It's $5NL, who honestly 4-bet shoves pre without AA

I know alot of people say never fold KK preflop. But honestly...what other hand would EVER 4-bet shove preflop at $5NL. I have yet to see a 100bb stack do it with worse than KK. Does anyone ever fold KK to a 4-bet shove at microstakes, or am I just leveling myself.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($6.69)
MP3 ($2.89)
Hero (CO) ($6.93)
Button ($8.96)
SB ($2.05)
BB ($10.78)
UTG ($4)
UTG+1 ($5.06)
MP1 ($6.17)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.30, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.95, 3 folds, UTG+1 raises to $5.06 (All-In), Hero calls $4.11

Flop: ($10.19) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($10.19) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($10.19) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $10.19 | Rake: $0.50

Results in white below:
UTG+1 had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (one pair, Aces).
Hero mucked Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (one pair, Kings).
Outcome: UTG+1 won $9.69

Did you have any reads?

Because a lot of players do this at $25NL (and every stake I imagine) with A2+ and 22+, depending on the read. If you had a good read then maybe you could consider folding.

Then you would reconsider and call.

Over 50 hands villain was yet to showdown anything. He was a bit agg postflop but he only had a PFR of 6%. He was 30 something V$IP though, but he was mostly limping in on the HJ-Button. He seemed to be at least a bit positonally aware despite his shit pf stats.

Oh yeah and the open raise for 6x from ep pretty much turns his hand face up. I just felt like I couldn't fold KK preflop because that's just too nitty? I think it was a mistake to call here, regardless of hindsight.

No reads I'm never folding KK here. You only need 40% equity and people will do this with AK. KK vs AA/AK has 47% equity.

Actually, I'm never folding because you'll never have enough hands on someone at 5NL to narrow his range down to AA only. If he's 6/4 or something over a large sample then you need to re-evaluate your 3bet.

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Oh yeah and the open raise for 6x from ep pretty much turns his hand face up. I just felt like I couldn't fold KK preflop because that's just too nitty? I think it was a mistake to call here, regardless of hindsight.

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You just got coolered.

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

No reads I'm never folding KK here. You only need 40% equity and people will do this with AK. KK vs AA/AK has 47% equity.

Actually, I'm never folding because you'll never have enough hands on someone at 5NL to narrow his range down to AA only. If he's 6/4 or something over a large sample then you need to re-evaluate your 3bet.

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Would 2000 hands or so be enough? I have this guy in my DB who has raised 0.37% of his hands over a 1600ish sample...lol. I'll give his name away when I'm done with $5NL and hopefully it's no one here at FTR - at least I hope not, jesus. If he raises I'm callling KK for set value rather than trying to bloat the pot preflop with a 3-bet. It would be a mistake against this guy then to 3-bet with KK correct?

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Oh yeah and the open raise for 6x from ep pretty much turns his hand face up. I just felt like I couldn't fold KK preflop because that's just too nitty? I think it was a mistake to call here, regardless of hindsight.

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I have seen many players shove all in over a raise with everything from TT - AKs, especialy at microstakes. I remember a quote (I think it is on here somewhere) that says "I have never successfully folded KK to AA, but I have not folded it to QQ or AK either." I think AA vs. KK is a tough position to be in but will happen far less often than TT-QQ ,AK, and even AQ sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

No reads I'm never folding KK here. You only need 40% equity and people will do this with AK. KK vs AA/AK has 47% equity.

Actually, I'm never folding because you'll never have enough hands on someone at 5NL to narrow his range down to AA only. If he's 6/4 or something over a large sample then you need to re-evaluate your 3bet.

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Would 2000 hands or so be enough? I have this guy in my DB who has raised 0.37% of his hands over a 1600ish sample...lol. I'll give his name away when I'm done with $5NL and hopefully it's no one here at FTR - at least I hope not, jesus. If he raises I'm callling KK for set value rather than trying to bloat the pot preflop with a 3-bet.

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This is an extreme case. I've played a LOT of poker, and I've folded KK twice preflop and never online. To be honest, I have probably gone 30k hand stretches without folding QQ preflop. Most players that never raise, REALLY never raise. They're limping AA and KK to see what comes out on the board before they commit any money. If they can see why it makes sense to raise aces, then they see why it makes sense to raise kings as well.

Even a player who never raises might see something on tv or talk with a friend or something... If a guy who runs 20/0/.1/1000 raises, I think you'd do best to ignore the stats, because he's changed something in his game.

As long as you can even occassionally include AK or QQ in a range its +EV. If you really cant do that, then fold.

yeah its weird because I don't know where the 0.37 came from.
Oh wait, probably from misclicks.

conclusion: he limps aces too.

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Would 2000 hands or so be enough? I have this guy in my DB who has raised 0.37% of his hands over a 1600ish sample...lol. I'll give his name away when I'm done with $5NL and hopefully it's no one here at FTR - at least I hope not, jesus. If he raises I'm callling KK for set value rather than trying to bloat the pot preflop with a 3-bet. It would be a mistake against this guy then to 3-bet with KK correct?

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0.37% is awfully close to AA only.

If I'm ever calling KK after one raise it's never for set value (except MAYBE the situation above). Vs a 6/4 it's so he keeps every hand in his range, and a lot of them are happy on the same kind of flops we're happy with.

Yeah definately a cooler. I just ran up to $26 on a $5NL table as of now lol. Looks like the poker gods turned the heat up, although the super-donks at my table really did help.

I know there will be massive flamage to ensue but I have folded KK preflop correctly with confirmation several times. Live and on the net. I had one two sessions ago against a player who was running 6/2/.02 over 1,000 hands with a 0.0 three bet range. I didn't have confirmation over this but was it worth %85 of my stack to find out that I was behind most likley %90 of the time?

With no reads or stats whatsoever getting it in preflop in this situation is insta!. This is also to say that you have NO reads on an opponent. If you have some ROCK I repeat ROCK solid read. This could and or should overide your stats if you have any on an opponent.

I won't flame anyone for folding KK preflop as long as they have good reasoning behind it. There have been too many times where I rationalized my rock opponent's PF 4bet when I had KK, telling myself his range was QQ+ and maybe KK. I've lost more than I've won in those situations.

I happen to play a lot at these stakes lately and to be honest, this would be a tough call. I have layed down KK pre-flop before and I believe correctly and have seen other pots where I definitely would have folded and have seen it showdown to confirm my suspicions. Basically, there are several players at these stakes who LOVE to get AA pre-flop and push. In fact, Dustin talked about implementing a similar strategy in his operation. Having reads on a player is pretty critical. Any player with a VPIP% less than 10% is a prime candidate and you should proceed with the utmost caution. If the player is pretty loose and has been seen pushing once or more before, then it's probably worth going along for the ride. But, the crux of the problem is that most sane players at all levels with a decent stack are only going to want to push pre-flop with two hands - AA and KK. If you have the KK, odds are he has aces. And, Phil Gordon has said that the 3rd large raise is almost always aces - especially if it's all-in.

For this hand specifically, I think you had enough information to lay it down. For starters, villain raised 6x the blind - that's a pretty big raise from any position, but especially early position. I think I would have been content just to see a flop, maybe hit a set and then destack him. But, you chose to raise, which is fine, too, but then he pushes. Your read on him is that he hasn't shown down after 50 hands, VPIP% of 30%, and 6% pf raise - all of that is more evidence he has aces. He's not ultra-tight, but only slightly loose. He hasn't gone to showdown because he doesn't want to unless he has the best hand. He hasn't been raising much pre-flop and all of the sudden he 4 bets all-in.

Maybe my opinion will change as I move up, but for the stakes I've been playing, my opinion at the moment is that I just don't feel the need to try to gamble in situations like these. If I get my money all in with a good stack. I want it to be because I'm confident I have the edge. Don't get me wrong, I don't fold KK often pre-flop, but there definitely can be times where it needs to be done and knowing your villain is biggest piece of the puzzle.

Man if I ever feel like my bluffs never work I'll just remember at 5NL somebody probably folded KK against me preflop

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Originally Posted by Parasurama

Man if I ever feel like my bluffs never work I'll just remember at 5NL somebody probably folded KK against me preflop

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What are your PF stats? Bluffing here is a lot more successful running 12/8 than 38/21.

I to have fold KK a couple times pre-flop and typically in this type of situation where he comes over your big reraise all in. That said I only did it after NOT doing it numerous times and loosing many stacks cuz I couldn't read the telegraph the villian had just sent me! I still think overall you can consider this a cooler and not beat yourself up over it.

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Originally Posted by kb coolman

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Originally Posted by Parasurama

Man if I ever feel like my bluffs never work I'll just remember at 5NL somebody probably folded KK against me preflop

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What are your PF stats? Bluffing here is a lot more successful running 12/8 than 38/21.

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My statement was pretty much a joke. But like 16/13 FR and 21/18 6max. It's changed a lot since 5nl though. There I used to play passively pre except with nut hands and just exploited terrible postflop skills. I'm guessing maybe like 19/11?

I def. calling PF the first time around

as played I don't see myself ever folding KK PF 100bb deep

move up to where they do it with a wider range then

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Originally Posted by iopq

move up to where they do it with a wider range then

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lol +1[/url]

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Originally Posted by kb coolman

I won't flame anyone for folding KK preflop as long as they have good reasoning behind it. There have been too many times where I rationalized my rock opponent's PF 4bet when I had KK, telling myself his range was QQ+ and maybe KK. I've lost more than I've won in those situations.

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I agree with this. I have folded KK pre-flop in a cash game exactly once-- and my reads were right, as not just one but the other TWO players in the pot who had shoved both turned over pocket aces! (One of them was a person I have seen many times at no limit tables and who is one of the biggest nits in history. He would never shove a full stack (which he had) after a raise with anything short of aces. That's why I folded. The other guy, I didn't know about.)

But I never condemn people for relying on their reads. Good reads are so important that when someone has the conviction that they have narrowed down a tight Villain's range all the way to pocket aces only, I can't blame them for folding. Certainly better than donking it into the pot anyway and basically knowing you are going to be a 4 to 1 underdog.

What I do advocate is being very, very careful about coming to the conclusion that a Villain must have aces. As other posters have noted, even if there is just some chance of a broader range, you often have enough equity to make the call.

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Originally Posted by dev

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Originally Posted by iopq

move up to where they do it with a wider range then

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-1[/url]

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FYP

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

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Originally Posted by dev

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Originally Posted by iopq

move up to where they do it with a wider range then

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-1[/url]

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FYP

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yeah -1 is more like it. Typical of iopq to post some stupid one line garbage reponses in a thread because he racing himself to get his post ticker higher.

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Originally Posted by Parasurama

Man if I ever feel like my bluffs never work I'll just remember at 5NL somebody probably folded KK against me preflop

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It was a 4-bet shove. I didn't fold to a 3-bet or an inital raise. Just for the record I can't ever see myself folding KK pre. There's only one player in my databse that I would fold (only against a 4-bet), but I wouldn't ever 3-bet him if he open raises because he only does it with AA, therefore I'd never be facing a 4-bet in a situation where I would fold KK period...

...It's pretty gross though how I'm pretty sure everytime I've called a 4-bet shove I've ran into aces. I'll have to check my database on this to see if I'm only remember those times that it works out like that. I'm sure I forgot all the times people had worse or my kings just sucked out.

At 5NL, if 4-bet shoves really are that rare, and we have many many other, safer, edges to exploit, is folding KK to 4-bet shoves (against certain villains) just a variance limiting play? Idk I've been thinking about it and it makes sense as long as our opponents don't adjust (by 4-betting wider) but my poker dogma is screaming DON'T FOLD KK PRE.

Here's another way to think about it. If you can't fold KK in this situation with these reads, when could you?