Having some trouble getting out of 5NL

I think that my game at 5NL is pretty solid. I can take down small pots and I can fold in the right spot for the most part. I play most hands in position and I've learned to get rid of the "tempting hands" AJo KQo QJo QJs ATo etc unless I'm CO or button. I can outplay those who multi-table and play ABC poker because they are predictable.

Here's the problem - I can't grow my bankroll. What happens is, I'll play for two hours and be up two or so buy ins. Then something will happen and I'll lose it all and go back to where I started. It mainly happens at the loose tables which are supposed to be where the profit is made. At the loose tables, people will call raises with anything and then hit miracle flops...

So bad beats are devastating. It's not a loss of a little bit of money, all bad beats are all ins for entire buyins at more (and at poker stars the buy in for 5NL can be as high as $10) For example - if I'm in a pot with AKs and the flop is Axx rainbow and I lead in, it always ends up with me being all in against another all in to have a showdown of T5o where he hit 2 pair. THIS HAPPENS SO MANY TIMES IN A SESSION IT'S UNREAL. Bad beats are bad beats and I get my money in where I'm supposed to but when I'm playing full rings and I raise 8x the bb and get a million callers, someone will hit something. And I'll lose a buyin like that.

I'm wondering if I should tighten it up at 5NL to reduce this happening. If I get pot committed with a loose donk, I lose too much money because very rarely do they have TP weak kicker, it's always two pair or better.

Maybe I should only pot commit or go all in when I have the absolute nuts? It's just an observation that with TPTK and I bet 80% of the flop to take it down and the guy reraises x 20 with an all in, I should probably get away because even though getting my money in might be smart, the showdown always ends up me losing to junk.

Plus c-betting doesn't work at 5NL unless it's in the morning with the multi table grinders which are easy to outplay :)

1) stop thinking you're good and admit your game is leaky as hell
2) quit focusing on bad beats
3) focus more on learning & growing as a player than growing your bankroll

...

...

x) profit

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

I think that my game at 5NL is pretty solid. ... Here's the problem - I can't grow my bankroll.

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If you're pretty solid, then all you have to do is play enough hands and your bankroll will grow. How many hands have you played @ $5NL?

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

For example - if I'm in a pot with AKs and the flop is Axx rainbow and I lead in, it always ends up with me being all in against another all in to have a showdown of T5o where he hit 2 pair. THIS HAPPENS SO MANY TIMES IN A SESSION IT'S UNREAL. Bad beats are bad beats and I get my money in where I'm supposed to but when I'm playing full rings and I raise 8x the bb and get a million callers, someone will hit something. And I'll lose a buyin like that.

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If you get your money all-in good, then you're good and have nothing to worry about except playing enough hands. If you get your money all-in bad, that's bad and you need to do some soul searching to figure out why that keeps happening. It doesn't matter that you had the best hand preflop. TPTK with a good hand doesn't entitle you to the pot. You have to learn to play post flop, too. I play at these stakes and rarely do I raise 8x and get a million callers, but for the sake of argument if I did, I would start raising 16x or whatever it took to isolate and if I could shove all-in with AA and get a caller or two, even better. Work on adjusting to your tables and learning how to beat them based on how they are playing.

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

I'm wondering if I should tighten it up at 5NL to reduce this happening. If I get pot committed with a loose donk, I lose too much money because very rarely do they have TP weak kicker, it's always two pair or better.

Maybe I should only pot commit or go all in when I have the absolute nuts? It's just an observation that with TPTK and I bet 80% of the flop to take it down and the guy reraises x 20 with an all in, I should probably get away because even though getting my money in might be smart, the showdown always ends up me losing to junk.

Plus c-betting doesn't work at 5NL unless it's in the morning with the multi table grinders which are easy to outplay :)

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It sounds like you're generalizing and trying to come up with a one way system, but in the broader sense, I think you need to focus on reading your villains and understanding the table dynamics and react accordingly. There will seldom be a one size fits all approach to success at the poker table.

Good luck.

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Plus c-betting doesn't work at 5NL

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wait.

WHAT?

The problem is not what they have at showdown but what they have when you get the money in. Are you saying you can't win with AK or JJ+ when guys are playing T5o or other junk. Are you saying that nobody can beat the $5NL game anymore?

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...od-t53415.html

Seriously.

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Originally Posted by d0zer

1) stop thinking you're good and admit your game is leaky as hell
2) quit focusing on bad beats
3) focus more on learning & growing as a player than growing your bankroll

...

...

x) profit

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I agree, I'm a newbie as well, but I've learned a bit about the game so far. I'm assuming by the way you talk about multi-tablers, that you don't do so yourself. I used to not multi-table until I realized the boredom of it resulted in impatience, which translated to having higher hopes per hand than I should.

Is it possible this is your problem? You play a patient game, and when you finally get a hand, you have trouble letting it go because you don't want to wait another 15 minutes before you get a decent hand? You might want to add another table or two to spice things up a bit.
I know it sure helped me, and my profit margin went through the roof because I didn't have such high hopes per hand than I would of when I was single tabling.

As far as "reading the fish" goes. It's not easy, because often times they don't really know what they're doing in there, and they'll play their hand in a way that makes sense to them, without regard to any kind of common sense approach to the hand. Not to mention it varies from fish to fish. Good news is, fish don't go to great lengths to disguise their play, so once you figure them out, they're money is as good as yours.

Just my observations...

Why are you so anxious to get out of 5NL? I liked it so much I decided to go back to 5NL from 10NL (not really but that's my story)

Whatever you do, don't move up to 10NL until you are ready because you will absolutely HATE being forced to move back down. Losing 4BIs in one session is nothing compared to that feeling. But being forced to move down made me realize that I suck at poker. I still suck, I just don't suck as much as I did then.

When you begin moving up levels, you will look back and in a weird way be grateful that you didn't hit a rush and move up before you actually sucked less

Found this in your other thread:

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At 5NL on my laptop I play 7-8 tables at a time. They are small and cluttered all over the place. I get my reads by noticing who is multi-table-ing like me and those who are, I assume they are tight ABC, otherwise everyone else is a donk that plays crap hands.

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Advice: Cut back on multitabling. Dropping down to 4 tables should help as it will force you to pay more attention to the game. You'll learn more.

Also it sounds like you are categorizing multitablers into one category altogether, I wouldnt suggest doing this. Just take constructive notes like 'seen villian play top/top like this....seen villian check the nuts on flop of xxx....seen villian show up with 67s in 3-bet pot...'. I'm not saying those are the best notes to take, there are probably way better ones to take, but I find that just paying attention to how opponents play certain hands its pretty productive. It helps you recognize when you're beat.

Keep in that that just because someone is multitabling doesn't mean they are playing every hand the same way you do. The more notes you can collect and the more lines of play you pay attention to that your opponents take, the greater your edge will increase, thus allowing you to win money. Remember, just because 2 players have the same stats of say, 15/10/2.5 does NOT mean they play the same game. There are much deeper factors (i.e. positional awarness, how plays villian plays sets, etc. ) that make up a players game. Everyone is different. General categories are a great use for someone you don't know much about, but as you play against that player more and more, you should be discovering more and more. This will allow you to narrow your perceived image of the way that person plays, and the picture will become more accurate than just a generalization.

Keeping good up-to-date notes will remind you when that donk has his 2-pair, because chances are, it might be played the exact same way.

I guess I basically posted a reply to your other post here, but I did mostly because I think my reply should go in this thread.
It's best you not rush moving up anyway, when you make it to the next level you want to be able to own it, not let it own you. GL sir.

I have reported this story a million times on FTR, but I spent nearly a year at 10nl, winning, but unable to move up successfully to 25nl. Take a shot, hit stop loss, move down. Wash, rinse, repeat. I worked on my game - REALLY worked. Took one shot at 25nl and moved quickly through it to 50nl (where I'm winning over 35k hands). Guess what I'm trying to say is that I sucked at poker. When I didn't suck, the level ups came easy.

Read the link from ISF that's posted above. It's awesome. And honestly a lot of my wins at 10nl were POSITIVE variance, not my amazing pokah skills.

In my year-and-a-half on FTR, I have seen dozens of guys go from below 25nl to 100nl and above. Here's what I see them do.

1. Establish sound bankroll guidelines
2. Post lots of HH's
3. Read lots of strategy threads and comment
4. Post some ideas to get feedback
5. Stop playing tilted, tired, drunk, sick, etc.

Generally, they get involved here, admit they have mile-wide leaks, and figure out how to fix them.

I am beating 50nl, not quite crushing it, but winning solidly. And I have huge leaks in my game. I don't plan enough, don't read hands as well as I should EVERY time, I get too loose, I chase hopeless draws too much, I play small hands in big pots too often, I don't maximize my earn on monster hands, I'm too predictable, I (sometimes) play too many tables, I don't quit when I'm tired/exhausted. I could go on and on about the things I am working on.

Just trying to help, so I'll ask a question. What leaks have you identified? What parts of your game are you working on?

How many hands have you played at 5NL anyway?

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Originally Posted by Airles™

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/forum/psychology-the-beauty-of-admitting-you-re-not-good-t53415.html

Seriously.

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Damn I thought I was going to be the smart one 2day! :?

READ THIS NOW!!!!

you'll probably need to play 30k hands at 5nl to get to 10nl FR.

That means if you're playing playing 4 tables at 250 h/hr that means you'll need to play 120 hours, or 4 hours a day every day for a month.

Have you done this?

I've played several thousand hands in my poker career..

Back in 06 where bankroll guidelines were more lenient and online gambling was legal, the common thing was to deposit $50 and jump right into 10NL. I did that. Although I lost my first time deposits, on my 3rd, 25k hands later, I had $262 which at the time, meant I could move to 25NL (back then having 10 buyins was considered a good bankroll for the stakes, boy have things changed).

So I was beating 10NL back then by playing ABC poker.

It's different at 5NL. If someone thinks they have the best hand, it results in both players going all in. All the time. THere are no cheap showdowns - I've tried. That means if someone with a $5 bankroll and no avatar and playing only 1 table reraises your bet, he has something; his junk hit. And now you have to commit an entire buyin to get your money in.

By the way, whatever happened to reading players? THat was a fad back in the day - now it's more mathematical. Get your money in when you have the odds on your side, fold when you don't.

Anyway for example, here are most bad beat hands go for me at 5NL. AKs. I raise 4x the blinds. Villain calls. Flop hits. TPTK. Great. 66% flop bet. Villain calls. Turn comes. It's junk. This time i pot the turn. Villain calls. Hmm, he's calling me down? What does he have? Trips? Two pair? A straight? River hits. Could be trouble now, potential straight, backdoor flush or fullhouse completion. Check. Or bet the river. Regardless of what I do, villian shoves all in at this point. I can either call and say goodbye to another buyin or I can laydown which means I was betting TPTK for nothing. Either way, I lose a lot here. And when I call? 96o straight. 63s flush. J7o fullhouse.

The above scenario screws me over several times a night and is the reason why I cannot grow my BR.

EDIT: Also, a lot of the advice given on this site is intended for 50NL and above. Questions are asked such as "what was the villains range, is he loose or maniac? TAG?"

There are no reads at 5NL. People play any hand they think is good. Their range is 72o+. The only readable players are the ones who are multi-tabling and figured out how to insert avatars. They all play TAG ABC poker and are easy to manipulate (I call their PF raises with pocket pairs and shove the flop if no broadways appear, they will fold everytime).

However, at 50NL, while there are some fish, most people have their game straight and know what cards to play in what position. They are more easy to read because you rarely expect to see UTG Q4o hitting a full house

Have you considered building bigger pots earlier in the hand by:

1. 3betting more ip
2. Cbetting the flop bigger, and overbetting (say 1.5 x PSB) the flop some.
3. Ditching TPTK when you get raised on the flop or bet into on the turn.
4. NOT cbetting air so much.

Just curious. Good luck beating 5nl. I know it's really tough these days.

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Originally Posted by Robb

Have you considered building bigger pots earlier in the hand by:

1. 3betting more ip
2. Cbetting the flop bigger, and overbetting (say 1.5 x PSB) the flop some.
3. Ditching TPTK when you get raised on the flop or bet into on the turn.
4. NOT cbetting air so much.

Just curious. Good luck beating 5nl. I know it's really tough these days.

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But that's the thing! They never reraise on the flop or bet into me on the turn! If they did that, I would have info and could throw it away. They always just call and finally shove the river.

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

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Originally Posted by Robb

Have you considered building bigger pots earlier in the hand by:

1. 3betting more ip
2. Cbetting the flop bigger, and overbetting (say 1.5 x PSB) the flop some.
3. Ditching TPTK when you get raised on the flop or bet into on the turn.
4. NOT cbetting air so much.

Just curious. Good luck beating 5nl. I know it's really tough these days.

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But that's the thing! They never reraise on the flop or bet into me on the turn! If they did that, I would have info and could throw it away. They always just call and finally shove the river.

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Ok, this sounds like you're getting beat like a drum, IMO. If villains are consistently taking a line that ends up pwning you, you're either on a horrible run of negative variance or (most likely) you have no idea where you are in the hand.

You really need to work on player tendencies and calling ranges. If they're hitting draws on the river to suck out, then meh. You need to be consistently betting heavy into these guys and punish the draws. The one you lose will be more than paid off by the 5 you win. On the other hand, if they're calling you down with the monsta nuts, then you need to better understand player tendencies. Why would I bet into you and scare you off when I have a moster hand when you seem more than willing to have your stack commited by the river?

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Originally Posted by kb coolman

You really need to work on player tendencies and calling ranges. If they're hitting draws on the river to suck out, then meh. You need to be consistently betting heavy into these guys and punish the draws. The one you lose will be more than paid off by the 5 you win. On the other hand, if they're calling you down with the monsta nuts, then you need to better understand player tendencies. Why would I bet into you and scare you off when I have a moster hand when you seem more than willing to have your stack commited by the river?

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This would be easy to do at 50NL. But not at 5NL! As I said before, there are no "reads" or ranges for 5NL players. Want to know what their range is? 72o+. They can have anything. I have seen the most ridiculous cards turn over at showdown and crack my QQ or AKs. And plus 5NL players don't think like "im gonna slowplay and shove him off his hand" they think "i have a pair of jacks, that's pretty good. in home games i win with that alot"

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

I've played several thousand hands in my poker career..

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Several thousand is not 30k.

Sorry that you actually have to learn something about the game.

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

I've played several thousand hands in my poker career..

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Several thousand is not 30k.

Sorry that you actually have to learn something about the game.

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The last time i checked poker tracker before I quit 2 years ago I had 41k hands on it. That's not enough?

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

How many hands have you played at 5NL anyway?

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MCAT THEOREM STRIKES AGAIN!

Revolver, you seriously aren't good at poker. We can tell that just by reading your posts here. You have very limited knowledge of concepts, and you likely apply what you do know incorrectly. And quit bitching about not being able to read a 5NL player, and their range being 72o+. This is not the case, and even if it was man that would be nice.

Go read, learn, and improve. You should be spending more time reading than at the tables at this time. But you don't. You sir have failed to reinvent the wheel. Now go out and get design plans from others who have successfully built the wheel.

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

MCAT THEOREM STRIKES AGAIN!

Revolver, you seriously aren't good at poker. We can tell that just by reading your posts here. You have very limited knowledge of concepts, and you likely apply what you do know incorrectly. And quit bitching about not being able to read a 5NL player, and their range being 72o+. This is not the case, and even if it was man that would be nice.

Go read, learn, and improve. You should be spending more time reading than at the tables at this time. But you don't. You sir have failed to reinvent the wheel. Now go out and get design plans from others who have successful built the wheel.

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This post was so unconstructive, as most of your posts to beginners usually are (seriously, don't you have anything better to do? besides jacking off to 13 year old girl porn all day?) that I've made it a point to filter out your posts permanently from now on. It was intended to flame me, can I flame you back? Mods? :)

Oh dat 13 year old porn.. Me loves it!

And yeah I think I'll stick to my initial strategy. You suck. Your a terrible player of cards. You bitch and moan about how unlucky you are, when in reality it's you that sucks and not your luck. And until you actually realize this you will keep your bitching ass at 5nl and will not improve.

Jailbait Gallery here I come!!!

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

This post was so unconstructive, as most of your posts to beginners usually are

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hahaahahahahahahahhahahahhahahahaahah

/in before :lock:

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

This post was so unconstructive, as most of your posts to beginners usually are

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hahaahahahahahahahhahahahhahahahaahah

/in before :lock:

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I luz you swiggidy!

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Oh dat 13 year old porn.. Me loves it!

And yeah I think I'll stick to my initial strategy. You suck. Your a terrible player of cards. You bitch and moan about how unlucky you are, when in reality it's you that sucks and not your luck. And until you actually realize this you will keep your bitching ass at 5nl and will not improve.

Jailbait Gallery here I come!!!

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Maybe I do suck, but what the hell is the point of this post? You don't have to be a poker master to beat 5NL. Have you ever heard of the term constructive critiscm, it's really a great social skill. It allows you to make friends and maybe even get a girlfriend (that's a big step up from being a pedophile :) ).

I'm sorry your struggling so much Revo. 5NL was a cake for me. I actually started at 10NL 6max and started 5NL FR before I moved to 10NL FR. Weird way to do it but starting at 10NL and learning lots of strategy there made 5NL seem like the players were the same way you were describing- very loose/spewy/chasey/profitable.

Chances are you're just not that good at adjusting to your opponents.

Whether or not your reads are correct IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER. If your reads are PERFECT you must be bad at adjusting to their range or exploiting their tendencies. You've already named a lot of their tendenices/leaks, why aren't you exploiting them? Perhaps you just don't have the knowledge of how to do so at the moment, but that's why you're here, to get better.

If you feel like you're adjusting perfectly then obviously your reads/hand-range reading skills are not good enough.

It's one or the other, sometimes it's both!

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Chances are you're just not that good at adjusting to your opponents.

Whether or not your reads are correct IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER. If your reads are PERFECT you must be bad at adjusting to their range or exploiting their tendencies. You've already named a lot of their tendenices/leaks, why aren't you exploiting them? Perhaps you just don't have the knowledge of how to do so at the moment, but that's why you're here, to get better.

If you feel like you're adjusting perfectly then obviously your reads/hand-range reading skills are not good enough.

It's one or the other, sometimes it's both!

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You are dead right here and this is something I've picked up. Depending on the time of day I play, I have to adjust my aggression and range. When I play in the morning, the tables are filled with multi table grinders playing tight ABC poker. It's rare to find a table with more than 30% of the flop seen. So I can loosen up my range and not have to overbet to prevent suckouts. I tend to make more money in the morning and have less variance because I can somewhat read those players.

At night, however, is when all the casual, loose as hell players come out to play. Very easy to find tables where the averaeg pot is half a buyin and the % of flop seen is 40%+. This is where most of my variance occurs and where I have the really bad beats. I've learned to tighten up here and play most of my hands at MP3 or better unless I have JJ+. I'm trying to follow the advice of this site and become even more aggressive here and instead of potting the flop or turn, 2x shoving it and raising way more PF than 4x.

We'll see how that goes..

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

and not have to overbet to prevent suckouts.

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I don't think you have an explanation for this that isn't wrong.

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Oh dat 13 year old porn.. Me loves it!

And yeah I think I'll stick to my initial strategy. You suck. Your a terrible player of cards. You bitch and moan about how unlucky you are, when in reality it's you that sucks and not your luck. And until you actually realize this you will keep your bitching ass at 5nl and will not improve.

Jailbait Gallery here I come!!!

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Maybe I do suck, but what the hell is the point of this post? You don't have to be a poker master to beat 5NL. Have you ever heard of the term constructive critiscm, it's really a great social skill. It allows you to make friends and maybe even get a girlfriend (that's a big step up from being a pedophile :) ).

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Yeah.. That's exactly what I should do right? Sit here and tell you that your likely playing perfectly fine poker and that you are just getting unlucky. That your beliefs about how 5nl players cannot be read, and how they ALWAYS catch just whatever they need is correct. I'm sure holding your hand and telling you that you don't need to put in hard work to improve is just what you need.

Instead of doing the above I would rather tell you straight up that you aren't as good as you think you are. You think you have a solid strategy at 5nl, and that your just getting unlucky and that's why you aren't at the nosebleeds yet. Well no. You likely suck and haven't put in the time and effort to improve yet.

I'm not going to sit here and stroke your ego and lead you to believe you are better than you are. You've already started numerous threads about how unlucky you are, and you have already stated that you don't want to read strategy articles at this time as a means of improvement. Well I am here to tell you that if you believe you are just one unlucky individual, and that if you believe articles won't improve your game, then you are going down a long and incorrect road to actually improving.

So to sum up the above... Quit bitching about your luck. Get to work reading, studying, and learning. Find flaws in your play and embrace them because this means you have room for improvement. Then figure out how to improve upon those leaks. 5nl players not being readable is incorrect and is not a leak.

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Yeah.. That's exactly what I should do right? Sit here and tell you that your likely playing perfectly fine poker and that you are just getting unlucky. That your beliefs about how 5nl players cannot be read, and how they ALWAYS catch just whatever they need is correct. I'm sure holding your hand and telling you that you don't need to put in hard work to improve is just what you need.

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This is the only part I read because your post was too long and most likely more flaming. Let me give you a lesson in social skills in case you are rusty from too much poker playing. Instead of saying "you suck newbie, you are trash and you will never be good" you could say "you know revolver, maybe you aren't as good as you think and by reading your other posts, I've noticed a couple of leaks you can work on starting with... "

That takes a lot of maturity, something which hardcore online gamers don't seem to possess.

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I don't think you have an explanation for this that isn't wrong.

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What's wrong with it? If you're against a loose player who is clearly on a flush draw, it's wrong to overbet on a street to prevent him from getting it? Why?

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

What's wrong with it? If you're against a loose player who is clearly on a flush draw, it's wrong to overbet on a street to prevent him from getting it? Why?

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Go to the BC Digest, and read the article about how we cannot make someone fold. We can only give them two decisions, mistake or fold. Think about it. If you bet $5 into a $3 pot, does that make it less likely for the draw to be completed? The cards fall regardless of our actions. And trying to force them to fold is dumb. If he's gonna call with those terrible odds then we should jump in the air heehee hooray! Overbetting is stupid unless you have a specific read that says he will call really large bets really lightly, then you valuetown his ass until he stops rebuying.

This all relates to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker. Learn it. Love it.

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Yeah.. That's exactly what I should do right? Sit here and tell you that your likely playing perfectly fine poker and that you are just getting unlucky. That your beliefs about how 5nl players cannot be read, and how they ALWAYS catch just whatever they need is correct. I'm sure holding your hand and telling you that you don't need to put in hard work to improve is just what you need.

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This is the only part I read because your post was too long and most likely more flaming. Let me give you a lesson in social skills in case you are rusty from too much poker playing. Instead of saying "you suck newbie, you are trash and you will never be good" you could say "you know revolver, maybe you aren't as good as you think and by reading your other posts, I've noticed a couple of leaks you can work on starting with... "

That takes a lot of maturity, something which hardcore online gamers don't seem to possess.

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I don't think you have an explanation for this that isn't wrong.

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What's wrong with it? If you're against a loose player who is clearly on a flush draw, it's wrong to overbet on a street to prevent him from getting it? Why?

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Are overbets ever necessary? Most places I've read, a bet should never be more than pot-sized. Why risk more than you stand to win unless you have the nuts? If someones gonna call a pot sized bet, won't they call an overbet? (unless its ridiculously oversized)

If you overbet, god knows what other kinds of leaks you got.

Both of you need to calm down. While Stacks could have possibly come off a bit nicer he is dead on with his analysis of why you are stuck at these micro-stakes levels.

You want him to give constructive criticism but you also have to be willing to take all critiques of your current game, otherwise this thread wasn't mean to help you improve, it was just another thread for you to vent.

If this thread does not turn around in a hurry I'm going to lock it.

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Originally Posted by Illfavor

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

What's wrong with it? If you're against a loose player who is clearly on a flush draw, it's wrong to overbet on a street to prevent him from getting it? Why?

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Go to the BC Digest, and read the article about how we cannot make someone fold. We can only give them two decisions, mistake or fold. Think about it. If you bet $5 into a $3 pot, does that make it less likely for the draw to be completed? The cards fall regardless of our actions. And trying to force them to fold is dumb. If he's gonna call with those terrible odds then we should jump in the air heehee hooray! Overbetting is stupid unless you have a specific read that says he will call really large bets really lightly, then you valuetown his ass until he stops rebuying.

This all relates to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker. Learn it. Love it.

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I've read that numerous times but I've seen numerous posts on here giving advice to bet 1.5x the pot on a certain street or to shove all-in on a certain street, which would be way more than the pot but it's getting your money in. So by this logic, if a guy only has a 35% chance to hit his flush, isn't the common advice on this site to get all your money in on this scenario? I'm sure I can pull up a ton of posts that signify this.

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

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Originally Posted by Illfavor

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

What's wrong with it? If you're against a loose player who is clearly on a flush draw, it's wrong to overbet on a street to prevent him from getting it? Why?

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Go to the BC Digest, and read the article about how we cannot make someone fold. We can only give them two decisions, mistake or fold. Think about it. If you bet $5 into a $3 pot, does that make it less likely for the draw to be completed? The cards fall regardless of our actions. And trying to force them to fold is dumb. If he's gonna call with those terrible odds then we should jump in the air heehee hooray! Overbetting is stupid unless you have a specific read that says he will call really large bets really lightly, then you valuetown his ass until he stops rebuying.

This all relates to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker. Learn it. Love it.

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I've read that numerous times but I've seen numerous posts on here giving advice to bet 1.5x the pot on a certain street or to shove all-in on a certain street, which would be way more than the pot but it's getting your money in. So by this logic, if a guy only has a 35% chance to hit his flush, isn't the common advice on this site to get all your money in on this scenario? I'm sure I can pull up a ton of posts that signify this.

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Correct me if im wrong, but once the moeny goes in, the decisions are over. The EV is already tallied, the rest is up to the poker gods. You've already commited him toa huge mistake by getting him to put his money in as a dog. But, if he only calls a certain size bet and doesnt hit, he can get away from it, thus minimizing his -EV. But if he DOES hit, he can make up for lost EV earlier in the hand by getting you to put the rest of your money in if he does, in fact, hit.

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Yeah.. That's exactly what I should do right? Sit here and tell you that your likely playing perfectly fine poker and that you are just getting unlucky. That your beliefs about how 5nl players cannot be read, and how they ALWAYS catch just whatever they need is correct. I'm sure holding your hand and telling you that you don't need to put in hard work to improve is just what you need.

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This is the only part I read because your post was too long and most likely more flaming. Let me give you a lesson in social skills in case you are rusty from too much poker playing. Instead of saying "you suck newbie, you are trash and you will never be good" you could say "you know revolver, maybe you aren't as good as you think and by reading your other posts, I've noticed a couple of leaks you can work on starting with... "

That takes a lot of maturity, something which hardcore online gamers don't seem to possess.

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Whew.. I'm glad you didn't read all my post. You wouldn't have liked what you read. It involved complex things like reading, studying, and learning. All of which I'm sure your looking to avoid.

And btw, I didn't read any of your posts either. I just saw child porn and went with it. Mmmm nomnomnom.




And BigSpenda.. I apologize to you if my behavior was incredibly incorrect here. I didn't mean to come off as a complete asshole. It's just OP has already done numerous things that I couldn't fathom doing if I was just beginning to come here and learn poker.

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Yeah.. That's exactly what I should do right? Sit here and tell you that your likely playing perfectly fine poker and that you are just getting unlucky. That your beliefs about how 5nl players cannot be read, and how they ALWAYS catch just whatever they need is correct. I'm sure holding your hand and telling you that you don't need to put in hard work to improve is just what you need.

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This is the only part I read because your post was too long and most likely more flaming. Let me give you a lesson in social skills in case you are rusty from too much poker playing. Instead of saying "you suck newbie, you are trash and you will never be good" you could say "you know revolver, maybe you aren't as good as you think

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

I would rather tell you straight up that you aren't as good as you think you are.

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I'm probably getting in trouble with spenda here, but I think revolver needs to understand. Stax is an amazing contributor here, encouraging FTR regs to post real comments, not just two words about something. He just held two group sweat sessions to help others learn poker in the last month. Revolver, he's just trying to "jolt" you out of the focus on luck. Admittedly, he might have been kinder to say it another way.

Listen, I've been flamed way harder on FTR, but anyone here can attest that I try to react without heat (and often succeed) and try to take it for what it's worth. I do suck at poker, and some folks have been honest enough to point it out. When they have, they have also been kind enough to help me work on stuff. I can't say enough good things about how much time BJaust spent helping me in Sept/Oct after pretty much saying "Robb, you suck at poker."

I guarantee that if you post 5 HH threads, Stax's advice will be some of the best you're likely to get on how to play better. I wish I could sit on his group sweat sessions, but it hasn't worked out yet. I learn from him every week.

We're all glad you're here. We'd be thrilled if you started learning and winning, too.

Go ahead and lock the thread. Stacks has completely ruined it with his trash talking, immaturity and negativity. Stacks, please stay out of my threads. I don't need your "advice." |Thanks.

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I'm probably getting in trouble with spenda here, but I think revolver needs to understand. Stax is an amazing contributor here, encouraging FTR regs to post real comments, not just two words about something. He just held two group sweat sessions to help others learn poker in the last month. Revolver, he's just trying to "jolt" you out of the focus on luck. Admittedly, he might have been kinder to say it another way.

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Some people respond well to outright disrespect; I don't. I treat everyone with respect until they outright disrespect me first. The point has gotten across - yes I suck. I know. I don't claim to be good and it will be awhile before I even become decent and that's okay. (But still, you don't have to be that good to beat 5NL :) )

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Originally Posted by saranacJACK

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

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Originally Posted by Illfavor

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

What's wrong with it? If you're against a loose player who is clearly on a flush draw, it's wrong to overbet on a street to prevent him from getting it? Why?

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Go to the BC Digest, and read the article about how we cannot make someone fold. We can only give them two decisions, mistake or fold. Think about it. If you bet $5 into a $3 pot, does that make it less likely for the draw to be completed? The cards fall regardless of our actions. And trying to force them to fold is dumb. If he's gonna call with those terrible odds then we should jump in the air heehee hooray! Overbetting is stupid unless you have a specific read that says he will call really large bets really lightly, then you valuetown his ass until he stops rebuying.

This all relates to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker. Learn it. Love it.

---

I've read that numerous times but I've seen numerous posts on here giving advice to bet 1.5x the pot on a certain street or to shove all-in on a certain street, which would be way more than the pot but it's getting your money in. So by this logic, if a guy only has a 35% chance to hit his flush, isn't the common advice on this site to get all your money in on this scenario? I'm sure I can pull up a ton of posts that signify this.

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Correct me if im wrong, but once the moeny goes in, the decisions are over. The EV is already tallied, the rest is up to the poker gods. You've already commited him toa huge mistake by getting him to put his money in as a dog. But, if he only calls a certain size bet and doesnt hit, he can get away from it, thus minimizing his -EV. But if he DOES hit, he can make up for lost EV earlier in the hand by getting you to put the rest of your money in if he does, in fact, hit.

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If it's true the stations won't fold, then bet bigger. If they'll chase a 1.5xPSB, then value bet like that. And it's even more ++++EV.

If you have big combo/draw, then yes revolver it is often correct to shove the flop. But it's not always correct. Sometimes, yes, sometimes, no. Don't look for pat solutions to poker problems, people. Try different tactics for different villains in different situations, and see what works best.

We can go round and round about what a player can do at a table, but the crux of the problem is that no matter what stakes or table you sit down @, you have to bring your skill set, assess the situation, and try to beat the game. If you don't beat the game, you have to learn how to beat the game. Anything a player does to you, you could do back to him or her and vice versa.

The common denominator in beating games is that the more mistakes players make, the easier it is to beat them if you are playing optimally or at least making better decisions than they are. Again, you have to play enough hands and make enough right decisions for this to work out. If you're consistently not moving up, then you are consistently not making sound decisions or haven't played long enough yet.

Good luck turning things around.

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

Stacks has completely ruined it with his trash talking, immaturity and negativity. Stacks, please stay out of my threads. I don't need your "advice." |Thanks.
)

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Oh but you do. Your just being too stubborn to realize/admit it. Stax's point = proven.

All I know is someone yelled at stacks' avatar. I'm not a happy camper.

Ahh...stax and kmind's avatar fitting nicely on one screen...all is good in the world.

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Yeah.. That's exactly what I should do right? Sit here and tell you that your likely playing perfectly fine poker and that you are just getting unlucky. That your beliefs about how 5nl players cannot be read, and how they ALWAYS catch just whatever they need is correct. I'm sure holding your hand and telling you that you don't need to put in hard work to improve is just what you need.

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This is the only part I read because your post was too long and most likely more flaming. Let me give you a lesson in social skills in case you are rusty from too much poker playing. Instead of saying "you suck newbie, you are trash and you will never be good" you could say "you know revolver, maybe you aren't as good as you think and by reading your other posts, I've noticed a couple of leaks you can work on starting with... "

That takes a lot of maturity, something which hardcore online gamers don't seem to possess.

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Whew.. I'm glad you didn't read all my post. You wouldn't have liked what you read. It involved complex things like reading, studying, and learning. All of which I'm sure your looking to avoid.

And btw, I didn't read any of your posts either. I just saw child porn and went with it. Mmmm nomnomnom.




And BigSpenda.. I apologize to you if my behavior was incredibly incorrect here. I didn't mean to come off as a complete asshole. It's just OP has already done numerous things that I couldn't fathom doing if I was just beginning to come here and learn poker.

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:) all gravy baby, your thoughts are in the right place

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What's wrong with it? If you're against a loose player who is clearly on a flush draw, it's wrong to overbet on a street to prevent him from getting it? Why?

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flush draws are a part of their range. "clearly on a flush draw" is the wrong type of thinking

overbetting is very exploitable, and if i knew you did this i'd c/c the flop and turn with a made hand, if two of a suit are out there. a PSB is enough to protect your hand and take away the correct odds for opponent to call

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I've read that numerous times but I've seen numerous posts on here giving advice to bet 1.5x the pot on a certain street or to shove all-in on a certain street, which would be way more than the pot but it's getting your money in. So by this logic, if a guy only has a 35% chance to hit his flush, isn't the common advice on this site to get all your money in on this scenario? I'm sure I can pull up a ton of posts that signify this.

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On the flop, I'll get it in if I have twelve or more outs and it'd be very ideal if i was the all in aggressor (nothing wrong with some extra fold equity). If you are sure that you have clean outs (generally straight and flush outs) where if you hit you will most likely have the best hand, then it is fine to get it in on the flop. You'll have more than 50% equity with two cards to come, additional fold equity, and being that there's already money in the pot it makes coinflip and near-coinflip situations very +EV

On the turn/river, I generally only get it in with the nuts or hands that are close to the nuts that I'm willing to stack off with. This goes especially true for the river.

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Ahh...stax and kmind's avatar fitting nicely on one screen...all is good in the world.

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:dance: :tsk:

Revolver, post up some hands and I think you'll quickly find out what you are doing wrong

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Originally Posted by AFchung

flush draws are a part of their range. "clearly on a flush draw" is the wrong type of thinking

overbetting is very exploitable, and if i knew you did this i'd c/c the flop and turn with a made hand, if two of a suit are out there. a PSB is enough to protect your hand and take away the correct odds for opponent to call

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Of course as part of their range. Just because I see two suited cards on the flop doesn't mean I automatically assume they are on a flush draw. I look at how they played preflop too. And also consider that they could think I hit a possible flush draw.

Against 5NL players, however, lots of them do chase flush draws no matter how bad of pot odds you give them. THese are the situations where i'd like to get more money in to get more value out of them missing.

Yup, you are having trouble and its mental.

For clues look at the title of the thread. I have not read the thread though, so it may or may not already have been highlighted.


edit: now i've skimmed through the thread. wtf's up with all the drama? It seems my previous assessment is spot on though.

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

You are dead right here and this is something I've picked up. Depending on the time of day I play, I have to adjust my aggression and range. When I play in the morning, the tables are filled with multi table grinders playing tight ABC poker. It's rare to find a table with more than 30% of the flop seen. So I can loosen up my range and not have to overbet to prevent suckouts. I tend to make more money in the morning and have less variance because I can somewhat read those players.

At night, however, is when all the casual, loose as hell players come out to play. Very easy to find tables where the averaeg pot is half a buyin and the % of flop seen is 40%+. This is where most of my variance occurs and where I have the really bad beats. I've learned to tighten up here and play most of my hands at MP3 or better unless I have JJ+. I'm trying to follow the advice of this site and become even more aggressive here and instead of potting the flop or turn, 2x shoving it and raising way more PF than 4x.

We'll see how that goes..

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this may sound superficially obvious to me , but if you are making more money and can read your opponents better in the mornings why don't you just play in the mornings and build the bankroll. Cut out or reduce playing at night so that you can start earlier in the morning.

Revolver, you gotta understand dude. Staxx isn't disrespecting you. Like Robb said, he's trying to "jolt" you into the learning process, cuz you just aint getting it. You think 5nl is all luck and no skill. Well, my friend, im gonna call BULL SHIT on that one. I agree 100% that a lot of the players at that level are just donking around, or are people that don't play poker very often. Thing is, learn to adjust to that. Keep putting your money in good and profitz will soon be coming at you.

You being stuck at 5nl should be alarm bells ringing off to you. Like you have repeated OVER AND OVER that these players are relying all on luck. If you know ANYTHING about poker at all, you would know that poker is a "long run" type of game. That is the beauty of this game. The fish can come in, sit down, and pwn for a session then decide that they are the next Doyle Brunson and start playing more. Then they don't understand why, 3 months later, when theyre BR is all gone, wtf just happened.

Meanwhile, if you are making the good decisions like you say you are, you will be making enough to get outta 5nl in a month or two. Patience is key my friend.

Sorry bout the long post, but heres a lil tip, a LOT of the best posts/discussions on here are long. Get used to reading them. And most poker books aren't one liners.

why are you caring so much about bad beats? if you get it in with the most equity then all is well

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Originally Posted by Revolver123

By the way, whatever happened to reading players? THat was a fad back in the day - now it's more mathematical. Get your money in when you have the odds on your side, fold when you don't.

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The mathematics are what you do when you have your reads, otherwise how do you know what your odds are?

Revolver needs to get over his ego and accept advice from assholes. Some of the best poker players are complete assholes, and if you can't listen to their good poker advice you're just hindering your own development as a player for some silly ego crap.


heat/kitchen and such.

Revolver wat the fuck is your problem buddy? This is just amazing tbh. These guys are all here to help you but man you have to be willing to take the help. Everytime I ask for help either through a post, IM or IRC these guys go way out of their way to help. They have the patients of Jobe as long as they see you appreciate it, and believe me I do. I feel like since finding FTR I have moved on from being the smallest fish in the pond to now maybe being "A baby shark" who is growing my big fin! I owe so much of it to the guys here who have given me great advice, kicked my ass now and then and yes told me how bad I suck along the way.
I have no idea what the purpose of you creating this post was. Did you just want everybody to tell you "You're right?" What good could have possibly come out of this? I know you could have listened to what they were saying and said "Aha maybe I do need to fix some leaks. Maybe I really am not as good as I thought I was. WOw I guess I really do need to spend a LOT more time reading and learning. Wow maybe I can learn to exploit these 5nl fishes."If you aren't beating 5nl then "YOUR NOT GOOD ENOUGH!"
Do yourself a favor and post some HH's and then sit back and listen. If you think the replies are harsh so fucking wat man take the advice and learn. The only purpose of FTR is to help all of us who want to improve do just that. But man if you don't want to learn then you're in the wrong place.
I apologize because I didn't read the entire thread because well it just made my blood boil. So I hope I'm not throwing gas on the fire and my intent was not to jump on the bandwagon of bashing you but really just hoping to help you open your eyes a little.
Hey one last thing I have to tell you about the guys here at FTR, they are pretty damn forgiving. Ask bigspenda if somewhere around his 100th post if he got all kinds of sideways with the crew!!!

To be honest, I could give two shits if someone who's here to help gets a little tough with their words. I'm not here to hold fucking hands with other members of FTR and sing kumbaya. I'm here to improve my game, build a roll and pwn the fishes! And when it comes time for me to climb out of the low-limits, I hope to be right back here in the BC giving noobs the same helpful advice I was given. I look at it like this. If you've taken the initiative to become an FTR member, then obviously deep down you know something is wrong with your game. Otherwise, why would you come here, to tell everyone how good you are? What sense would that make? The sooner people realize they are not the next Doyle Brunson, the better. See The Newbie Circle of Death.

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Originally Posted by Airles™

To be honest, I could give two shits if someone who's here to help gets a little tough with their words. I'm not here to hold fucking hands with other members of FTR and sing kumbaya. I'm here to improve my game, build a roll and pwn the fishes! And when it comes time for me to climb out of the low-limits, I hope to be right back here in the BC giving noobs the same helpful advice I was given. I look at it like this. If you've taken the initiative to become an FTR member, then obviously deep down you know something is wrong with your game. Otherwise, why would you come here, to tell everyone how good you are? What sense would that make? The sooner people realize they are not the next Doyle Brunson, the better. See The Newbie Circle of Death.

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Did you read my post? ;)

I think I've seen/read enough

{locked}