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WTF!!??
For a long while I thought it was just variance but my sample is to big.
I know i suck but I'm tight, I bet for value and i occasionally make laydowns. SO WHY THE FUCK CAN'T I BEAT THE MICROS!
http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/4...raphyf1.th.pnghttp://img354.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif
http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/421...tatssz3.th.pnghttp://img50.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif
Someone please tell me what i'm doing wrong cuz i'm an idiot and i honestly have no idea.
is your play predictable?? if your playing really tight u might not be getting much out of your good hands as people know when your on something good.
do you ever bluff? ive found that occasional bluffing works for me because sometimes i take in down and if i do get called they think im a muppet and call me when im on a monster. when i say bluffing reasonable amounts tho.
then again im still pretty newbish but am making money slowly.
OK, based on our heads-up matches:
learn when to call
you are using like a bet/raise/fold strategy
that's using only a few tools in your toolbox
sometimes the best way to get value is to check/call with medium strength hands
your aggression factor is too high
try to get it down to 3
Pig_Vomit, I'm in the same boat, or recently was. I thought I was playing pretty optimally but having a heck of a time getting anything accomplished... I was break even then down a huge stretch. I have bounced back but I'm still not making the money I should be at 10NL. I've gone back to basics and re-read everything in the beginners digest I can, really strengthened back to 19 hands, playing position, position, position and have started to climb back out of my hole. I've layed down a lot of hands I probably shouldn't also, but I've worked very hard at developing reads and learning about pot odds (again). I've also stopped bluffing (well, almost stopped bluffing). The reads have been the biggest factor...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pig_Vomit
Hit IRC, post hands, I'll be glad to do what I can to help, but I'm a micro player who is just starting to see a minor profit... so maybe I'm not the best to ask, but will be glad to take a peek.
stop being such a nit. Yah, you're just trying to make every hand you play +EV but you're burning EV in all sorts of other spots. I mean 19/17 would be a tight overall game plan and that's your button percent!
Given how tight you are the second half of that graph looks like permanent tilt?
In terms of the stats, you're cbet percentage is too high i think. I guess since you're tight that ur range is probably a bit stronger than mine might be, but still 75%? Especially as your WTSD is 19%! You must be bet/folding the flop far too often, or simply giving up whenever you are called without a hand (which must be quite a lot given ur cbetting habit). I'm gonna guess you're losing a LOT of monies in non-showdown pots, which isn't necessarily a leak in itself but might be indicative of what i've mentioned above.
HH's would be helpful!
you cbet too much imo
I'm guessing you're playing a very generic style, without any specific reads on your opposition, so I'd suggest the following:
Play 2 tables and try to follow every hand that is being played (even the ones you are not in) and try to guess what hand (or sort of hands) everyone in the pot has. Hope for some showdowns so you can confirm and adjust your reads. If you sometimes have to make some dumb calls just to see their hands at this point, so be it.
Except in SB, where you seem to open up some. You're fine EP, imo. Tighten up in blinds, and open up CO and BTN ranges.Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Just curious, what stake is this?
This appears to be two levels - the bb/100 winrate of -7.37 is somewhere between 20nl and 25nl over 36k hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by L_Clan_Sup3rMaN
If hes mixing stakes maybe he should just go down to 2nl or 5nl until he gets used to it and gradually move up when hes winning consistently...
I'm guessing, since his average bb is .2246, that he played 30k hands of 25NL and 6k hands of 10NL.
PV! I want your eyes... eyes... right here on my eyes! Alright, got your focus.
What the fck do you think you're doing right with respect to this crazy game of NL hold'em ?
The answer is nothing and if you want to level with me I'll level with you!
Your blind play is atrocious. Get better at playing from them. Also when you play this tight you have to maximize your profit on every hand. If you increases you VPIP/PFR 2% this ovbiously leads to 2 more hands per 100. If you win one of those hands 'new' hands it will increase your bb/100 2-3 points.
Holy shit alot of helpfull suggestions...
Lets see if i'll listen lol.
2500 hands at 25nl
1200 hands at 10nl
Yeah your definetly right. To be honest i've never really understood pot control other then on the river and basically don't feel confident in a hand unless i'm the aggreser and either pump it or dump it. The problem i find with calling is that in later streets i don't know if villian is betting because i've shown weakness or the strength of their hand. Considering how diffrently i played in our heads up matches (which i wanna play more of once i'm back on my feet) compared to how i play in full ring this is pretty insightful.Quote:
learn when to call
you are using like a bet/raise/fold strategy
that's using only a few tools in your toolbox
Yeah your definetly right and this is really the only leak i've been able to identifiy myself and i'm currently working on plugging it. My non showdown winnings make me wanna puke.Quote:
In terms of the stats, you're cbet percentage is too high i think. I guess since you're tight that ur range is probably a bit stronger than mine might be, but still 75%? Especially as your WTSD is 19%! You must be bet/folding the flop far too often, or simply giving up whenever you are called without a hand (which must be quite a lot given ur cbetting habit). I'm gonna guess you're losing a LOT of monies in non-showdown pots, which isn't necessarily a leak in itself but might be indicative of what i've mentioned above.
You guys are probably right but i've never really found much success opening up on the CO and BTN (yeah i'm result oriented i know). I find that i either end up making another transparent c-bet or am forced to play a medium strgenth hand like top pair weak kicker which gets owned by villians supeior early postion range. thoughts?Quote:
a500lbgorilla wrote:
stop being such a nit. Yah, you're just trying to make every hand you play +EV but you're burning EV in all sorts of other spots. I mean 19/17 would be a tight overall game plan and that's your button percent!
Except in SB, where you seem to open up some. You're fine EP, imo. Tighten up in blinds, and open up CO and BTN ranges.
I would do this but i'm clearing the Full tilt bonus (only reason i'm not busto) and the lowest they offer is 10nl. Also overall i'm still a winner at 10nl (not lately) I just got pwned at 25nl.Quote:
If hes mixing stakes maybe he should just go down to 2nl or 5nl until he gets used to it and gradually move up when hes winning consistently...
I agree but i feel like a need some direction to start me on the path of doing things right.Quote:
PV! I want your eyes... eyes... right here on my eyes! Alright, got your focus.
What the fck do you think you're doing right with respect to this crazy game of NL hold'em ?
The answer is nothing and if you want to level with me I'll level with you!
Play tighter from the blinds or defend?Quote:
Your blind play is atrocious. Get better at playing from them. Also when you play this tight you have to maximize your profit on every hand. If you increases you VPIP/PFR 2% this ovbiously leads to 2 more hands per 100. If you win one of those hands 'new' hands it will increase your bb/100 2-3 points.
Thanks.
It's really easy
say you flop a medium strength hand like TPNK
you decide to cbet and your opponent calls
your opponent checks the turn and you check behind
then your opponent leads the river and you call
that's what's called pot control
if he has a better kicker, you put in two bets with top pair no kicker
if he has some draw that didn't get there on the river you caught his bluff
you lose the least when behind and still make money when you're ahead
if you did that your river aggression would be like 2
but since you always bet/fold like every street you end up putting three bets in with marginal hands that will only get action from better
note that you have to be in position to play these marginal hands since you can check one street behind... either the turn or the river usually
if you're OOP, you check to your opponent and might induce him to bet at you swelling the pot with a marginal hand... when you don't know if he has anything
this is why you can raise a hand like K8s from the button because you will probably be able to pot control if you flop a king since you're dumping the hand to any check/raise from your NL10/25 opponents
ban ban banQuote:
Originally Posted by franco.c1976
Wait so 75% cbet is a lot? Really?
I'm playing the 5-max games on boss media atm and my WTSD% is 20.1 and my Flop CBet is 74.6% over 25k sample.
I went on a huge heater the first 7k hands and ran at 15ptbb/100, but since trying to move up to 50NL and then coming back down I've been on a 10BI downswing. Averaging out my ~22k hands of 25NL at 7.5ptb/100.
So am I cbetting too much? I pretty much don't cbet multiway, only heads up on the flop, and only on boards with a high card or all low.
Clar
cbetting should be based on flop texture and the opponent.
You've got AKo, raise preflop, get a caller, and the board is 874 2-suited. Are you cbetting? If not, what would stop you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Clar17y
All villain dependant obviously but against unknowns:Quote:
Originally Posted by Robb
OOP I cbet and stop if called unless I spike an A or K.
IP if checked to I prob 1/2 check 1/2 bet.
IP if I'm donked into I let it go most of the time until I've seen villain do it regularly enough that it means he's trying to draw cheaply or he's weak.
If villain is some passive player I know won't bet without a hand and I'm OOP I'll sometimes check it to them hoping they check behind. If they are some crazy aggro donk that'll raise my cbet on that kind of board I might check/raise once in a blue moon.
Clar
You need to get better at the 1 on 1, IP and OOP play of the blinds.
Blind bb/100:
BB:
Acceptable: -40
Good: -35
Great: -30
SB:
Acceptable: -20
Good: -10
Great: 0
If your Blind play was acceptable you would have 'won' or not lost ~$275. If you were good it would have not lost ~$400.
The in and around the blinds are where 90%+ of the marginal spots will be, you cannot play fit or fold, you cannot let a BB run you over when you are the SB, and you have to play poker in these spots.
As far as your cbetting is concerned I think you are fine at 75%. This is only because you are soooo tight that your range would dictate that you have the top of your range on most flops.
this might be interesting... but i dunno i'm a donk.
pig how would you play this step for step?
30 hands on villain. 30/10/0.57
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (CO) ($23.80)
Button ($15.80)
SB ($12.70)
BB ($10)
UTG ($9.85)
MP ($19.95)
Preflop: Hero is CO with 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
UTG raises to $0.40, 1 fold, [color=#CC3333]Hero ???
HAND #2.
how about this one?
no stats on villain but saw him showdown another hand and pegged him as a big donk.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($11.65)
CO ($10)
Button ($3.10)
SB ($1.35)
Hero (BB) ($25.45)
UTG ($13.80)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
UTG calls $0.10, MP calls $0.10, 1 fold, Button calls $0.10, SB calls $0.05, Hero checks
Flop: ($0.50) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (5 players)
SB bets $0.30, [color=#CC3333]Hero ???
^^^This and the rest of this post seem like a great explanation of pot control. It helps me understand how to open up my range with position. ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by iopq
I kind of get it but aren't we commiting a cardinal poker sin by giving away a free card?Quote:
It's really easy
say you flop a medium strength hand like TPNK
you decide to cbet and your opponent calls
your opponent checks the turn and you check behind
then your opponent leads the river and you call
that's what's called pot control
Hand 1 call for set odds. I'd be tempted to 3 bet if villian was MP or CO. I generaly start 3 betting with jj+ without a read (I never have reads).Quote:
this might be interesting... but i dunno i'm a donk.
pig how would you play this step for step?
Hand 2 fold. Multiway limped pot, plenty of people get to act after me and a marginal hand.
Any suggestions where to start? I can only think of tightening up on the SB and opening up on the BB (Punishing SB limps with everything and playing against CO and BTN raisers which I don't really wanna do because i hate being OOP).Quote:
You need to get better at the 1 on 1, IP and OOP play of the blinds.
why don't you ever have reads... u r using poker tracker.Quote:
without a read (I never have reads).
HAND #1.
Quote:
Hand 1 call for set odds. I'd be tempted to 3 bet if villian was MP or CO. I generaly start 3 betting with jj+ without a read (I never have reads).
what do you do now?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (CO) ($23.80)
Button ($15.80)
SB ($12.70)
BB ($10)
UTG ($9.85)
MP ($19.95)
Preflop: Hero is CO with 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
UTG raises to $0.40, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.40, 3 folds, UTG calls $1
Flop: ($2.95) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, [color=#CC3333]Hero ???
HAND #2.
what now?Quote:
Hand 2 fold. Multiway limped pot, plenty of people get to act after me and a marginal hand.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($11.65)
CO ($10)
Button ($3.10)
SB ($1.35)
Hero (BB) ($25.45)
UTG ($13.80)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
UTG calls $0.10, MP calls $0.10, 1 fold, Button calls $0.10, SB calls $0.05, Hero checks
Flop: ($0.50) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (5 players)
SB bets $0.30, Hero raises to $1.20, 1 fold, MP calls $1.20, 2 folds
Turn: ($3.20) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero ???
Hand 1: C bet around $2
Hand 2: Check fold? (can't see where your going with this one)
Blind play is not easy to learn and it is obviously very player/table dependant. If you wanna get better you need to get reads and play off of them.
Things to try:
1. Open every SB when folded to you until you see the BB adjust. This will help you in your oop play with marginal holdings.
2. Call CO and BT raises, then donk the flop. You can kind of think of it as a cbet, then act accordingly. You will notice that some people will see this as being weak and some as being super strong, now all you have to do is be ready to adjust.
3. Get your steal % to 35+. This will help you see how weak these type of players are, and the spots you can put them in by knowing how they will react.
Quote:
Blind play is not easy to learn and it is obviously very player/table dependant. If you wanna get better you need to get reads and play off of them.
My biggest leak by far is not putting villains on a range and paying no mind to HUD stats even when i've got a significant number of hands logged. It's a result of shitty focus, attention span and of course discipline. Unfortunately theirs no quick fix (that i know of) and i'm guessing i'll only improve with practice. Thoughts?Quote:
This is good advice until the part in bold. There are plenty of other people at the table, probably playing more hands than you that you can watch out for dumb calls and weird showdowns in pots you arent even in. Dont start playing worse just so you can see an extra 1/6 showdowns.Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
dude, i would have replied earlier but i was away a week and didn't see this straight away when i opened FTR - sorry!! anyway
This is full ring, right?
* early position you could tighten up, fold AQo, pairs <77
* blinds look fine to me, except that small blind steal attempts are recognised as such by even the worst fish, be careful
* cutoff and button i limp/cold call more
* you c-bet more than i like, think about which boards will be perceived as missing your hand - and if they miss, maybe avoid c-betting etc.
* Steal more from the cutoff.
* Be very careful with mid-strength hands from the bb in limped pots....
also:
* are you playing bet-call on the river without nuts/reads? (Shouldn't be)
* are you ever check-calling rivers? (should be)
* are you putting villain on a draw and then continuing to bet when it hits? (shouldn't be)
* are you checking behind mid-strength hands with showdown value?(should be)
Im in the exact same boat mate,
A mounth ago i was loose, say 16/8/8.5.
I obv was loosing, so i sort some lessons off a good friend on pstars, now my stats are 10/8/3.
still have up and downs like most but slowly goin up.
It worked for me so if you know someone who is say on higher stakes and winning, try a few lessons.
gl :D
Your hand is so weak that you're not paying off any raises anyway so you end up only losing the potQuote:
Originally Posted by Pig_Vomit
losing an extra bet in addition to losing the pot is twice as bad since that bet is pot-sized
on the flip side, if you have a set on a drawy board it's the worst idea to slowplay since you're paying off when the draw hits
bet/raise every street
Sorry Sin, but this is an example of a good average regfish at pstars micros. They think the best adjustment is to just get tighter to fight a huge imaginary pool of donkeys! 16/8/8.5 being loose, ha!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin Value
So how do we exploit Pig_Vomit and Sin Value?
Didn't manage to find the post this quote came from but this is a huge leak! There are no cardinal rules in poker. And if there were, they'd never be so inflexible.Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
No, we aren't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pig_Vomit
It's LHE concept, where pot/bigbet ratio is so big, that losing some extra bets by overprotecting goodish hands is not that bad, while losing entire pot by giving freebie is one of biggest blunders . In LHE you want to maximize chances of winning the pot, when your hand gives you equity to fight for that pot.
In NLHE, postflop bets (and implied threat) are much bigger, than initial pot. Overprotecting with losing hand is more expensive, than in LHE, and main focus of extracting postflop value from losing ranges is much more important.
Holy crap their is some awsome advice in here.
After trying Ipoq's line a couple of times I now definitely see its merits. I understood check calling rivers but I never knew that EVERYONE bluffs the river when i check the turn.
lolz don't apologize I should have made this post like 20k hands ago.Quote:
dude, i would have replied earlier but i was away a week and didn't see this straight away when i opened FTR - sorry!! anyway
Mostly. Played a tilted 5-7k 6 maxQuote:
This is full ring, right?
I've been meaning to do this for soooooo long. Pocket pairs just look so good. Can my VPIP be the same in middle position as early position? Like do I have to open up my range gradually based on position or can I play uber nit until CO and BTN?Quote:
* early position you could tighten up, fold AQo, pairs <77
Yeah i'm not a fan of stealing from the SB cuz i have to play OOP and it's so transparent I do it though. I know I have to punish SB limpers more but yeah not entirely comfortable with my blind play.Quote:
* blinds look fine to me, except that small blind steal attempts are recognized as such by even the worst fish, be careful
Aren't you costing yourself money by not attempting to take down the blinds? Suited connecters and small pocketpairs right?Quote:
* cutoff and button i limp/cold call more
I've realized my c-bet percentage isn't the problem (well not entirly) I need to c bet for a reason like flop texture, opponents range and history instead on random spewage cuz i opened or have postion and think it's "my" pot. If i do this i'm thinking it will go down by itself.Quote:
* you c-bet more than i like, think about which boards will be perceived as missing your hand - and if they miss, maybe avoid c-betting etc.
I like to think i'm good with these (probably not) except for calling when i think villain hit his out.Quote:
also:
* are you playing bet-call on the river without nuts/reads? (Shouldn't be)
* are you ever check-calling rivers? (should be)
* are you putting villain on a draw and then continuing to bet when it hits? (shouldn't be)
* are you checking behind mid-strength hands with showdown value?(should be)
I really really need to start reviewing hands after each seassions instead of just looking at the mess of stats which i don't understand after a month and wondering why i'm down or being smug beacuse i'm up...
I steal from SB tons because I sit to the right of total nits that will fold to a minraise
so I open SB ATC against opponents with less than 20% vpips
I think you can raise AQo UTG, as long as you don't call a 3b OOP
it's probably EV+ or at worst 0 EV
you generally want to play your 0 EV hands because you will get more action from more observant opponents (or at least from the HUDbots who will see 16/13 and think you're full of shit any time you raise)
but 22-66 are losers from the EP, so just openfold them unless you hold 66 and someone limped already
or you hold 55 and both of the people in front of you limped
etc.
you want to gradually relax your requirements as you get better position
I feel KQs is not good enough UTG, but I'll raise it up on occasion from UTG+2
Sorry I mean no disrespect, but this made me laugh. You were already on the nitty side and after the lessons you became even more of a nit?! If I compare that with what my friends tell me - well I just listen to this one friend who is pretty good at poker, he tells me "preflop I like your game [I range from 24/18 to 30/20 depending on my mood] but postflop you're way too nitty, you give up too quickly, you bluf almost never - if we played heads up I'd walk right over you."Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin Value
(heh and I just got an SMS from this guy as I'm typing, he's in the final 100 of the Belgian Poker Championship, prizepool €1.2million - I need to start learning how to do tourneys from him too I think lol)
EDIT: anyway what I meant to say before I got distracted was, it wouldn't be a bad idea to try to double your current stats (to ~20/16) to force yourself to play some postflop poker.
he's probably talking about full ring, not 6m since that's what pig_vomit plays