough to win a tournament when they actually have no idea at all about poker strategy.
I started out in SNGs and MTTs, as I think a lot of players did. Once I started playing some cash, I actually saw my MTT play improve, as I got more accustomed to playing deeper stacks. It's like playing micro stakes cash and having fold equity.
Now I agree with almost everyone else that cash games is "real poker" and is where we really develop and improve our game. But if we're not playing in any MTTs, I think we're missing out on a huge edge and a very profitable opportunity. And there's nothing like the satisfaction of FTing or winning a big tournament.
Yeah you've got a fair point since you think yourself good enough to compete at 50nl.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to get 'stuck' at 25nl, plodding along just tryna grab a few extra $ to give me some comfort at 50nl. It's just, say I woke up tomorrow bankrolled for 50nl: then i'd have spent no time trying things out at a stake where it's cheaper to do so.
This belies a weak mentality, since you should really, probably forcibly, get better in amongst better players at higher stakes. But I continue to recognise so many foreign concepts that aren't inapplicable at the lower stakes that I haven't yet tried or learned.
I think this probably highlights that so long as we aren't moving up as losing players with an inadequate roll, it all depends on the individual and where he thinks he's at in the game.
If I was to say "I'll give you $50 for certain, or we can flip a coin: Heads I give you $100, tails you get nothing" what would be your answer?
If the answer is "$50 for certain" you are not ready for $50NL.
If the answer is the flip, you should be playing higher than $50NL
If you're not bothered, $50NL is right for you.
Mathematical reasoning behind this is in my BR management post in the digest.
On one hand, if you're scared, dont do it. On the other, give it a shot sometime. I've only been scared once, the first time I tried 100nl. Next day I was over it. I wasnt even really thinking anything in particular. Not like I was literally thinking "oh wow, this is a steak dinner" or "crap, better fold this is real money", I just felt nervous. Next day nothing, couldnt care less. So dont play with scared money, but take shots occassionally. Heres what I'd do. Before loading 25nl tables, look for a couple of really good 50nl tables. If you find a couple play on them with 1/2 the number tables you would 25nl. If you dont, just go load up your normal 25nl tables. The incentive of having a really soft table and more time to think should help.
gingerwizards Bankroll Management posts are solid GOLD
To answer the question...
First kudos for admitting to yourself that you are scared to move up. If you simply suppressed the emotion it would become a certain source of tilt. Having admitted it you can address it and make a plan for how to prevent it from affecting your play.
As has been posted a couple of times there is nothing wrong with never moving up. It's possible to grind out thousands and never moving up from 2nl and still have fun at poker. You should only move up if you have a reason for doing it that you are fully behind.
However, when you do decide to move up - or take a shot since that is what we're talking about here (you're not really rolled for 'moving up') there are a couple of things I would personally do and recommend.
The most important thing I think you need to do is study. Don't get me wrong - you will probably study the play at the higher limit and find that it plays pretty much exactly the same as at the limit you are moving up from. But understand that there is a huge difference between accepting this on an intellectual level and having studied and learned it on an emotional level. I think this is a very big part of what people call becoming comfortable at a given level.
Continuing on, I think there is a very obvious best way to study. Move up, cut down to exactly one table, play 1-1.5 hour sessions and during each session maximise the reads and notes you get on people, play a little more nitty than usual perhaps and just hone your instincts. Only play at the higher limit when you think you are playing really well - go back to multitabling the lower limit if you must when you want to play and you are not feeling optimal. And table select aggressively. Assess your table every orbit when the blinds come around and determine if this is the table where you want to be paying your tuition fee.
Once you've had 7-10 sessions like that at your new limit you should begin to feel more confident in your ability to read the players at the limit and be confident in your overall strategy still being profitable without major changes. You may pick up one or two tendencies that you need to adjust to, which only applies selectively to particular types of villains but you should by this time have eased yourself into it and be able to start adding a table or two without too much risk.
I haven't posted because I share the same problem and don't like to admit it. After some thought, I've realized that it's completely psychological and that the more we fret the more this nightmare becomes a reality.
I'll stop fretting if you stop fretting.
^_^ no guarantees just yet! But I'll do my best!
I don't know if this is a good practice or not, but once I feel comfortable at the level I'm at, and have a decently sized bankroll for that limit, I like to spend a day of the week to take a shot at the next limit. Of course, you should try to find a softer table at that limit, seems to make it a little easier for the transition. And even if you lose one or two buy-ins and have to move down, it feels like everything's so much easier at your regular limit all of a sudden, and you earnings go up so much faster.
Edit: Please take this with a grain of salt, I'm only NL10 with a bankroll of 460, so far taking shots at NL25 doesn't seem too bad. Seem to learn a thing or two every time I try to take a shot.