River Decisions - New Hand Posted

No reads, just using position. I really think I should have checked behind here on the river. But would you call the C/R? Villain probably wouldn't call down with Kx. I'm assuming he's a station and chased with QJ or a maybe even KT. I doubt he had an Ace.

Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+2 ($50.20)
MP1 ($23.71)
MP2 ($16.50)
MP3 ($15)
CO ($19)
Hero (Button) ($23.50)
SB ($14)
BB ($42.05)
UTG ($2.36)
UTG+1 ($10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
3 folds, MP1 calls $0.50, 1 fold, MP3 (poster) checks, CO calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, SB calls $0.25, BB checks

Flop: ($3) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero bets $0.50, 2 folds, MP1 calls $0.50, 1 fold, CO calls $0.50

Turn: ($4.50) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, CO checks, Hero bets $1, MP1 calls $1, 1 fold

River: ($6.50) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $1, MP1 raises to $2, Hero folds

Total pot: $8.50 | Rake: $0.25

without a read, fold

u should've taken the free showdown, cause gutshots got there or made a better pair

Quote:

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Originally Posted by asdpikas

without a read, fold

u should've taken the free showdown, cause gutshots got there or made a better pair

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Just needed a confirmation. :wall:

And what's up with converting Cake HH? Says it's NLH and .50 big bet LOL

I'm new to limit. I like the aggressiveness on all streets especially raising your pair and backdoor draws. What I'm uncertain of is that yes you might be beat, but you are getting 8-1 on your call on the river. Is the pot not big enough to call? Also, why are you betting on the river? For value? If he would have bet the river would you have called?

The thing about LHE, and especially at low stakes, is that people will generally tell you when you're beat. I know I should have checked the river. But what can I beat that can justify a call?

river c/r's are rarely bluffs, imo. and, i beg to differ that its not the A. i am not saying it is the A, but i am saying "dont be surprised" at how often it is. i see them slowplay some really stupid shit. i cant begin to tell you how many players i have noted as "river raiser" and "river folder." the first is a chronic slowplayer and the latter is a chronic draw chaser.

i check behind this river. not because i am fearing a c/r, but because i just know i cant handle one if it happens. i dont know what i beat that calls my bet. i am constantly asking myself "will worse call?" in these spots. if i cant see something that will call with worse, i take the free showdown. and, when i'm beat, it was usually by something that was probably trying to c/r my ass.

I am rereading SSH and maybe I'm taking the advise too far. However, when you have at least a pair on the river in a big pot, regardless of whether you think you are beat, you should call.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sprayed

I am rereading SSH and maybe I'm taking the advise too far. However, when you have at least a pair on the river in a big pot, regardless of whether you think you are beat, you should call.

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LOL, thank you for being so nice to me! I love your mooooneys

J/K

no, you should consider pot odds vs chance of being good

reading hands helps tons. Chop already said it, but i'll repeat it. A river c/r is hardly ever a bluff, and 8-1 isn't so enormous to call with bottom pair here, imo.

The question OP is asking is whether he should call the check raise. I've turned to pg. 331 in SSH and the question is asked "If you are almost sure that you are beaten, should you fold for one more bet?" Answer: "No. You must be absolutely sure that you are beaten."

OP has no reads on the player and therefore you don't know if he's just a silly c/r river donk. Meh, I think a call is fine considering pot odds and the chance that we're good. Obv. check the river in this spot next time.

What is he check/calling with on the flop and turn? I guarantee it's not complete air so we can rule that out. He could hold any pocket pair, QJ, Kx, Tx, KT, AT, A4 or Ax. I also wouldn't rule out something stupid like T4s. Without doing the exact math, we can't beat anything except for a lower pocket pair, Ten with a worse kicker or a complete bluff. Sure, we're getting 8 to 1 but there's no point to spewing off another BB when we're so often beat IMO.

SSH is an amazing book for low/micro stakes, i love it, and still look at it from time to time. This does not mean you should take everything it says literally 100% of the time.

It is not an advanced/complex book for advanced/complex poker minds (there are others) and some simplifications are made, as well as some assumptions.

You will beat the micros by following it word by word, but you can always improve on it. Sticking to calling cause it says so is not good, imo.

Here's a hand where I call a river donk bet (after villain check/calls the flop and turn) since worse hands show up here often enough. I like checking behind on the turn and not committing any more to the pot than I have to with the Ace out there.

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (10 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
Hero raises, 6 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls

Flop: (6.4 SB) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, 1 fold, BB calls

Turn: (4.2 BB) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: (4.2 BB) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls

Total pot: $3.10 (6.2 BB) | Rake: $0.15

no reads? played fine!

with reads:
-if BB passive/str8forward, bet turn and take free sd
-if BB aggro/bluffy, check turn and call river

Meh, villain is 34/12/1.7 over 32 hands. Hadn't seen much in terms if post-flop reads.

Especially on cake lately, the new trend seems to be waiting until the river to raise your monsters. Often with a check-raise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sprayed

The question OP is asking is whether he should call the check raise. I've turned to pg. 331 in SSH and the question is asked "If you are almost sure that you are beaten, should you fold for one more bet?" Answer: "No. You must be absolutely sure that you are beaten."

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there are also many references in the book regarding "experience will allow you deviate from these words. but, until then, play this way."

i know exactly what you are saying, sprayed, but experience tells us.....over thousands and thousands of hands.....that river c/r's mean business. i see the odds to "call one more," and it took me a LOOOOONG time to understand this one, but......this isnt "one more." this is a c/r, essentially two more. had villain led into you, via donkbet, i would think calling is a ton better. but, the c/r isnt air. and, thats about all third pair beats in this spot.

as for the "waiting for the river to raise your monster" move, it happens a lot at smaller stakes. look at the original HH again. its feasible to play an A this way (not necessarily optimum, but feasible if you put your mind inside a fishy's head.) there are no flushes or straights to chase, or semibluff. so, dragging the A to the river if hero keeps betting is understandable.