I think I over value TT PF. How should I be playing it?

Note: in both hands I had TT. I just copied this over from my operation thread and didn't think of it until I had already closed HH converter with hands in it, and I don't want to dig through my raw HH's looking for these two hands.

In this first hand I think he's only 3-betting with JJ+ AQ or AK. (But why would he raise so big? That's the part that really gets me. If he wanted action he could have 3-bet smaller, or just smooth called and made a big bet on the flop) I had JUST sat down at table so was my first hand with him. My only options were 4-bet shove or fold out. 4-betting seemed like a spewy line to take so I folded it out.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($1.68)
MP2 ($4.14)
MP3 ($2.86)
CO ($0.95)
Button ($3.28)
Hero (SB) ($1)
BB ($1)
UTG ($3.75)
UTG+1 ($4.81)

Preflop: Hero is SB with ,
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls $0.02, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.12, 1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.60, 3 folds

Total pot: $0.30 | Rake: $0


Lo and behold! Two hands later I get TT again on a new table. I would definitely have called the short stacks shove for .18 cents, but once the other guy shoves over I have to fold. What kind of hand should I expect for him to show up with here? Would I still be fine putting all my chips in against 2 all ins? Again it seemed like a really spewy line to take just shoving all of it PF with TT against two unknowns PF.

Against SS's range I think I'm doing ok for the most part. He might just be shoving two overs or a smaller PP. Obviously a bigger PP isn't out of the question, but for 9BB's more I don't think I'm going to fold.

Against UTG+1's range I think I'm going to be behind most of the time just for the simple fact that he raised a decent amount OOP. I figured I had to give him credit for a bigger PP or otherwise we would be in a coinflip situation and I didn't feel like flipping for stacks against two opponents.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP2) ($1)
CO ($2.11)
Button ($1.08)
SB ($0.38)
BB ($1.12)
UTG ($4.04)
UTG+1 ($1.56)
MP1 ($1.68)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with ,
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.10, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.10, 2 folds, SB raises to $0.38 (All-In), 1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $1.56 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $0.88

O and before anyone asks why my stack is only $1 it's because I'm trying to build my roll up to $50ish then I will start buying in for full 100bb's. I think my short stacking is solid enough to get me up to that. Plus I'm risking less of my BR by short stacking until then.

People undervalue TT pre-flop imo.

Hand 1: I lean towards limping here and hoping for an underflop or a set. I just absolutely hate playing out of position and I think I am probably too much of a nit from the blinds when it comes to raising limpers. This is kind of opponent-dependent as well because it could be a better play to raise if your opponents are habitual limp-folders, or limp-call and fold to c-bet often types. But I think either way, raising or calling, is generally +EV, it just depends on your opponents which is more profitable.

Hand 2: I play it the same 100BB deep against an unknown, I don't know how having only 50BB affects the situation. Reads help in this situation as well, especially 50BB deep where 3b/get it in is a viable option against some opponents with TT.

I'm thinking at the 2NL level I would widen his range up pretty far. Just sitting down at the table, you have no reads on opponent and he looks like he is defending his limp against your steal attempt... I think his range is pretty wide here (at 2NL) and needs to include a lot more... I hate to say it because it is probably spewy, but I snap shove this PF and cringe when his range is exactly as you specify.

Hnad 2 I think you're clobbered by his range... the UTG player that is... he needs a pretty good hand to be opening UTG, probably JJ+, AK and unless you've got some good data on him, this is a call for set value at best. Once the other hand comes along... well... I fold that mess, watch the showdown and take a good note on both players.

Never call the UTG limp/shove unless you know he's doing it with trash. Never call a shove with TT anyways. You're either flipping or dominated, unless villain is a total spewmonkey.
Don't call the shortstack shove/overshove either for exactly that reason. If it was shorstack is AI - one caller, and you have TT, I would consider overshoving. Not because you're expecting to be ahead of the callers range very much, but because he would probably overshove JJ+ himself, and if he folds AJ, AQ, KQ you are glad to take the dead money.

I would open TT in pretty much every position with less than 4 limpers. It's a little tricky on the flop, you'll have to figure out whether to c-bet or just checking it and going for thin value on turn and river. But the micro villains are so passive, that I don't see how you could misplay it other than stacking off with it when overcards hit.

FFor the AI situations - spend a couple of hours with Pokerstove... you won't regret it.

Thanks for all the feedback guys. And oskar, the Pokerstove is gonna have to wait a couple months til I get a non-mac laptop :(. But yea, other than that it's good to see different views on the subject.

Imo, TT is by FAR the most awkward hand for me to play. I always figure it to be ahead the majority of the time PF, until shown otherwise by my opponents (shoving over for example). After the flop however, unless it's all unders I'm never sure where I stand. And at 2nl its going to be pretty hard to find out unless we take it to showdown because most people are calling down if they hit ANY piece of the flop.

So idk, I might start posting more TT hands in the BC or even on this thread and get some feedback. I'll try to be as detailed as possible in what I'm thinking on each street from now on, as I think I was a LITTLE too vague in these examples. Hopefully I'll have some up by Sunday night!

Hand 1 I :shipit: because he has 66 LDO and he's like "WAAAH I DON'T GET TO SETMINE MOMMY MAKE HIM GO AWAY"

you see donks backraise PPs a lot because they know they're a flip vs. AK which is what they put you on when you raise PF

Hand 2 I hate flatting that raise 50BB deep (you're NOT setmining)
shove or fold


50BB deep you'll make money openshoving TT

I play JJ-99 pretty much the same and I really want to have position over any caller. If I get 2 or more callers I can pretty much guarantee I'm up against someone with an A, K or Q. If the flop has any of those cards I'm going to be real cautious, especially OOP. Obviously if the board is all unders or your up against only one opponent on a dry flop, by all means, get some value.

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Originally Posted by dranger7070

Imo, TT is by FAR the most awkward hand for me to play. I always figure it to be ahead the majority of the time PF, until shown otherwise by my opponents (shoving over for example). After the flop however, unless it's all unders I'm never sure where I stand. And at 2nl its going to be pretty hard to find out unless we take it to showdown because most people are calling down if they hit ANY piece of the flop.

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TT is doing decent against most callers' ranges on a J, Q, K, JQ, A flop, in roughly that order. I'm willing to throw a c-bet out there on any of the first 4 or 5 flops against one opponent, and probably on only the first 2 or 3 against 2+ opponents.

I don't know what you mean when you say it's going to be hard to find out if you're ahead unless you take it to showdown. Then take it to showdown! Most players at 2NL are pretty passive and will be happy to check/call anything less than TPGK. That means if they call your c-bet on an overcard board and then bet the turn, you're probably beat. Basically, if there's an overcard and they call, just check down to showdown and hope to be ahead. Sure, they'll suck out with a dumb hand sometimes, but much more often they won't. The only real mistake you can make is to keep betting when you're not doing it for value and you're not getting a better hand to fold. And if he shows up with bottom pair and you win, be happy! Don't feel bad you didn't suck more value out of him. You had TT on an overcard board... you got plenty of value preflop and on the flop.

With a hand like TT or JJ, if you break even on the boards with an over or two, you're in good shape. You're basically freerolling for the times when you hit your set or have an undercard board where you can get 2-3 streets of value.

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Originally Posted by DoanDiggy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dranger7070

Imo, TT is by FAR the most awkward hand for me to play. I always figure it to be ahead the majority of the time PF, until shown otherwise by my opponents (shoving over for example). After the flop however, unless it's all unders I'm never sure where I stand. And at 2nl its going to be pretty hard to find out unless we take it to showdown because most people are calling down if they hit ANY piece of the flop.

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TT is doing decent against most callers' ranges on a J, Q, K, JQ, A flop, in roughly that order. I'm willing to throw a c-bet out there on any of the first 4 or 5 flops against one opponent, and probably on only the first 2 or 3 against 2+ opponents.

I don't know what you mean when you say it's going to be hard to find out if you're ahead unless you take it to showdown. Then take it to showdown! Most players at 2NL are pretty passive and will be happy to check/call anything less than TPGK. That means if they call your c-bet on an overcard board and then bet the turn, you're probably beat. Basically, if there's an overcard and they call, just check down to showdown and hope to be ahead. Sure, they'll suck out with a dumb hand sometimes, but much more often they won't. The only real mistake you can make is to keep betting when you're not doing it for value and you're not getting a better hand to fold. And if he shows up with bottom pair and you win, be happy! Don't feel bad you didn't suck more value out of him. You had TT on an overcard board... you got plenty of value preflop and on the flop.

With a hand like TT or JJ, if you break even on the boards with an over or two, you're in good shape. You're basically freerolling for the times when you hit your set or have an undercard board where you can get 2-3 streets of value.

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Hey Diggy, as always your providing me with good advice ;). You're absolutely right that I shouldn't be mad that I didn't get more value out of a weaker hand on an overcard(s) board. God damn, I must be greedy! :shock:

I still feel like it's an awkward hand to play OOP, and I'm going to have to take ipoq's advice and just get it in with TT PF, and hope the moron doesn't hit his third 6.

Thanks for all the good advice guys. Keep it coming. I might put in a 2-3 hour session later on today, but I'm not sure. I just got out of work (11pm-7am=sucks ass) and I gotta do it again tonight. Tomorrow I'll definitely be getting some hands in, so maybe I'll get TT a few times and I'll post all the times I do.

Later

you cannot profitably call UTG+1's initial raise, but you surely can profitably shove over it.

edit: referring to hand 2

Spenda why is it good to shove with TT over a utg+1 raise? I find that people at micro have a very tight raising range in that position. I would say JJ+ and AQ+. I prefer to set hunt if the effective stack is atleast 14x the cost of the call. My trackers and stoxev tells me this is a good thing to do. Also i'm not trying to argue just trying to pick your brain

ok i just noticed up only has 1 buck at the table. Against a 10c raise he is way to short to set hunt . So this is a shove fold spot. Calling is really bad imho

TT is statistically a very EV + hand. It is one of those good karma hands. Others are AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs.

If TT is not strong enough for a 3-bet I would probably leave the table and go fishing elsewhere.