Preflop spot with 88

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02-22-2009, 08:48 PM
Palantine

Preflop spot with 88

Button is an aggressive player who opens wide from late position (SCs, Axs, etc). SB is a terrible calling station who has been running hot.

My first instinct was to 3bet to 1.50 or so, but the presence of the station led me to think calling was the best. What do you guys think?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) ($11.45)
UTG ($11.05)
MP ($20.10)
CO ($10.85)
Button ($12.65)
SB ($24.35)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
3 folds, Button bets $0.40, SB calls $0.35, Hero calls $0.30
02-22-2009, 09:06 PM
will641

i prefer a call.
02-22-2009, 09:20 PM
kb coolman

I like a call here from the BB.
03-03-2009, 04:35 AM
al yell

squeeze/cbet flop
03-03-2009, 04:50 AM
AFchung

call seems like the more optimal choice here. unless you have a good read on the button (high att to steal and high fold to 3bet)
03-03-2009, 05:02 AM
Fnord

Probably call, but I don't hate making it $2.

88 has so much value flatting and plays very poorly in 3-bet pots.
03-03-2009, 05:07 AM
al yell

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFchung

call seems like the more optimal choice here. unless you have a good read on the button (high att to steal and high fold to 3bet)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palatine

Button is an aggressive player who opens wide from late position

+ if BTN is calling 3bets light he'll give up on a lot of flops to even a 1/2 PSB
03-03-2009, 05:16 AM
al yell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

88....plays very poorly in 3-bet pots.

even when we have initiative? I expect Villain to play pretty straightforward in a reraised pot.

Flatting here strikes me as a bit of a leak as we're going to have to give up to a lot of cbets. In addition a squeeze here builds our image, blah blah..
03-03-2009, 01:25 PM
xpaand

Question: What are all the cons (and the thought process) to a 3-bet? I personally would call, but I just want to know :)
03-03-2009, 01:45 PM
Fnord

88 won't improve very often compared to a hand like 56s which will flop you a piece of equity you can push with more often.
03-04-2009, 01:44 PM
al yell

BB ($74.36)
UTG ($102.74)
Hero (SB) ($109.55)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
UTG bets $2, Hero raises to $7.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $5.50

Flop: ($16) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $12, UTG raises to $33, Hero raises to $102.05 (All-In), UTG calls $62.24 (All-In)

Turn: ($206.48) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($206.48) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $206.48 | Rake: $2

Results:
Hero had 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (three of a kind, eights).
UTG had 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Hero won $204.48

:wink:
03-04-2009, 02:23 PM
Taicho

Quote:

Originally Posted by al yell

Outcome: Hero won $204.48

Did you get his name? I kind of want to follow that guy around...:P
03-04-2009, 11:08 PM
bigspenda73

that spot is soooo different than OP's all yell
03-04-2009, 11:24 PM
Outlaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by al yell

BB ($74.36)
UTG ($102.74)
Hero (SB) ($109.55)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
UTG bets $2, Hero raises to $7.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $5.50

Flop: ($16) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $12, UTG raises to $33, Hero raises to $102.05 (All-In), UTG calls $62.24 (All-In)

Turn: ($206.48) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($206.48) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $206.48 | Rake: $2

Results:
Hero had 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (three of a kind, eights).
UTG had 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Hero won $204.48

:wink:

What's the point of posting this hand? It has no relevance to this discussion.
03-04-2009, 11:29 PM
al yell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taicho

Quote:

Originally Posted by al yell

Outcome: Hero won $204.48

Did you get his name? I kind of want to follow that guy around...:P

random donk. likely busted his roll on that hand.
03-04-2009, 11:38 PM
al yell

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

that spot is soooo different than OP's all yell

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

What's the point of posting this hand? It has no relevance to this discussion.

the situation may be a bit different (it's not a squeeze play), but it's still a 'Preflop spot with 88' out of the blinds which is the name of this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palatine

My first instinct was to 3bet

... and i think you should. (and not based on the hand I posted obv).
03-04-2009, 11:42 PM
lockpull

Quote:

Originally Posted by al yell

BB ($74.36)
UTG ($102.74)
Hero (SB) ($109.55)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
UTG bets $2, Hero raises to $7.50, 1 fold, UTG calls $5.50

Flop: ($16) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $12, UTG raises to $33, Hero raises to $102.05 (All-In), UTG calls $62.24 (All-In)

Turn: ($206.48) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($206.48) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $206.48 | Rake: $2

Results:
Hero had 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (three of a kind, eights).
UTG had 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Hero won $204.48

:wink:

IMO this hand is not relevant because with your hand
1. 3 handed where the OP's was 6 handed
2. OP had another caller in front of him where raising for him opened the betting up to two more people and then putting him squeezed in between a calling station and a loose aggressive player which is only a good thing when you hit that set 10% of the time
3. SB calling station has him covered twice

Just thought I would offer my opinion on why people are saying it is not relevant.

As for OP, I like the flat for set value against an aggresive player behind and a calling station in front.
03-04-2009, 11:56 PM
al yell

tbh my obscure sense of humor is what led me to post the hand coupled with the fact that it occurred shortly after this thread was started. I didn't think it would cause a fuss but i'm glad it opened way to the tangent that it did.

secondly i want to make it clear that i see all arguments against a raise as valid and perfectly logical and if going against the grain has led to a discussion where anyone reading this (not excluding myself) has learned something then i have no regrets. What else is a forum for right?
03-04-2009, 11:58 PM
lockpull

Quote:

Originally Posted by al yell

tbh my obscure sense of humor is what led me to post the hand coupled with the fact that it occurred shortly after this thread was started. I didn't think it would cause a fuss but i'm glad it opened way to the tangent that it did.

secondly i want to make it clear that i see all arguments against a raise as valid and perfectly logical and if going against the grain has led to a discussion where anyone reading this (not excluding myself) has learned something then i have no regrets. What else is a forum for right?

On a lighter note....... nice freaking hand.
03-05-2009, 12:02 AM
al yell

cheers
03-05-2009, 02:21 AM
DoanDiggy

I like calling. We can try to hit the set, and if we don't we can check behind the station to see what he does after the button bets. If the button c-bets and the station folds, we can often raise and take down the pot with the best hand (board-dependent, of course). If we 3-bet, we're going to be pissed when they both call and one of them beats us with a hand that we were dominating simply because we didn't have the type of hand that we could bet strong with postflop.

That said, if Button ever folds to 3-bets (65%+), a squeeze here is highly profitable. We probably have at least 60% equity against SB's call and we will be playing a 3-bet pot in position against him with Button's dead money in there. Even a station will check/fold an overcard on the flop in a 3-bet pot. So it really depends on how often Button calls 3-bets. We definitely don't want to be 3-way in a 3-bet pot with 88.