10NL-JJ set-KK-AKs-QTs on button

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01-17-2009, 04:21 AM
Sasquach991

10NL-JJ set-KK-AKs-QTs on button

I'm losing my BR on 10NL. If my play is bad I can accept that. I always loose to the Lagg player for some reason. I don't know how I can tighten up any more.

I think in general, I bet to make people fold and not to make money. I guess I hate seeing more of the board as I usually lose on the river. These hand are typical of what I've been seeing lately. This usually happens when the table has 3 or 4 Lagg players, me (16/8/2.5), and another player with stats similar to mine. The others are usually 45-70/0-10/xx. I try to be aggressive when I get hands like these but they are usually calling stations. Usually if villian is still in by the time I get to the Turn, I start doubting my hand which is why I will make a low bet on the turn or push. I have watched all of the videos many times and I don't understand why Spenda does some of the things he does. I think I'll watch them again while the wife is shopping.

Hand 1

Reads-This was villians 1st hand so no reads. Later I noticed he was a push/fold player.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($6.75)
MP ($0.60)
CO ($4.75)
Button ($2)
SB ($1.05)
Hero (BB) ($10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
UTG calls $0.10, 2 folds, Button raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.40, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.15) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $1.50 (All-In), Hero calls $1.50

Turn: ($4.15) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($4.15) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $4.15 | Rake: $0.20

Hand 2

Villian is 50/3/1.5 over about 60 hands. Essentially a calling station

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($8.70)
BB ($10.50)
UTG ($6.45)
Hero (MP) ($10)
CO ($4.90)
Button ($10.45)

PF- I usually open with 4bb. With the limper I made it 5bb.

Preflop: Hero is MP with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
UTG calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.50, 2 folds, SB calls $0.45, 2 folds

Flop-With 2 hearts on the board I wanted to chase off flush draw so I overbet

Flop: ($1.20) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.50, SB calls $1.50

Turn-I started doubting the strength of my hand here and I thought I could scare villian off. I guess it was a weak bet
Turn: ($4.20) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.50, SB calls $2.50

River-I figured I was beat here
River: ($9.20) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $9.20 | Rake: $0.45

Hand 3

Villian was 18/12/0.5 over 16 hands so no reads really

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($7.15)
MP ($13.90)
Button ($0.80)
SB ($8.70)
Hero (BB) ($13.90)

Preflop- SB's open was esentially a weak open so I bet 5bb
Preflop: Hero is BB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
3 folds, SB raises to $0.20, Hero raises to $0.50, SB calls $0.30

Flop- I believe I'm ahead here so I don't bet pot
Flop: ($1) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.70, SB calls $0.70

Turn-I started doubting my hand here again and instead of min betting I did the shove
Turn: ($2.40) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $12.70 (All-In), SB calls $7.50 (All-In)

River: ($17.40) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $17.40 | Rake: $0.85

Hand 4

Villian was 38/4/2 over 50 hands

After looking at this again I should have folded pf as I'm waay behind.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($19.60)
CO ($11)
Hero (Button) ($15.80)
SB ($10.10)
BB ($4.25)
UTG ($5.55)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
1 fold, MP raises to $0.50, CO calls $0.40, Hero calls $0.50, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.55) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
MP bets $0.10, CO raises to $0.50, Hero raises to $1.60, 1 fold, CO calls $1.10

Turn: ($4.85) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $2, CO calls $2

River: ($8.85) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $8.85 | Rake: $0.40
01-17-2009, 04:35 AM
Parasurama

Hand 1 is standard and there's nothing else you can do on the flop, I probably try to get it in preflop though.

Hand 2 is also standard but I don't know why you need to bet so much on the flop

Hand 3, why overbet so much on the turn? Just bet ~$2.00 and get it in on the river. Without reads this isn't really an interesting hand.

Hand 4, fold preflop. Flop is good imo but a weird spot that I don't get myself into much so I'm not sure. Turn, you should either be betting more or checking through imo. River is good.
01-17-2009, 05:02 AM
bigspenda73

Hand 1- 3bet PF, with UTG's stack you probably could jam, but I think you make UTG make more mistakes if you 3bet to like $1.50. If the button flats and has 50 cents behind yes you're stacking off on any flop even if it comes AKx

Hand 2- stop overbetting the flop if you're going to underbet the turn, what is that? Just bet like $1 on the flop and then like 85% of the pot on the turn, especially on this type of board, that will set up an easy river shove which you should do if the river card is a brick.

Hand 3- PF needs to be like 65 cents at the least, 3betting is standard/good and you should stack off PF if he 4bets or goes all-in. Flop bet is good, turn is awful again, why are we overbet shoving 3x the pot on the turn?

Hand 4- PF is bad, fold, once again, turn bet is awful

PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY YOU OVERBET SHOVED THE TURN IN HAND 3 BUT UNDERBET THE TURN IN 2 AND 4 ON SIMILAR BOARD TEXTURES
01-17-2009, 05:05 AM
bigspenda73

Also do you have any reads at all?

If not start paying attention to your opponents, if you do have reads please edit your posts to include them.
01-17-2009, 05:19 AM
Robb

Re: 10NL-JJ set-KK-AKs-QTs on button

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

I'm losing my BR on 10NL. If my play is bad I can accept that. I always loose to the Lagg player for some reason. I don't know how I can tighten up any more.

Maybe the trouble's not preflop. Hands 1 & 2 are pretty standard. What I'm seeing in Hands 3 & 4 points to poor judgment postflop about the value of your hand and how use your actions (bet/call/raise/fold) to maximize your earn.

Hand 3 turn is horrible. You've made a nice hand into a bluff instead of betting it for value. Hand 2 turn is interesting, but your actions indicate you're a bit lost, here. QTs isn't a terrible hand to cold call w/ on the BTN, but why barrel the turn? Pot control is probably a good idea with no kicker.

You seem to be questioning where to look for leaks in your game. I would focus on postflop, especially the turn, based on these hands. And like Spenda said, any reads here would help, especially on the non-standard hands.

Good luck getting back to winning.
01-17-2009, 10:47 AM
kb coolman

I concur with pretty much all that has been said here. Tight pre-flop play is not your problem, neither is being too much of a nit post flop.

Hand 1 is just ridiculously coolered with runner runner for a board straight where any K makes you a loser. Bad luck here, my friend.

Hand 2 is standard.

Hand 3, I don't get the jam. There are cheaper ways to lose when you're beat by the flopped 2pair or set.

Hand 4 confuses me. Unless the villan is raising PF like 40% or something, QTs is too weak to call the raiser here from the button. So you call and end up in a real pickle where you hit top pair and have absolutely no idea where you are in the hand. Overall, I don't like this one at all.

And if you're lost, try a subscription to GrinderSchool. I just got the 3 month one a while ago, just thinking 'What the hell, I'll give it a try." I can say that is has been a tremendous help watching the vids as the instructors are explaining their actions in relation to position and opponents. Worth the $$, IMO.
01-17-2009, 11:31 AM
Illfavor

Have you watched all the vids here (no offense at all GS, b/c I'm sure it's an excellent investment and one that I will make when I get up to 25NL)? Spenda's microstakes series is simply the best collection of themed vids you will find (for free) anywhere. He talks about bet sizing a lot. Proper bet sizing is good. In these hands you have great holdings and likely ran into better ones. That happens. Move down at your stop-loss but if you aren't beating 10NL then I don't think the stakes are the problem.
01-17-2009, 11:57 AM
Parasurama

It would satisfy my curiosity, and I think the responses would help you, if you walked us through your reasoning for your betting amounts on each of the streets in these hands Sasquach
01-17-2009, 12:04 PM
jyms

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfavor

Have you watched all the vids here (no offense at all GS, b/c I'm sure it's an excellent investment and one that I will make when I get up to 25NL)? Spenda's microstakes series is simply the best collection of themed vids you will find (for free) anywhere. He talks about bet sizing a lot. Proper bet sizing is good. In these hands you have great holdings and likely ran into better ones. That happens. Move down at your stop-loss but if you aren't beating 10NL then I don't think the stakes are the problem.

Not sure why you say no offense to GS? You know it's all the same guys doing the vids at GS, in fact, some of the vids here are GS vids, including some of Spenda's
01-17-2009, 01:29 PM
Illfavor

Quote:

Originally Posted by jyms

Not sure why you say no offense to GS? You know it's all the same guys doing the vids at GS, in fact, some of the vids here are GS vids, including some of Spenda's

KB had suggested he join and I was suggesting watching the free vids first. I didn't want you guys to think I was trying to block business for ya. Thaaat's all.
01-17-2009, 03:06 PM
Sasquach991

See edits and thanks
01-17-2009, 04:22 PM
bigspenda73

Re: 10NL-JJ set-KK-AKs-QTs on button

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

After looking at this again I should have folded pf as I'm waay behind.

Not the correct thinking, we call a lot of times PF when we feel we're way behind, the question is when we make a hand does it actually get us way ahead?

Also, you still have not included any reads on your opponents, come on now, all these hands play much differently against a nit then they do against a calling station or against a loose-aggressive player.
01-17-2009, 05:32 PM
Sasquach991

Re: 10NL-JJ set-KK-AKs-QTs on button

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

After looking at this again I should have folded pf as I'm waay behind.

Not the correct thinking, we call a lot of times PF when we feel we're way behind, the question is when we make a hand does it actually get us way ahead?

Also, you still have not included any reads on your opponents, come on now, all these hands play much differently against a nit then they do against a calling station or against a loose-aggressive player.

I updated with HEM stats. Other than that that's all I got.
01-17-2009, 05:55 PM
bigspenda73

Re: 10NL-JJ set-KK-AKs-QTs on button

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

I updated with HEM stats. Other than that that's all I got.

boooo
01-17-2009, 06:54 PM
Sasquach991

I know but these guys hadn't played many hands anyway.

I'm also going to start 2-tabling instead of 3-tabling so I'll pay more attention. Plus I don't like playing with more than 10% of my stack at one time.
01-17-2009, 08:43 PM
Micro2Macro

Aside from the post flop leaks which have been discussed by others, you say your pf stats are 16/8. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in 6-max we shouldn't be limping into this many pots. It might help your win rate if your pf raise is closer to your V$IP %.

I've read in Renton's guide (I believe may have been somewhere else) that for full ring having your pf raise half of your V$IP is okay. I'm pretty sure for 6-max you would want your pfr % to be at least 3/4 of your V$IP.

As I don't play much 6-max, if someone could verify this advice that would be great.
01-18-2009, 03:32 AM
senorbum

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Aside from the post flop leaks which have been discussed by others, you say your pf stats are 16/8. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in 6-max we shouldn't be limping into this many pots. It might help your win rate if your pf raise is closer to your V$IP %.

I've read in Renton's guide (I believe may have been somewhere else) that for full ring having your pf raise half of your V$IP is okay. I'm pretty sure for 6-max you would want your pfr % to be at least 3/4 of your V$IP.

As I don't play much 6-max, if someone could verify this advice that would be great.

Yes.

As to OP: Before you make a raise/bet/check/fold ask you what it is trying to accomplish. Are you trying to bluff? Are you betting because you think you have the best hand? Etc. Etc.