5NL-QJo with UTG Calling Station

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12-02-2008, 02:13 PM
Sasquach991

5NL-QJo with UTG Calling Station

Villian was 80/5/1 over about 50 hands. I was about 9/3/2 over about 100 hands so I was wanting to get in a hand to see how villian would play it. Flop bet was an information bet to see if he had an A but he called (as usual) which told me nothing. I think I should have pushed after the Turn instead of pot size bet and really didn't know what to do after the River. Check/Fold River?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($10.88)
MP ($6.85)
CO ($1.63)
Button ($6.33)
SB ($7.81)
Hero (BB) ($4.93)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
UTG calls $0.05, 2 folds, Button calls $0.05, SB raises to $0.10, Hero calls $0.05, UTG calls $0.05, Button calls $0.05

Flop: ($0.40) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.15, UTG calls $0.15, 2 folds

Turn: ($0.70) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, UTG calls $0.70

River: ($2.10) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1, UTG raises to $2, Hero ???
12-02-2008, 03:26 PM
sarbox68

I'd be happier if you'd told me the flop bet was a blocking bet to price your draw rather than "betting for information"... pls don't bet for information into 3 villains.

You're cold-calling w/ QJo MW for straight draw or two pr value only. I prolly would check/fold that flop, as you don't even have 8 clean outs. I doubt anyone's reading u for an A with the pansy flop bet... prolly put u on a draw or 2nd pair - so fast forward to the turn & river action and I think the odds are good that a person who min-raises you on that River has the made flush (esp since this guy seems nitty as hell post-flop).

IMO you've either got to make a bigger Turn bet to price out the FD, with the assumption that that pretty much pot commits you... or give yourself room to bet/fold or check/fold the River if the flush completes.
12-02-2008, 03:50 PM
Sasquach991

"I'd be happier if you'd told me the flop bet was a blocking bet to price your draw..."

Sorry, I don't even know what this means.
12-02-2008, 03:55 PM
sarbox68

Assuming you'd have to fold to a pot-size bet from one of the vils, you open the betting with a smaller bet that, if called, still gives you close to the 4.7:1 odds (actually worse than that in this case, cause of the dirty outs...) that would be correct to see the next card w/ an open-ended straight draw. The general idea behind blocking bets is that in-position vils are less likely to raise you than they would to make a bet that would price you out of the pot (i.e. pot-size) if it's checked thru to them, thereby giving you your best chance to be able to see the next card.
12-02-2008, 06:30 PM
a500lbgorilla

check/fold river? really?
12-02-2008, 08:48 PM
GatorJH

Re: 5NL-QJo with UTG Calling Station

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

I was wanting to get in a hand to see how villian would play it.

Sorry, but this really cracked me up. How would you expect a calling station to play a hand?

I generally don't bet weak draws against calling stations, but will strongly bet made hands and big draws. In general, against most calling stations, bet bet and bet again when you are a favorite to win the hand.
12-02-2008, 09:06 PM
Sasquach991

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

check/fold river? really?

yes really, which brings up a question I've been wanting to ask. This may sound like a stupid questions for some. When people say they are commited what does that really mean? That they must call no matter what I assume. I'm sure it has to do with pot odds or something which seem to be 5 to 1 here to call. But If I'm pretty sure I'm beat, shouldn't I fold?
12-02-2008, 09:13 PM
Sasquach991

Re: 5NL-QJo with UTG Calling Station

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorJH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

I was wanting to get in a hand to see how villian would play it.

Sorry, but this really cracked me up. How would you expect a calling station to play a hand?

I generally don't bet weak draws against calling stations, but will strongly bet made hands and big draws. In general, against most calling stations, bet bet and bet again when you are a favorite to win the hand.

Most players were betting 3 to 4 bb on every street regardless of their hand and this guys was obviously calling. I wanted to see what he how he would react to a larger bet.
12-02-2008, 11:35 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

check/fold river? really?

yes really, which brings up a question I've been wanting to ask. This may sound like a stupid questions for some. When people say they are commited what does that really mean? That they must call no matter what I assume. I'm sure it has to do with pot odds or something which seem to be 5 to 1 here to call. But If I'm pretty sure I'm beat, shouldn't I fold?

I think this is a good post. But what does it mean to think you're beat? The answer better not be "I think his hand beats mine!"
12-02-2008, 11:41 PM
a500lbgorilla

As an example:

I have 44 otb and raise 3x, sb calls, BB 3bets to 11bbs. SB and BB have been 3 betting me a lot, specifically sb who had been 3b/f every time i raised flat called for only the second time. The first time he had JT. So I'm assuming he's 3betting me AJ+, KQs, 99+. I had folded to every one of SB's 3bets and none of BB 3bets because of SB always made it 21x and BB I always had a hand to defend.

Everyone calls the 3bet.

Flop is J64r

SB checks, BB bets too large for a cbet (he always had) I raise, SB flats (??? I immediately think he has 66 every time), BB folds. But because I thought he would do this with a range of only AA, 66 and there are more combos of AA possible than 66 AND because the pot was so huge on the turn AND because I have a set, I snapped his turn shove assuming it was +EV!

I wish I had the HH but it's on my roommates computer

Cliffs: I thought his specific hand beat mine, but my analysis was of his range of hands which I thought made the turn call thin but profitable.
12-03-2008, 12:30 AM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

check/fold river? really?

yes really, which brings up a question I've been wanting to ask. This may sound like a stupid questions for some. When people say they are commited what does that really mean?

In general, you do not want to fold once 1/3 of the smaller starting stack (effective stack) is in the middle. For example, if you are HU with an effective $10 stack, once you have $3.50 or so in the pot, you need to think long and hard about folding. If you have a $10 stack and vil has a $5 stack, once you have $1.50 of your money in the middle, the same applies as the 1/3 is of the smaller stack.

You should have a solid betting plan in place by the time the pot is equal to 1/4 of the remaining smaller stack. Much beyond this point, and your pot odds are going to make most laydowns a bad idea.

Another general rule of thumb is that once you put 10% of your stack in the middle, you are pretty much going to be at or past the commitment threshold (depending on effective stacks.)

This does not mean you close your eyes and ignore the board and activity. You could have half your stack in the middle already, and if an uber-passive villain wakes up and open shoves when the 3rd flush card hits on the turn, it's prolly not a good idea to call with your TPTK - commitment threshold be damned.

At the end of the day there are two basic ideas behind this idea -
1) The bigger the pot, the better justification you need to fold because of pot odds and the value of your equity vs their range
2) Plan your f-king hands
3) Plan your f-king hands

Okay that was three things.... but hope that helps.... :shock:
12-03-2008, 01:09 AM
a500lbgorilla

i hate general rules of thumb
12-03-2008, 01:29 AM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

i hate general rules of thumb

does that include the general rules of thumb of starting hands, ranges, bet sizing, fold equity, position, EV, etc?
12-03-2008, 06:32 AM
a500lbgorilla

sure, they can be fine, but my starting hands, ranges, bet sizing, fold equity, position, EV decisions are never based on general rules of thumb!
12-03-2008, 10:37 AM
Sasquach991

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sasquach991

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

check/fold river? really?

yes really, which brings up a question I've been wanting to ask. This may sound like a stupid questions for some. When people say they are commited what does that really mean? That they must call no matter what I assume. I'm sure it has to do with pot odds or something which seem to be 5 to 1 here to call. But If I'm pretty sure I'm beat, shouldn't I fold?

I think this is a good post. But what does it mean to think you're beat? The answer better not be "I think his hand beats mine!"

If I can't use that answer then I don't know the answer ...which is why I'm asking. In the abive HH, if I put him on a flush draw and he hits, what do I do? This is my biggest problem when playing. If I put villian on small pp and I hit two pair on the flop, make a pot size bet and get called, I never know what to do. Like I said, that's why I'm asking.
12-03-2008, 12:07 PM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

sure, they can be fine, but my starting hands, ranges, bet sizing, fold equity, position, EV decisions are never based on general rules of thumb!

I only have two thumbs which creates a problem with three or more rules.... especially when I am sitting on one of them....
12-03-2008, 12:46 PM
kmind

blah at not checking back flop and blah if anyone said c/f river

call river now, fuck it