was i too greedy?..

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01-21-2009, 10:58 PM
xX zorrito Xx

was i too greedy?..

given the flop structure and villain is loose aggressive/aggressive based on about 300 hands i felt i had to insanely protect my hand after a cold call on the flop... especially after the turn... i instantly put him on some kind of ten or clubs...

am i losing out on serious money by betting out this much and committing both of us to the pot at the turn or should i have just potted the pot

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($10.60)
Hero (MP3) ($12.15)
CO ($4.85)
Button ($1.80)
SB ($4.70)
BB ($8)
UTG ($11.20)
UTG+1 ($7.45)
MP1 ($17.95)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
UTG calls $0.10, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, 4 folds, UTG calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.15) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.90, UTG calls $0.90

Turn: ($2.95) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $4
01-21-2009, 11:12 PM
AFchung

you shouldve potted the flop. that flop is super super super drawy

turn you shouldve potted again. a slight overbet on the flop or turn would be nice to really price out the draws, but $4 into $3 is a bit too much i think
01-21-2009, 11:14 PM
Illfavor

Pot pot. Overbetting kinda needs to be read specific (like...you're playing a station who will call it really often) and I don't see him calling $3 but folding to $4 or something. You're trying too hard to "protect" your hand.
01-21-2009, 11:15 PM

Just bet pot because if he holds a jack he instafolds to this large bet since it looks like you have an ace (when you actually have two)

if he has a strong hand you will have no problem getting it in
if he has a weak hand you're scaring him

btw betting pot is already enough to prevent his draws from being immediately profitable as long as he doesn't manage to extract your entire stack after hitting
01-21-2009, 11:21 PM
kb coolman

This seems to be a rucurring theme lately where people are overbetting the pot. I know I was guilty, too, and some quick minor adjustments have increased my BB/hr significantly over the past couple of weeks.

Pot bet here is fine. You don't need to blow him out of the pot.
01-21-2009, 11:28 PM

I overbet the pot routinely on the river when I think my opponent is paying off with a good, but second best hand often

this is not the case here
01-21-2009, 11:33 PM
xX zorrito Xx

i think these kinda plays def explain why my bb/hr in 10NL is significantly less (but positive) than when i play 5NL or 2NL... lol...

thanks everyone...
01-22-2009, 12:05 AM
AFchung

Quote:

Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx

i think these kinda plays def explain why my bb/hr in 10NL is significantly less (but positive) than when i play 5NL or 2NL... lol...

thanks everyone...

at 2nl and 5nl you can overbet shove the river with the nuts and get paid off. thats why your bb/hr was a lot higher
01-22-2009, 12:19 AM
Illfavor

I have seen no difference in the play between 5 and 10NL Full Ring.
01-22-2009, 05:36 AM
oskar

For bet sizing always try to visualize stack vs. pot sizes. In this case you start with a relative stack of $11
On the flop it's $10.5 with a $1 pot.
If you pot the flop then you will go to the turn with a $9.5 relative stack and a $3 pot. That way even a moderate bet on the turn, say $2 will get you to the river with less than a pot size bet left.
In this case I would pot the turn because the board is so draw heavy, but in general you want to pot, or bet closer to the pot on the flop more often, because it will make it easier to get your whole stack in by the river without overbetting any street.

Another situation where you should do this - I'm adding this because I saw something stupid today...
Say you are HU in a dead pot of $5 and $5 stacks with one player already all-in. You hold AA, and the flop is 27T rainbow. There is pretty much no way your opponent is drawing to more than 2 outs, and you want him to commit all his chips. Just remember that you have 3 streets of betting left... you get it... don't blow your load too early. Not really that related, but whateva.
01-22-2009, 11:35 AM
Monty3038

Re: was i too greedy?..

Quote:

Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx

given the flop structure and villain is loose aggressive/aggressive based on about 300 hands i felt i had to insanely protect my hand after a cold call on the flop... especially after the turn... i instantly put him on some kind of ten or clubs...

am i losing out on serious money by betting out this much and committing both of us to the pot at the turn or should i have just potted the pot

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($10.60)
Hero (MP3) ($12.15)
CO ($4.85)
Button ($1.80)
SB ($4.70)
BB ($8)
UTG ($11.20)
UTG+1 ($7.45)
MP1 ($17.95)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
UTG calls $0.10, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, 4 folds, UTG calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.15) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.90, UTG calls $0.90

Turn: ($2.95) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $4

I want to ask about a little different line here... using this hand as an example... now let's say were at the flop... he called your PF raise, which should narrow his range down quite a bit, probably then I'm putting him on a reasonable, if not great hand... he is loose but he is facing aggression and then he flats it...

Flop he checks, does this make anyone else leery? I mean his is LAGG so he could be trapping, could be totally missed, may be handing off initiative... what do you think? Also, we are ahead and want to get the monies in, but what do you think of a check here, helping him along to the thought pattern of... dang I had a good hand but missed on the flop... does that lead him more towards betting the turn?

I'm trying to analyze some different lines in similar situations... trying to determine which is potentially more profitable...
01-22-2009, 11:53 AM
kb coolman

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

I overbet the pot routinely on the river when I think my opponent is paying off with a good, but second best hand often

On the river, sure. By that time if you've got a full stack hand have made pot bets, you're pretty much obligated to put the rest of it in. Not so much on the turn unless you're trying to protect, right?
01-22-2009, 03:55 PM
Illfavor

Re: was i too greedy?..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monty3038

Quote:

Originally Posted by xX zorrito Xx

given the flop structure and villain is loose aggressive/aggressive based on about 300 hands i felt i had to insanely protect my hand after a cold call on the flop... especially after the turn... i instantly put him on some kind of ten or clubs...

am i losing out on serious money by betting out this much and committing both of us to the pot at the turn or should i have just potted the pot

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($10.60)
Hero (MP3) ($12.15)
CO ($4.85)
Button ($1.80)
SB ($4.70)
BB ($8)
UTG ($11.20)
UTG+1 ($7.45)
MP1 ($17.95)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
UTG calls $0.10, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, 4 folds, UTG calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.15) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.90, UTG calls $0.90

Turn: ($2.95) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $4

I want to ask about a little different line here... using this hand as an example... now let's say were at the flop... he called your PF raise, which should narrow his range down quite a bit, probably then I'm putting him on a reasonable, if not great hand... he is loose but he is facing aggression and then he flats it...

Flop he checks, does this make anyone else leery? I mean his is LAGG so he could be trapping, could be totally missed, may be handing off initiative... what do you think? Also, we are ahead and want to get the monies in, but what do you think of a check here, helping him along to the thought pattern of... dang I had a good hand but missed on the flop... does that lead him more towards betting the turn?

I'm trying to analyze some different lines in similar situations... trying to determine which is potentially more profitable...

A lot of donkeys will c/c a T or two clubs here. Giving either one of those draws a free card is simply horrendous. Our equity will probably be drastically changed by the turn card. I can't justify a check here.
01-22-2009, 04:25 PM
RoyalProdigy

if you check the flop you risk your hand and the pot. BUT if you check and the turn is a blank being as aggresive as he is he's gonna lead out and bet and you can checkraise him and take it down. if you smooth call your giving him another chance to draw out on you BUT I'm not sure how i would have handled the turn and let me tell you why. he SMOOTH called you. So YES i got trip aces and your like i KNOW hes on that draw so bam you hit the pot only to get raised all in and and the guy has Q-10o lol because hes LAG. So you think youre protecting your hand but in the end paying his hand off. This is such a scary board 88-99-jj Q-10 shoot being a LAG he could have a 10-7s J-9s etc etc etc lol. So really this is a tough board with a LAG. I like what you did but don't worry about protecting your overpair so much as protecting your entire stack. a LAG smooth calling you usually means hes got the nuts because hes not worried about your hand. I used to play LAG style poker and let me tell you what i did...BET at everything but the nuts. I would slowplay the nuts to the fullest to make them think im week and it worked in freerolls and 2NL but the further up the totem poll the more people spot it.

But about your hand i probably would have bet the 3/4ths the pot on the flop because being a LAG hes gonna call if hes on the draw. If the turn doesnt help i'm gonna bet the pot. By only betting 3/4ths the pot on the flop you might be saving yourself money if that scare card comes but your still protecting your pair by your Cbet. It sounds to me like you would know if he hit his miracle so you would be able to fold aces. Some people can't fold aces and treat them like they are a god. lol. I wouldnt over bet the turn like unless i was in a tournament under certain circumstances.