A few 50nl hands

Hand 1

Not many hands on villain but this was his first 3-bet. I want to fold PF, but its a minraise? Then I dont like calling flop either. Turn, I could bluff but not sure he'll actually fold (and perhaps he got there)... Dislike most things about this hand, so any advice on all streets appreciated:

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($45)
MP ($50.30)
Hero (CO) ($48.25)
Button ($53.55)
SB ($179.04)
BB ($50)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero bets $2.25, 1 fold, SB raises $3.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $1.75

Flop: ($9) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets $6.50, Hero calls $6.50

Turn: ($22) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets $3.25, Hero calls $3.25

River: ($28.50) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets $6, Hero folds

Total pot: $28.50



Hand 2

Villain is your standard CS who cant fold. I wonder if turn is b/f? River doesnt make much sense, but so much has improved past me that a hero call seems dumb here.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($50.85)
SB ($30.05)
BB ($39.99)
UTG ($56.03)
Hero (MP) ($58.66)
CO ($123.71)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
1 fold, Hero bets $1.75, 2 folds, SB calls $1.50, BB calls $1.25

Flop: ($5.25) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $4, SB calls $4, 1 fold

Turn: ($13.25) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($13.25) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets $16.75, Hero folds

Total pot: $13.25


Hand 3

Guy had 20% donk bet, but that was only 1 out of 5 (of course, this makes 2/6...). 22/3 over 90 hands, nothing remarkable postflop.


No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($76.80)
SB ($16.90)
BB ($42.55)
UTG ($34.70)
Hero (MP) ($58.85)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
1 fold, Hero bets $1.75, 2 folds, BB calls $1.25

Flop: ($3.75) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets $3.75, Hero calls $3.75

Turn: ($11.25) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets $4, Hero folds

Total pot: $11.25


Hand 4

This made me go wtf, but I didnt think I could call. Is flop 3b/fold an option?


No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($52.50)
CO ($29.84)
Button ($47.64)
SB ($49.50)
Hero (BB) ($62.75)
UTG ($122.71)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
2 folds, CO calls $0.50, 1 fold, SB calls $0.25, Hero checks

Flop: ($1.50) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.50, CO calls $1.50, SB raises $4.44, Hero calls $2.94, CO calls $2.94

Turn: ($14.82) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
SB bets $44.56 (All-In), Hero folds, 1 fold

Total pot: $14.82

your fold in 3 makes me cry.

Just because of his bet size, or you think I'm ahead a lot regardless?

1st Hand: Fold the flop
2nd Hand: You could throw out a feeler bet on the turn. Although your play work also.
3rd Hand: Raise the flop
4th Hand: 3bet flop

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CBAT

1st Hand: Fold the flop
2nd Hand: You could throw out a feeler bet on the turn. Although your play work also.
3rd Hand: Raise the flop
4th Hand: 3bet flop

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I think these answers need more detail.

Hand 2 - if he's a cs who won't fold, then bet the turn. You have toppest pair, if he raises you can fold. You can re-evaluate river, but likely check behind.

hand 1: besides folding pre (and who does that with anything reasonably decent in position vs a minraise?), its fine. folding the flop would be pretty bad w/ an OESD.

hand 2: bet. the. turn. seriously, hes a calling station, a FD is a small part of his range and you need to make his weak shit pay.

hand 3: atleast call the turn

hand 4: any reads on SB? if hes bad or super aggro i probly 3ball/get it in on the flop.

Yeah, more I look at it, the more I think the turn in hand 2 should be b/f.

No great reads in hand 4. Both players were kinda loose and kinda bad but nothing specific to go with it.

Hand 3 I just felt I was behind a lot. On the flop I think his range is sets, FDs and PPs 99+, with a bit of air thrown in. On turn all the FDs are now ahead of me, and possibly some of his air improved. His turn bet looks either weak or trappy, but even his weak range now includes sets that are worried about the flush.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bode

hand 1: besides folding pre (and who does that with anything reasonably decent in position vs a minraise?), its fine. folding the flop would be pretty bad w/ an OESD.

hand 2: bet. the. turn. seriously, hes a calling station, a FD is a small part of his range and you need to make his weak shit pay.

hand 3: atleast call the turn

hand 4: any reads on SB? if hes bad or super aggro i probly 3ball/get it in on the flop.

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^^^^This
On hand 3, you have to raise flop and get it in on such a drawy low flop. Villain might even go crazy with 99-JJ/A8.

OMg at hand 3.K is a blank. I raise flop there.

OMg at hand 3.K is a blank. I raise flop there.

Kh is a blank?

sorry i misread and double posted lol. raise flop, i still call turn tho given small bet

I don't know why everyone seems so excited to stack off/ship it in, in hand 4 with top and bottom in a limped pot, on a scary board, where JT is such a playable hand by all villains, and player behind us might even be slowplaying.

Maybe I'm a nit, but I fold pretty often to c/r and don't think too much of it.

1st hand 1st.

I play it the same way.

It's never a hand you're likely to win, but I think the way it played you had correct odds and chasing was ok.

I wouldn't have done this, but maybe check-raising the turn woulda been profitable (I suspect I don't raise the turn enough).

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2nd hand, I would bet the turn. I guess the Jack spades, is making you more inclined to check here? I think it should make you more inclined to bet.

As played you have to fold the overbet river.

hands 1 and 4 are good

hand 2 i think bet-fold the turn is a little better than checking back so much money is made at these levels by betting the turn for value when ppl can have tons of pair + draw type hands and are only raising you when you re crushed

hand 3 raise the turn for value or call for value but don t fold ever ever for 4$ there

oh ya and don t raise the flop in hand 3

and lastly his hand on the turn is almost always a blocker w a mid pp or pair + FD

Hand 3.

Errm, yes I agree with just about everyone else. Raising the flop is standard and I'm baffled why you played it so scared (had some bad-beats / cold-decks, with Queens recently?)

If it had been 3 or 4-bet preflop, then fine; maybe you need to handle those ladies with care, but here...?

If you don't raise the flop, you have to raise the turn.

As it was played you're gonna lose to any cards villain may have; but clearly, you were ahead of most of his range.

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Hand 4.

I think you got away cheap.

I likely reraise the flop (but have to fold if he came over the top again). I think villain would call and think he either hit turn, or had you beat anyhow. I'd lose more money than you here.

Anyone plan to actually give a range of hands on hand 3, or just blithely say raise?

Hero's only played 5 hands against villain.

There is no discernable range as such, therefore I'm happy to blindly, or blithely say raise.

If I'd played 1000 hands and villain was a total rock, then maybe reconsider, but against an unknown?

QQ?

It's ahead of an unknown range, whatever that may be.

Tell me why you played the hand the way you did and I'll tell you why I do / or do not agree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

Hand 3 I just felt I was behind a lot. On the flop I think his range is sets, FDs and PPs 99+, with a bit of air thrown in. On turn all the FDs are now ahead of me, and possibly some of his air improved. His turn bet looks either weak or trappy, but even his weak range now includes sets that are worried about the flush.

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So flop could very well be a raise, but I definately dont want to stack off, so getting b/3b would suck. I call planning to get more money in on a blank turn. Turn wasnt blank so I folded.

I don't think you need to worry about being 3-bet on the flop. It's rare and in this spot your hands good enough anyhow.

Villains hand is entirely random, he's gonna bet anything (after all that's why you were prepared to call, hoping for the blank). You should raise here, because his bet doesn't mean that he has hit.

I call because his range becomes a lot weaker on a blank turn than it is on the flop. The equity of a lot of his range would have halved.

That may be true, but for hand 3 I still put an unknown range as unknown (as in it could be anything from 23 -> AA).

I think your QQ is more likely to be ahead than behind.

Put in a small raise, if he comes over the top, well hey, guess he was ahead. I'm fairly sure it is incorrect to just give-up.

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I think the last few posts have been at crossed purposes. I was now talking about why you had to raise the turn; I suspect you're defending calling on the flop.

Hand 3 - Never fold turn for that small a bet. Flop I could go either way but I think vs him I prefer raising since he might flat 99-JJ hands preflop.

Hand 4- While I agree with Geni, I still think him 3x potting it and you having a player acting behind makes this an easy fold.

Thanks guys. I guess I've just used his line a bit recently with sets so saw monsters under the bed on hand 3.

alex i was talking about the hand where bj had QQ when I said villain always has a pair and a draw, folding that hand with J8 is good.

about the QQ hand : why do we wanna raise the flop? raising the flop allows villain to play his hand perfectly - fold his air and shove his big combos as well as sets. the ONLY scenario where I can see raising the flop being decent is if villain views us as spewy and is looking to induce a bluffraise from us when he has a 99ish hand and will call the flop raise and then reevaluate the turn oop. but that s a pretty specific scenario.

Even when we raise the flop and villain flat calls (since I've seen weakish ppl take this line) it'll be tough for us to know which cards are blanks and which ones aren't. all mid cards can fuck us as well as any heart or any board-pairing card.

by calling we force him to get passive oop when he misses his draw on the turn and we can then value-town him on possibly 2 streets with his made hands and get turn value with him drawing much thinner if he blanks.

we also allow ourselves to play perfectly by calling, like in the situation that took place where villain tips off the strength of his hand as something like 99 with a heart that we get to call down and value bet the riv if checked to or call a small or midsized bet.

admittedly if villain was a whale or something, just raise and get the money in, but villain's stats mean he can have a ton of weaker overpairs as well as sets and combo draws so I like just calling and losing the min vs his monsters and letting us decide wtf is going on by the turn/riv.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

about the QQ hand : why do we wanna raise the flop? raising the flop allows villain to play his hand perfectly - fold his air and shove his big combos as well as sets. the ONLY scenario where I can see raising the flop being decent is if villain views us as spewy and is looking to induce a bluffraise from us when he has a 99ish hand and will call the flop raise and then reevaluate the turn oop. but that s a pretty specific scenario.

Even when we raise the flop and villain flat calls (since I've seen weakish ppl take this line) it'll be tough for us to know which cards are blanks and which ones aren't. all mid cards can fuck us as well as any heart or any board-pairing card.

by calling we force him to get passive oop when he misses his draw on the turn and we can then value-town him on possibly 2 streets with his made hands and get turn value with him drawing much thinner if he blanks.

we also allow ourselves to play perfectly by calling, like in the situation that took place where villain tips off the strength of his hand as something like 99 with a heart that we get to call down and value bet the riv if checked to or call a small or midsized bet.

admittedly if villain was a whale or something, just raise and get the money in, but villain's stats mean he can have a ton of weaker overpairs as well as sets and combo draws so I like just calling and losing the min vs his monsters and letting us decide wtf is going on by the turn/riv.

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When this villain donk bets pot on flop OOP I put him on mostly a draw and maybe an overpair. I don't see him doing this very often with nuts/sets.
Therefore, by not raising we will giving draws a free card.
Which means of course that we would not be allowing villain to bluff turn, but I think we have more value to gain by making draws pay on this board then just calling and expecting villain to bluff turn.
If board was 3 tone, then OK I would call.

why do you put him on a draw and maybe an overpair?

I might agree that an over pair vs this villain he might c/c most often here.
I believe that he would not donk bet pot flop with the nuts here very often. With the nuts I would see villain bet a bit smaller.

Hand 3: I dno it seems pretty clear to me that this kind of 22/3 villain is potting flop with 8x,77-JJ type hands to take it down. It's a small sample size but the fact that his PFR is so small makes me include 99-JJ hands which will stack off pretty much always.

Sure he could have a set but again it's super unlikely. All this and the fact that he's like 85bb deep make me wanna raise flop.

Totally different situation then if villain is v.good with a balanced leading range and 115bb deep.

edit: I always assume 22/3 players are donks and not v.good regs.

Alex,

What about if villain is a good reg (say something like 22/19) what do you put him on here when he donk bets pot?

Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jimmy44

Alex,

What about if villain is a good reg (say something like 22/19) what do you put him on here when he donk bets pot?

Thanks!

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i m not alex but here goes :

22 33 44 55 66 77 88 99 45 46 56 57 67 68 89 A4 A5 A6 A7 A8 + any two hearts and random overcards sometimes in order to 2 barrel a card like Kx that hits them or conversely check call our perceived float that decides to bluff

im alex and i agree

a range like this makes it more of a call

Thanks guys!
I stoved this and vs that range our equity is 60-40, but if we raise villain would fold 22-33, 66-77 and A4-A7 so the equity becomes near 50-50.

You guys rock.