These are the hands I'm talking about

I get stuck here everytime.. call, call, all-in shove. No reads on the villain but based on this board I would say he hit trips which is why I tossed the river.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($7.61)
MP1 ($9.65)
MP2 ($1.43)
Hero (CO) ($9.44)
Button ($3.44)
SB ($4.48)
BB ($4.28)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
UTG raises to $0.20, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.80, 3 folds, UTG calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.67) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1, UTG calls $1

Turn: ($3.67) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $2, UTG calls $2

River: ($7.67) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG bets $3.81 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $7.67 | Rake: $0.35

The only other option is for me to check the turn but that gives me little chance for me to improve on my hand and possibly for more chance for him to improve hisl.

I wouldn't 3-bet an UTG raiser with TT. Microstakes players are generally too passive to raise UTG light, so unless you've got a read he's laggy, just call.

But after you do, you're repping TONS of strength, so when he c/c's your flop bet I wouldn't fire the turn because there aren't many hands you beat anymore.

No reads = err on the side of caution, which means we should give villain a range of {TT+, AQ+} on the flop, which your hand is shit against. After he calls your flop bet I'm giving him {JJ+,AK} (or maybe KQ if he's loose), but regardless I don't think you should put any more money in after the flop bet is called.

That's what confused me.. if he had AK or or KQ he checked TPGK/TK.. so I assume he missed. And being it's 5NL he could've had K rag and flopped 2 pair. Most people won't slowplay that in the event of getting sucked out on. If he had JJ or QQ I could see a check but c/c the flop and turn and auto shove the river tells me he didn't have it. By him check calling me down, I thought he was going for a suckout somewhere.

Could also be your image. Have you established yourself as someone who constantly bets, raises and folds but never calls? If you're seen as very aggressive he's much more likely to be trapping you to let you hang yourself.

You sound like you're building big pots at times when it may not be correct to do so. I would have liked to see a check on either flop or turn - maybe even both. You have a hand with showdown value, you don't need to build the pot so aggressively that you cannot possibly be good if he calls. Also go to Robb's operation thread and read the most recent post by bjsaust where he quotes a post in his own operation thread about range manipulation and how we sometimes manage to manipulate our range in a way that is to our detriment.

Also, buy PNL and take part in the book club.

I agree with not 3BETing TT vs an unknown UTG raise. It also doesn't have to be so big, 3x is standard when you have position. He'd likely check this flop with any hand, expecting you to CBET and if he has KQ, AK or KK+ it's easy to just call because the board is very dry. The turn doesn't change anything in this situation so another check call is easy if he expects you to bet. Overall his line is very strong (c/c, c/c, shove) and he's loving his hand. Check behind on the turn and fold the river.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

I get stuck here everytime.. call, call, all-in shove. No reads on the villain but based on this board I would say he hit trips which is why I tossed the river.

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How about putting villain on a range and stating in this thread what you believe his range to be? Because I can assure you that he likely does not have trip 2s.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

That's what confused me.. if he had AK or or KQ he checked TPGK/TK.. so I assume he missed.

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What is wrong with checking this flop with a hand like AK, KQ? Betting is NOT the only way to get value when you have a good hand. And here in a 3bet pot where you have taken intiative preflop, him donk leading AK/KQ/AA/KK type hands probably isn't the best decision.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

And being it's 5NL he could've had K rag and flopped 2 pair.

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While it is plausible he flopped two pair with either K9, or K2, it is highly unlikely. And while it probably occurs more frequently at the micros, trust me it still occurs at higher stakes as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

Most people won't slowplay that in the event of getting sucked out on.

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Checking here with KQ, AK, KK, AA, etc is not really slowplaying. THe pot is already relatively big since it's a 3bet pot and he can easily get the money in. It's simply playing correctly against your range. For instance, say you are 3betting TT+, AK here (which is bad). If he donk leads into you on the flop with a hand like KQ you are likely to call AK, KK, AA the majority of the time. You will likely be able to either find a fold with TT, JJ, QQ on the flop or certainly fold the turn if he bets again.

However, if he check/calls with KQ, sure he is still behind KK, AA, AK, but now you are the one with the possibility to make mistakes with TT, JJ, QQ.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

By him check calling me down, I thought he was going for a suckout somewhere.

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This is incorrect, as I have already explained above. But also you say you think he is "going for a suckout somewhere". Well your hand is extremely marginal here in this position. If anyone is in need of a suckout it is very likely to be you.



A few things to note. (1) You seem to over-value your hand and are continually trying to prevent villains from "sucking out on you".

(2) You aren't considering villains range correctly. And if you are even putting villain on a range of hands, you seem to be weighting that range in an incorrect manner (such as putting emphasis that he could possibly have flopped two pair with hands like K9/K2, instead of acknowledging the hands that he will appear with here more often like AK, KQ, KK, AA, QQ, etc.)

(3) Quit trying to prevent suckouts and bad beats. I've seen you post about wanting to shove multiple times the pot size to prevent villains from calling with their flush draws and sucking out. This is the incorrect way to look at it. If you do shove multiple times the pot you are HOPING villain calls with a flush draw, because you made a load of money. Even if he hits the flush and drags the pot he made a call when he was not getting proper pot odds. Therefore, you profit.

Just realized I didn't even really look at the hand history much, only the logic behind your reasoning.

Hand history wise, you shouldn't be 3betting TT here against an unknown UTG raise. His range should be relatively strong, and not many worse hands will call. Your hand is perfectly profitable to call his open with. Plus given that your deep makes it even more worthwhile for you to call here as your implied odds are larger than if you were only 100bb deep.

So just call preflop. If he cbets the flop, you can call one street here hoping to see a relatively cheap showdown. If he checks the flop I'm checking behind on the flop as well.

Ok then I did learn something here. I am over valuing TT at 5NL FR because all the books and articles I've read place TT as a group 2 or 3 hand.

So if I just call a UTG raise with TT am I hoping for a low card flop? Because a raise from UTG usuallly means AQ+ but at 5NL it usually means QJo+ lol.

I do have a shoving habit though I've toned it down a bit. But sometimes I will shove the pot in a situation where I have AA, the flop is suited suited x and the villain has a small enough stack. Woldn't you say thats correct there?

I'm not sure if your over-valuing TT or not, because it is a strong hand. But you want to play it in a way that will maximize it's expectation. Which range of hands would you rather play TT against (1) 66+, AQ+ or (2) JJ+, AK. It's clear you would rather play agains the number 1 range. Well, by 3betting you are making it more likely that villain will have something similar to the range of hands in #2. Whereas by calling he will have something similar to range #1 (but this is obviously very opponent dependent).

Well when you call you are obviously hoping for a flop with a Ten. It's hard to tell you how you want to play the hand just based on the cards that come on the flop, turn and river, because your decision should depend on more than just that. However, of course you would rather see a flop like 2h5d9c than a flop like AhKdQd.

Another thing... You seem to be just lumping every villain you encounter at 5nl into a "donk" category. While it's true you likely won't find pros grinding it out at 5nl (don't even bring up the negreneu, Jesus, etc stuff), not every player you encounter is going to be a massive donk. If that were the case then you are saying you fall into that category, along with many other 5nl players right here on FTR. Things in poker are very situational, and one thing that can change a situation dramatically is the villain in which you are playing against. Without reads/stats, you can really only make a generic assumption. That's why reads/stats are so important. It can easily change villains UTG opening range from something like 66+, AJs+, AQo+, KQs to something similar to 22+, AT+, KJ+, QJ+ just depending on the villain.

Also being honest when I say that if you would just take the time to self-review this hand you posted and then post it up here that you will benefit from it a ton. I can sit here and tell you all of this stuff, but it would open your eyes more if you went through the process yourself. So form a realistic range of hands that villain would play that way preflop. Then take that range and apply it to his actions on the flop, turn, and river and eliminate hands that don't fit accordingly.

Also if you were to state what you are hoping to achieve when you make a play on each street you are likely to see why your play in this hand is below average. So you have his range, what hands do a bet here get called by? How does your hand stack up against that range? What hands does your bet fold? Looking at his range does it make sense to 3bet preflop? Does it make sense to bet the flop? All of these you should sit down and consider, and post back here with IMHO.

When he called your over-3bet, that told me alot about what he was holding. Many players at 5NL will instafold to a 3bet because it screams AA, KK.

I wouldnt be surprised to see him with KK here.. at 5NL a lot of peeps are afraid of AA or getting outflopped by AK. I can't see him slowplaying AK then shoving the river. I guess 99 or even AA is possible too.. I've seen slowplay rear its head at those stakes a ton. It actually was a damn good flop to slowplay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

No reads on the villain but based on this board I would say he hit trips which is why I tossed the river.
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then why are you 3-betting TT here pre-flop?!?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

Ok then I did learn something here. I am over valuing TT at 5NL FR because all the books and articles I've read place TT as a group 2 or 3 hand.

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You seem to be thinking in terms of absolute hand strength.

Think relative to his range. Sure it's a "group 2" hand, but what hands is an unknown raising UTG? It's not often group 3-7 hands, passive microstakes players usually limp or fold those, so that leaves generally strong hands. Calling keeps his range a little wider, where 3betting narrows his range to something that TT doesn't really like.

TT in a BvB or SB vs BU is much stronger because villain's range is much wider. Both his raising and 3bet calling ranges are generally wider, so raising in those spots makes more sense. It's also stronger if you know villains' raising A8o UTG and will call a 3bet with it.

Put villain on a range, see how your hand compares with that range. Can you get value from a weaker range, or are you closer to the bottom of the range that your action will limit your opponent to?

range range range range range range range.

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Originally Posted by Sasquach991

When he called your over-3bet, that told me alot about what he was holding. Many players at 5NL will instafold to a 3bet because it screams AA, KK.

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This is true. Players who don't 3-bet light often assume nobody else does either, so when they get 3-bet they often take it more serious. Unless they're massively loose of course...

Everyone else has addressed the preflop (which is a leak of mine - just had some flaws in my 3bet thinking pointed out by spenda and BJaust this morning). I'm curious why you bet the turn? After 3betting and get called on the flop, what hands could he have that you beat?

This is an interesting spot for me because we would get MORE information from NOT betting here. (I detest "bets for information" but that's a whole other post.) The pot is about $3.70 on the turn. He has $5.80 left. When you bet $2 and he calls, it sets up a half-pot river bet that tells you nothing other than you're beat. But he's read you for some strength and a willingness to get it all-in, so his bet is automatic, and perfectly sized because YOU manipulated the pot for him.

If you check behind, he's got an interesting decision. Now, the pot is $3.70, and he can't get all his chips in without overbetting the pot about 1.5x. Also, with a check behind on the turn, you've shown some weakness, so he's not really sure if you'll call an all-in bet.

He's got 3 options basically:
1. Half/two-thirds value bet around $2
2. Pot-sized bet around $3.50
3. All-in shove

Each of the three reps a bit of a different range. I think the key thing to notice is that the overshove (#3) is incredibly easy to get away from, so it's unlikely that he'll try it. He'll probably try #1 trying to get more value from his hand, and you risk less overall.

I know that we don't wanna call the river here, regardless of additional information (since we know we're pretty well beat before the river), but the point I am making is that you destroyed any chance you had of learning more about his hand with your turn bet, and you made it easy for him to play his entire range correctly against your range. When you do have equity in a hand like this but are uncertain where you're at, planning ahead can get you the extra information you need to play the river correctly.

Quick overview of your game: you're making a mistake I used to make all the time, playing each "street," not planning out the hand. I used to think in terms of "I'm probably behind, but a bet here could (might) take it down." Now, I try to think what will happen on the next couple of streets if I bet and get called, or what I'll do if I get min-raised, or shoved on, or donked into, or whatever. Of course, that means I think of what villain's range is and decide how he might play each part of it, and the "range range range" mantra has already been pounded.

I think you need to consider ranges AND plan your hand based on those ranges. Try to think one whole street ahead, and try for more streets as you get more practice. It would have saved half a stack in this hand had you considered the river while thinking what to do on the turn.

Keep posting HH's, revolver. It won't take long to iron out some leaks in your game. This one hand had two big mistakes, and it sucks sometimes to hear about them. But we all understand that you're not posting the hands you KNEW how to play and did well with. I used to be embarrassed with posting HH's, worried folks would think I was donkey (which I am, but I don't like ppl KNOWING it).

We've all been there, lost in a hand, not knowing which end was up. We posted it on FTR, got some feedback and learned something. Keep posting the hands you know you butchered, and you'll plug your big leaks in a hurry. Guys like Stacks will make sure of it. :wink: