Thoughts on beating micros #5

Back in the thought 3 thread, Fnord made a reply about one reason value betting is so useful at micro stakes:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Because they don't bluff raise you often enough and when they do, they will make bet sizing mistakes.

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I agree completely, although I hadn't considered it as a reason for value betting. He's spot on though.

I think one leak a lot of micro stakes players have is "he's bluffing" syndrome. We convince ourselves that villain is just bluffing. That he's "playing back", that "he thinks that flop didnt hit our range", or that "he's just raising a draw and if I 3-bet he'll fold", or whatever. The fact is, usually they have it. People dont bluff anywhere near as much as we'd like to think. Previously when I've gone through looking for leaks, this "he's bluffing" syndrome has often been my biggest one. I know I'm going off my game when I find I start falling into this trap again.

I'd recommend you literally go through and check this for yourself. I just grab a pen and paper, and count them. Another interesting thing to do is to jot down the amount of money you put into the pot in each one beyond the point at which you should have just folded. I think you'll be surprised at the results. This REALLY adds up.

Thats a thought from me based on Fnords comment, but if you think deeper about the ramifications of what he's saying, you'll realise there are a few adjustments to your game you probably should be making. See if you can come up with any.


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Yeah I think that a lot of new people seriously over-estimate their opponent's ranges in the sense that they over-weight the bluffs portion.

Would you put vill playing mediocre made hands aggressively in the same category as bluffs (i.e. 2nd & 3rd pair) Reason I asked, is that one of my "ah hah's" in exorcising my weak tightiness has been the significant amount of value I was losing by not recognizing the degree folks at $10NL were willing to play these weak holdings.

Oh... and the go back and add up how much you sh!t yourself idea is outstanding. I started doing that about 6 months ago... reviewing all big pot losses and tracking how much I would have saved had I, in most cases, stopped sooner. It's pretty enlightening... added up to as much as > 1bb/100 for a while there.... :shock:

Generally folks will fold their weak holdings, or donk bet them, but they dont raise them that much.

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

Generally folks will fold their weak holdings, or donk bet them, but they dont raise them that much.

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@ 2/5/10NL??!?

Negative. People are raising TPNo kicker. People are raising second pair cuz "you must be bluffing." That's why we learn pot control, not how to be fold stations.

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Originally Posted by wellrounded08

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

Generally folks will fold their weak holdings, or donk bet them, but they dont raise them that much.

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@ 2/5/10NL??!?

Negative. People are raising TPNo kicker. People are raising second pair cuz "you must be bluffing." That's why we learn pot control, not how to be fold stations.

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I think the bolded qualifier is important here. Ppl really aren't bluffing as much as we'd sometimes like to think (especially in pots where hero has been aggressive).

Basically, what Spoon said.

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Originally Posted by wellrounded08

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

Generally folks will fold their weak holdings, or donk bet them, but they dont raise them that much.

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@ 2/5/10NL??!?

Negative. People are raising TPNo kicker. People are raising second pair cuz "you must be bluffing." That's why we learn pot control, not how to be fold stations.

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I think your spending too much time trying to convince all of us that have played the micros that they aren't what we thought. Why do you see a problem with someone raising TPNK? This is a gold mine. Having people call with crap, not fold and basically play horrible does not make them winners.

This is borderline related but at 25 and 50nl I have started 3 betting alot of donk bets rather than folding or floating and I am picking up alot of pots right there when before I would fold most of my air hands before.

So in short I think alot of villians donk bet bluff into raised pots or donk bet weak enough ranges that they will fold to a raise and so raising is often good until you get a read that says otherwise.

BTW, this is basically just anecdotal evidence backing me up, if it is or is not correct in theory I'd like to know more/why etc

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Originally Posted by yourfather

This is borderline related but at 25 and 50nl I have started 3 betting alot of donk bets rather than folding or floating and I am picking up alot of pots right there when before I would fold most of my air hands before.

So in short I think alot of villians donk bet bluff into raised pots or donk bet weak enough ranges that they will fold to a raise and so raising is often good until you get a read that says otherwise.

BTW, this is basically just anecdotal evidence backing me up, if it is or is not correct in theory I'd like to know more/why etc

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Sorry to be nitpicky, but u aren't 3-betting their donk, you are raising it. I've seen a few ppl make this error recently (altho it's really just semantics since most ppl know what u mean). Other than that i'm with u, i will raise a weak donk lead as the PFR 100% of the time. But raising a weak donk lead is different to say, c-betting, firing again on the turn and being c/r'ed tho, at which point it's likely that only the very top of ur range is good, sans a good read anyways. One shows a lot of strength, regardless of how much we want to believe we're just being played back at.

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Originally Posted by yourfather

This is borderline related but at 25 and 50nl I have started 3 betting alot of donk bets rather than folding or floating and I am picking up alot of pots right there when before I would fold most of my air hands before.

So in short I think alot of villians donk bet bluff into raised pots or donk bet weak enough ranges that they will fold to a raise and so raising is often good until you get a read that says otherwise.

BTW, this is basically just anecdotal evidence backing me up, if it is or is not correct in theory I'd like to know more/why etc

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I understand what you saying, I just find it weird that when I donk lead it's generally with incredible strength. Such as, I call a raise with a small-mid pp in the blinds and catch my set. Depending on the board and opponent, I generally end up donk leading. I may be totally off, but I believe donk leads are less transparent than c/r's. As you said, alot of players will raise up my donk lead, then depending on the board I can either call and get it in on the turn or b/3b the flop and get it in.

I obviously donk lead against some opponents as a bluff as well if I think they missed the majority of their ranges and are too straight-forward to fight back with a bluff raise on the flop.

I used to just generally fold/occasionally float my air when facing these donkbets but my raises have been folding out prob 80% of them.

Usually these donk bets are bout 1/2 psb and then fold, some villains bet pot as standard though. Just taking an extra few seconds to think about if the flop really hit their range and if their donk lead makes any sense convinced me to start raising them when it seemed fishy which is usually.

I mostly donk lead myself with strength for value/protection and almost never donk bluff except occasionally in heads up or on certain flops against straightforward nits who fold all their air.

And noted about the 3-bet wording, I usually think of a raise as a 3-bet but it is not always a 3 bet you are correct.

Donkbets are FOS about 80-90% of the time, but I dunno when anyone talked about donking, this is about raising.

Some villains will play mediocre hands as if they're bluffs, thats why we take notes. Often a min-raise on the flop means "I have TPNK but I wont fold so I really hope you will". Thats not bluffing though, you're going to need to show down a better hand than him.

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Originally Posted by wellrounded08

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

Generally folks will fold their weak holdings, or donk bet them, but they dont raise them that much.

---

@ 2/5/10NL??!?

Negative. People are raising TPNo kicker. People are raising second pair cuz "you must be bluffing." That's why we learn pot control, not how to be fold stations.

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nah, ive actually played a bit of 2 and 5 nl and ops are woefully bad at both value raising and bluff raising.

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Originally Posted by jyms

I think your spending too much time trying to convince all of us that have played the micros that they aren't what we thought. Why do you see a problem with someone raising TPNK? This is a gold mine. Having people call with crap, not fold and basically play horrible does not make them winners.

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My bad. I wasn't trying to say this was a BAD thing. I was mearly trying to address a point. Sometimes villains will raise with what they think is the better hand. This isn't a bluff, they are trying to (whether they realize it or not) get value out of these hands. I couldn't help but notice sar mention the same thing.

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Vill playing mediocre hands aggressively

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However; if it's not common enough to discuss, that's cool I'm not trying to argue with those who know better, that's -EV![/quote]

As I said, they dont raise them much. Theres no absolutes here, people do dumb things sometimes, especially at the micros. That said, bluff 3-bet raising on the flop is almost always wrong. Often enough that the few times you soul read (i.e., get lucky) wont make up for the times you're wrong.

If villain is raising their mediocre holdings, then you still need better than a mediocre holding to beat them, since yet again, they wont fold. Raising mediocre holdings isnt bluffing, its being retarded, but you still need to adjust to it.

Think about what their ranges is, play v's that range, don't expect them to fold much. Try to have some reads before getting into big pot situations with medium strength hands when villain is being aggressive.

I know that sometimes I'm being bluffed but I still don't want to call because my hand is so poor. At times there are players that are going all-in nearly once an orbit. I can't believe they are having that good of cards but if I don't have the cards I don't call.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

Back in the thought 3 thread, Fnord made a reply about one reason value betting is so useful at micro stakes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fnord

Because they don't bluff raise you often enough and when they do, they will make bet sizing mistakes.

---

I agree completely, although I hadn't considered it as a reason for value betting. He's spot on though.

I think one leak a lot of micro stakes players have is "he's bluffing" syndrome. We convince ourselves that villain is just bluffing. That he's "playing back", that "he thinks that flop didnt hit our range", or that "he's just raising a draw and if I 3-bet he'll fold", or whatever. The fact is, usually they have it. People dont bluff anywhere near as much as we'd like to think. Previously when I've gone through looking for leaks, this "he's bluffing" syndrome has often been my biggest one. I know I'm going off my game when I find I start falling into this trap again.

I'd recommend you literally go through and check this for yourself. I just grab a pen and paper, and count them. Another interesting thing to do is to jot down the amount of money you put into the pot in each one beyond the point at which you should have just folded. I think you'll be surprised at the results. This REALLY adds up.

Thats a thought from me based on Fnords comment, but if you think deeper about the ramifications of what he's saying, you'll realise there are a few adjustments to your game you probably should be making. See if you can come up with any.


Previous posts:
1 - http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...-1-t75533.html
2 - http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...-2-t75565.html
3 - http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...-3-t75632.html
4 - http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...-4-t75671.html

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I have caught myself often in this 'Show Me' mode. Now sometimes i catch a string where the guy was bluffing and I take the pot down but more often than not I am slammed by a big pair or something that clobbers me, thinking villian is bluffing.

I'm having a hard time though right now with telling if I am ahead or not... even when ahead and know it I seem to be getting burned... I am at work so I don't have the history, but last night is a good example...

playing .02/.05 on Stars, on the button I am dealth TT. I see one limp ahead, raise to 5xBB, SB/BB both fold, get called by UTG limper. Now I put him on a pair, possibly suited Ace to call, so i think his range is ATs+, any pair, KQ possibly. I believe he is thinking I'm stealing, so he is calling. Flop comes 7 4 and I think 3 rainbow. He checks it, I bet 1/2 pot and he pauses then calls. So... here I'm a little lost. Turn comes as a 9 and we now have two hearts on the board... so I figure the flush draw is a possibility now...

I bet 1/2 pot and he insta-calls. What? What could he have... was he slow playing a big pair? I grow very hesitant at that point... river comes and is a Jack of clubs. So no flush... He bets pot. What? Was he slow playing something big? I think he is trying to shove me off it and I call... of course... he was sitting on a A-J of diamonds... making his jacks good.

Sorry for the long post that might not apply too much, but I'm trying to learn from these posts and I think they are valuable... my point was that 'show me' is not the attitude to have. When you are fairly sure you are beat, you have to get out of the hand. I struggle with this and have lost at least 4 buy ins this week to it.

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Originally Posted by Monty3038

I have caught myself often in this 'Show Me' mode. Now sometimes i catch a string where the guy was bluffing and I take the pot down but more often than not I am slammed by a big pair or something that clobbers me, thinking villian is bluffing.

I'm having a hard time though right now with telling if I am ahead or not... even when ahead and know it I seem to be getting burned... I am at work so I don't have the history, but last night is a good example...

playing .02/.05 on Stars, on the button I am dealth TT. I see one limp ahead, raise to 5xBB, SB/BB both fold, get called by UTG limper. Now I put him on a pair, possibly suited Ace to call, so i think his range is ATs+, any pair, KQ possibly. I believe he is thinking I'm stealing, so he is calling. Flop comes 7 4 and I think 3 rainbow. He checks it, I bet 1/2 pot and he pauses then calls. So... here I'm a little lost. Turn comes as a 9 and we now have two hearts on the board... so I figure the flush draw is a possibility now...

I bet 1/2 pot and he insta-calls. What? What could he have... was he slow playing a big pair? I grow very hesitant at that point... river comes and is a Jack of clubs. So no flush... He bets pot. What? Was he slow playing something big? I think he is trying to shove me off it and I call... of course... he was sitting on a A-J of diamonds... making his jacks good.

Sorry for the long post that might not apply too much, but I'm trying to learn from these posts and I think they are valuable... my point was that 'show me' is not the attitude to have. When you are fairly sure you are beat, you have to get out of the hand. I struggle with this and have lost at least 4 buy ins this week to it.

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I'm way rusty so take it for what it worth, but when we have an over pair on this flop we have to be ahead of villian's range here, don't we? I probably bet pot on this flop against what is most likely a passive player....give him bad odds to call with his overs or take down the pot against his missed set.

Sorry for going off OP's topic...but in this case if we only make small bets, aren't we asking for trouble?

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Originally Posted by Trashcona

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monty3038

I have caught myself often in this 'Show Me' mode. Now sometimes i catch a string where the guy was bluffing and I take the pot down but more often than not I am slammed by a big pair or something that clobbers me, thinking villian is bluffing.

I'm having a hard time though right now with telling if I am ahead or not... even when ahead and know it I seem to be getting burned... I am at work so I don't have the history, but last night is a good example...

playing .02/.05 on Stars, on the button I am dealth TT. I see one limp ahead, raise to 5xBB, SB/BB both fold, get called by UTG limper. Now I put him on a pair, possibly suited Ace to call, so i think his range is ATs+, any pair, KQ possibly. I believe he is thinking I'm stealing, so he is calling. Flop comes 7 4 and I think 3 rainbow. He checks it, I bet 1/2 pot and he pauses then calls. So... here I'm a little lost. Turn comes as a 9 and we now have two hearts on the board... so I figure the flush draw is a possibility now...

I bet 1/2 pot and he insta-calls. What? What could he have... was he slow playing a big pair? I grow very hesitant at that point... river comes and is a Jack of clubs. So no flush... He bets pot. What? Was he slow playing something big? I think he is trying to shove me off it and I call... of course... he was sitting on a A-J of diamonds... making his jacks good.

Sorry for the long post that might not apply too much, but I'm trying to learn from these posts and I think they are valuable... my point was that 'show me' is not the attitude to have. When you are fairly sure you are beat, you have to get out of the hand. I struggle with this and have lost at least 4 buy ins this week to it.

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I'm way rusty so take it for what it worth, but when we have an over pair on this flop we have to be ahead of villian's range here, don't we? I probably bet pot on this flop against what is most likely a passive player....give him bad odds to call with his overs or take down the pot against his missed set.

Sorry for going off OP's topic...but in this case if we only make small bets, aren't we asking for trouble?

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(If you guys want me to seperate this out to another thread... I will.. let me know)

But if we are looking to extract value we aren't looking to take the pot down now, we are looking to get it in while we are good, which I was doing... right? Anyone? Bueller?

Bumped because I think this is post is a must read to anyone who hasn't browsed Ben's operation or the digest.

I find myself getting stuck in this thought pattern alot, and it causes me to make spewy plays. It's something I'm working on though and I feel has improved - though not as much as I'd like. Returning to this post regularly should help keep me in line.

I had one at the weekend where I got minraised on the flop by someone who I'd been walking all over for nearly an hour. 'He's just playing back!' *shove* villain showed a set to my missed overs. Spewwwww.

What makes it worse is that I KNOW when you've been walking all over someone for several pots and they raise you it means 99% of the time they've just hit something sweet, but I shoved anyway. Quality bump m2m.

Yeah, it seems like I have to come back to this idea every few days. I'll be good and fold when I'm beat, but little by little I start to think they're bluffing again.

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Originally Posted by Lucothefish

I had one at the weekend where I got minraised on the flop by someone who I'd been walking all over for nearly an hour. 'He's just playing back!' *shove* villain showed a set to my missed overs. Spewwwww.

What makes it worse is that I KNOW when you've been walking all over someone for several pots and they raise you it means 99% of the time they've just hit something sweet, but I shoved anyway. Quality bump m2m.

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Minbets are used a lot by microstakes players. I rarely know what they mean. I've seen them used as value bets and bluffs. I've seen them used with HUGE hands to induce a raise (as Luco described). They rarely mean the same thing by two different villains...but it is very interested to see them used. I've had villains bet $.10 into a $1.50 pot. I would raise and he would RERAISE me. I was completely thrown off. Of course I folded the hand, but the minbet just fucks with me.

Min 3bets pre still tilt me to no end.

And the range is basically KK+.

Makes set mining profitable though :D