lets exhaust a hand...

i want to run this from several different angles and see how our action changes...assume microstakes <25NL.

HH 1..villain (CO) is 34/6/.1 thru a decent sample of 100+ hands..
we are dealt QQ on btn. BB has been a little maniacal, so we kind of expect a 3bet, but want to charge him to do so. we would like to isolate CO and valuetown him. 100 bb effective stacks.

villain limps from CO. we raise to 6X (which has been still getting called by CO). BB folds. CO calls.

flop is Ah 7h 6s. we dont have a heart and pot is about 13bb's. CO checks. we fire 9 bb's. CO calls.

turn is 4d. pot is now 32bb's. CO checks. we fire again to 20 bb's and plan to check behind almost any river. CO calls.

river is 8d. pot is 72 bb's. CO donks 30 bb's.

question one: was our lead on flop correct? why or why not?

question two: was our turn lead correct?

question three: what do we do now on river? and, what range do we put villain on?

comments on sizing also welcome.

Check flop, as played check turn, as played muck river.

Check flop, bet turn is standard.

Why are you worried about extraction from such a passive villain?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

i want to run this from several different angles and see how our action changes...assume microstakes <25NL.

HH 1..villain (CO) is 34/6/.1 thru a decent sample of 100+ hands..
we are dealt QQ on btn. BB has been a little maniacal, so we kind of expect a 3bet, but want to charge him to do so. we would like to isolate CO and valuetown him. 100 bb effective stacks.

villain limps from CO. we raise to 6X (which has been still getting called by CO). BB folds. CO calls.

flop is Ah 7h 6s. we dont have a heart and pot is about 13bb's. CO checks. we fire 9 bb's. CO calls.

turn is 4d. pot is now 32bb's. CO checks. we fire again to 20 bb's and plan to check behind almost any river. CO calls.

river is 8d. pot is 72 bb's. CO donks 30 bb's.

question one: was our lead on flop correct? why or why not?

question two: was our turn lead correct?

question three: what do we do now on river? and, what range do we put villain on?

comments on sizing also welcome.

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first, from the stats villain is an uber calling station. second, hands like flush and straightdraws that hit draws on this flop are definately in his range along with with hands that currently beat us like A8s. So, betting flop makes sense as he will call with all his draws, and not just the hands that we beat. Additionally, he is unlikely to actually bet at us so if we will likely have control of the pot throughout the hand and be able to check future streets if draws complete. The bet itself offers him about 2:5 to win, just over what he needs to be getting proper pot odds and no where near if he thinks we fire a turn bet.

Bet turn as well. Villain still calls with flush draws, and has straight combinations that paired but didnt complete in his range so we can still bet and expect this to be profitable.

River sucks hard. Only hand in his range that is calling all this way and then leading out are his flush draw hands. Most likely scenario is a two pair or straight that hated to see that 8 for one reason or another. There are so many hands that beat us at this point that are in his range, that i cant see calling to be profitable nor do i see him folding to a reraise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

Why are you worried about extraction from such a passive villain?

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why ARENT we worried about extraction? villain will call with much worse, and we cant put him on an A.

that said, lets change it a bit...

HH2...villain (CO) is 34/6/.1 thru a decent sample of 100+ hands..
we are dealt QQ on btn. BB has been a little maniacal, so we kind of expect a 3bet, but want to charge him to do so. we would like to isolate CO and valuetown him. 100 bb effective stacks.

villain limps from CO. we raise to 6X (which has been still getting called by CO). BB folds. CO calls.

flop is Ah 7h 6s. we dont have a heart and pot is about 13bb's. CO checks. we fire 9 bb's. CO calls.

turn is 4d. pot is now 32bb's. CO checks. we fire again to 20 bb's and plan to check behind almost any river. CO calls.

river is Ad. pot is 72 bb's. CO donks 30 bb's.

now do we call?

Q1: My first reaction was "no" but then I saw ten million draws - flush and straight, and the fact that he's really passive. So yes.
Q2: Yes, flush draw didn't get there, 89 didn't get there. But they'll pay us to see the river.
Q3: Straight, two pair, an 8 sometimes, but not often enough to call

in HH2, he figures to have a PP over 7 and thinks because the ace came on the river he's good
or he has trip aces/straight
we probably have the odds to call now

I suck at understanding hud stats so for the purpose of this i'm ignoring them. If someone could illustrate how my thought process should change based on these stats it would be greatly apreciated.

1) Hell yeah. Villian's check indicates he doesn't have an ace and we can probz push him off whatever garbage he's playing. insta fold to check/raise though.

2) Hell noes. He may be drawing may be slow playing. not worth finding out.

3) Check fold. I don't think their is any value in calling here. I think his bet screams "I've been slow playing you sucka! Now I wants to get paid." I see him with trip 6 or 7 maybe even A probz two pair. I suppose he could have some sort of A but I would have thought he'd be less willing to slowplay it. What could he have that we beat? Not much i'd think. Busted flush that thought "fuck it" when you checked the river?

How'd i do?

Don't be afraid of slow-plays, as long as you make the fold correctly you're still correct to bet before he wakes up with the hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pig_Vomit

I suck at understanding hud stats so for the purpose of this i'm ignoring them. If someone could illustrate how my thought process should change based on these stats it would be greatly apreciated.

1) Hell yeah. Villian's check indicates he doesn't have an ace and we can probz push him off whatever garbage he's playing. insta fold to check/raise though.

2) Hell noes. He may be drawing may be slow playing. not worth finding out.

3) Check fold. I don't think their is any value in calling here. I think his bet screams "I've been slow playing you sucka! Now I wants to get paid." I see him with trip 6 or 7 maybe even A probz two pair. I suppose he could have some sort of A but I would have thought he'd be less willing to slowplay it. What could he have that we beat? Not much i'd think. Busted flush that thought "fuck it" when you checked the river?

How'd i do?

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36 means he is playing too many hands. and, i, by being tighter, have some inherent advantages against him...like kickers. 6 means, in terms of how many hands he limps, he raises fairly rarely. meaning, when he does, its likely a decent hand. (or just run 6% through pokerstove and find its about 99+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo...maybe a bit wider) and, the .1 is his aggression factor. a "1.0" means he bets/raises as often as he calls bets. so, a "0" means he has not bet as of yet. 100 hands is just an "ok" sample, and when referring to AF #'s it's not the whole story. but, what it tells me is...

- he plays loose pf
- when he raises, its pretty strong
- he RARELY, if ever bets post flop. which means, when he does, i should respect it. but, he is more likely to just call along with much worse stuff...like mid and bottom pair hands. if i am oop, he probably gives me a lot of free cards, so i can draw against him quite often.

so, when this guy "comes alive" on the river in hand one, he MAY have called down with a weak ace and decided to bet a strongish hand here like A8/other aces up hand...or it could be the 5 for the rivered straight. being that he doesnt apparently bluff (miniscule AF), he probably has a one-pair hand beat. and, we have to be right between half and one-third of time to call that river bet. i dont like it there.

however, when that second HH shows the A hit the river, there is no realistic straight possibility out there. two pair may have done something earlier, maybe not. the likelihood of him having an A drastically drops off, although he may not have raised it anyway. and, every pp has two pair now, too. there are so many hands we now beat that i feel we are ahead better than half the time, and this warrants a call.

so, i think flop and turn bets are good value here, at these stakes and against this villain. he will likely call with much worse and wont raise/semibluff. sure, he will call down with AX, but he will also call down with pp's, draws, midpair hands. and, he likely wont fold until the river, if at all.

PLUS we have position here. we bet the turn both for value AND for a free showdown. we dont want to bet all 3 streets with QQ here, imo. not into THIS villain. he may never tell us he has an A, especially if its weak. so, we can just check behind.

free card, and free showdown, plays arent used often enough in NL, imo. when in position and against calling stations, i think they are very valuable plays for both value and pot control.

a lot of people will argue that we should check the flop because villains range holds a lot of aces. i agree, but i also think that we miss value AND give him the opportunity to bet anything w/o us knowing where we stand. almost anyone will take a shot at a pot, even if with a minbet, when they see no one else wants it....at low stakes. we want to maintain a little initiative here, so we know we are beat when he raises us. and, we only take this approach because, as a station, he will call with a lot of worse hands, too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pig_Vomit

1) Hell yeah. Villian's check indicates he doesn't have an ace and we can probz push him off whatever garbage he's playing. insta fold to check/raise though.

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ACK NOES! When we fire a bet at the pot we want one of two things. Either better hands to fold or worse hands to call. This way the opponent is making a mistake by calling or folding to our bet and we gain in the long run regardless of the turn and river cards. Additionally, we also want flush/straight draws to call our bets! They are behind at the moment and so long as we give insufficient pot odds we profit here too. To put it another way, if we are betting to push him off hands then we are making a mistake because then only his better hands call us and we make no further value from his crappy hands, and since hes a calling station we should be able to make lots of monies off his crappy hands.


To the question, this play usually comes from people with trips that just fulled up thinking you have an ace, people that missed their draws, and people that just got their flopped two pair counterfeited. Although, his af of .1 makes me nervous...i probably time out and call at the last second to be shown 6s full.

He could be a calling station or he could have hit two pair or trips.

Quote:

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ACK NOES! When we fire a bet at the pot we want one of two things. Either better hands to fold or worse hands to call. This way the opponent is making a mistake by calling or folding to our bet and we gain in the long run regardless of the turn and river cards. Additionally, we also want flush/straight draws to call our bets! They are behind at the moment and so long as we give insufficient pot odds we profit here too. To put it another way, if we are betting to push him off hands then we are making a mistake because then only his better hands call us and we make no further value from his crappy hands, and since hes a calling station we should be able to make lots of monies off his crappy hands.

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I never realised this but now that I hear it, it makes sense. Isn't it still better to take down the pot now though because our hand can't stand much turn or river action?

Thanks Chopper for your your explanation of the hud stats they help ALOT.

np, _Vomit.

now, lets switch up the VILLAIN here...

now, we have the LAG HU. to repeat...

HH3...villain (BB) is 45/25/2.2 thru a decent sample of 100+ hands..
we are dealt QQ on btn. BB has been a little maniacal, so we kind of expect a 3bet (we've seen him 3bet 66 oop), but want to charge him to do so. we would like to isolate BB and possibly stack him. 100 bb effective stacks.

someone (no reads this time) limps from CO. we raise to 6X (which has been getting most hands HU or 3way). BB calls. CO folds.

flop is Ah 7h 6s. we dont have a heart and pot is about 13bb's. BB checks. CO checks. we fire 9 bb's. BB calls. CO folds.

Q1: do you change your flop bet's size because he is LAGgy?
Q2: what is YOUR plan for the rest of the hand....and why?
Q3: how did YOUR plan change with a different villain?
Q4: how would YOUR plan change if BOTH villains called?
Q5: are you still looking to felt your hand if villain gets pushy?

again, tho, this is under 25NL....dont get too analytical with ranges/partial outs/crazy calcs. just keep it abc since thats what works best down here.....and this is the whole point of this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

np, _Vomit.

now, lets switch up the VILLAIN here...

now, we have the LAG HU. to repeat...

HH3...villain (BB) is 45/25/2.2 thru a decent sample of 100+ hands..
we are dealt QQ on btn. BB has been a little maniacal, so we kind of expect a 3bet (we've seen him 3bet 66 oop), but want to charge him to do so. we would like to isolate BB and possibly stack him. 100 bb effective stacks.

someone (no reads this time) limps from CO. we raise to 6X (which has been getting most hands HU or 3way). BB calls. CO folds.

flop is Ah 7h 6s. we dont have a heart and pot is about 13bb's. BB checks. CO checks. we fire 9 bb's. BB calls. CO folds.

Q1: do you change your flop bet's size because he is LAGgy?
Q2: what is YOUR plan for the rest of the hand....and why?
Q3: how did YOUR plan change with a different villain?
Q4: how would YOUR plan change if BOTH villains called?
Q5: are you still looking to felt your hand if villain gets pushy?

again, tho, this is under 25NL....dont get too analytical with ranges/partial outs/crazy calcs. just keep it abc since thats what works best down here.....and this is the whole point of this thread.

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I'm not that good but I'll jump in here...

A1: No, I keep flop bet the same, because I am betting that on most flops, 2/3 pot continuation style bet, keeps them guessing. The A is a scare though, most might check behind, I am looking for information. His call makes me put a potential A in his range, also a pair. He could also just be hanging on too...
A2: On the turn, if another scare card like a K shows, I'm checking it down. If the turn doesn't connect, I'm firing again if he checks. If he bets out a low bet, I'm curious, probably flat call. If he leads out big, I'm out.
A3: My plan didn't really exist for the first part, I was reading everyone elses... but with a calling station instead of a LAG player, I think I'm dragging him along to the end... the LAG player I'm looking to define his range more clearly to know where i stand.
A4: If both call, I'm in trouble. Chances are one of them hit the A and I think I'm out.
A5: If villian shoves, I'm out. He hit the A and possibly two-paired or set, all within his range.