$25NL Find a fold

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09-06-2008, 09:42 PM
sarbox68

$25NL Find a fold

Vil is 27/17/3.8 over 94 hands. I think I should have found a fold on the Turn, but by the time I make the call, I feel committed. I just don't see much that bets the River like that that I'm ahead of, except maybe a pocket underpair. Oh... and I called v. raised in an attempt to see the SD as cheap as possible... that worked out great! :roll: Feedback appreciated.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($47.85)
MP ($7.70)
Button ($38.85)
Hero (SB) ($15)
BB ($13.25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
UTG raises $0.85, 1 fold, Button calls $0.85, Hero calls $0.75, 1 fold

Flop: ($2.80) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $1.75, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.75

Turn: ($6.30) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50

River: ($13.30) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $13.30, Hero calls $8.90 (All-In)

Total pot: $31.10
09-06-2008, 09:53 PM
Jack Sawyer

i hate your position throughout the hand

iow, calling pf is a bad idea
09-06-2008, 10:02 PM
swiggidy

I don't like the call pre because he's so agro. I fold the turn.

You also might want to find a new table.
09-06-2008, 10:14 PM
sarbox68

I thought of 3-betting pre- ('cause of wide raising range) might be better calling...fold to a 4-bet, and bet/fold the flop. However, unless he folds to my 3b, I'd be in the same damn position sitting on TPGK on the flop with a bloated pot.

I guess folding pre- is really my best option... or calling with the plan to only proceed with two pair+ or a kick-@zz draw. :shock:
09-06-2008, 10:38 PM
swiggidy

Most villains won't double barrel a hand that doesn't beat you, so by the turn I would be confident in my hand. But that's why I avoid the sane aggressive players.

And, after thinking about this, there's nothing wrong with the call pre. I don't 3bet because he's agro and I don't play this well OOP in bloated pots
09-07-2008, 05:25 AM
Pig_Vomit

Pre flop I fold. Why so passive after the flop? I would have bet the flop or cr and folded to any reraise.
09-07-2008, 05:47 AM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

iow, calling pf is a bad idea

WTF?!?!?!?!?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pig_Vomit

Pre flop I fold. Why so passive after the flop? I would have bet the flop or cr and folded to any reraise.

WTF?!?!?!?!?!
09-07-2008, 07:10 AM
Pig_Vomit

Quote:

WTF?!?!?!?!?!

Y wtf? Shitty position and shitty hand faceing aggresion. Am i missing something? I'm probably missing something. If not folding i'd at least want to take the initiative and play back at the villian but then again i don't really understand pot control.
09-07-2008, 07:32 AM

So a check/raise on the flop is not standard?
09-07-2008, 08:06 AM
swiggidy

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

So a check/raise on the flop is not standard?

It kills the range we're beating and gets raised by the range we're losing to.

Sar, I had a very similar hand and talked it over with a couple people. The 100NL people said nh, but I KNEW I was beat on the turn, called down anyway.
09-07-2008, 09:13 AM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pig_Vomit

shitty hand

Yeah, it's only a top 5% hand with good pair, nut straight and 2nd nut flush value. Total worthless crap. I like 4 cards that all work together...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pig_Vomit

If not folding i'd at least want to take the initiative and play back at the villian but then again i don't really understand pot control.

Re-read that like 5 times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

The 100NL people said nh, but I KNEW I was beat on the turn, called down anyway.

So then fold the turn. Doesn't make the pre-flop and flop lines bad.
09-07-2008, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

So a check/raise on the flop is not standard?

It kills the range we're beating and gets raised by the range we're losing to.

Sar, I had a very similar hand and talked it over with a couple people. The 100NL people said nh, but I KNEW I was beat on the turn, called down anyway.

So... you'd rather call turn and river instead of folding the flop when you're behind? I think you're overestimating what people will call with here. AK a distinct possibility that wants to keep drawing to that gutshot/other shitty plays.

I mean the guy's sitting on 60BB
there should be no river
09-07-2008, 12:06 PM
sarbox68

Leading the turn w/ a shove was another option when the 2nd J hit as a semi-bluff. But it's not a given that vil would double-barrel the turn, and if it had gone check/check, I'd have felt pretty comfortable calling off a River bet.

I believe the go/no go is calling the turn, as it commits me, and obv my str8 & flush draws are now dead. No way I'm shoving over the Turn bet, so I think the decision is really check/fold or open shove with hope of folding out AQ?
09-07-2008, 05:21 PM
swiggidy

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

So a check/raise on the flop is not standard?

It kills the range we're beating and gets raised by the range we're losing to.

Sar, I had a very similar hand and talked it over with a couple people. The 100NL people said nh, but I KNEW I was beat on the turn, called down anyway.

So... you'd rather call turn and river instead of folding the flop when you're behind? I think you're overestimating what people will call with here. AK a distinct possibility that wants to keep drawing to that gutshot/other shitty plays.

I mean the guy's sitting on 60BB
there should be no river

Dude, the first thing I said was fold turn.

I never said calling pre and calling the flop was bad. Fnord said that.

My story didn't end up being relevant anyway.
09-07-2008, 05:26 PM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Dude, the first thing I said was fold turn.

It's true, you did... he did... I read that...
09-07-2008, 07:41 PM
Robb

Good thread. Not much to add - I'm learning here, too. I think the pre/flop line is fine, with a bet or raise on the turn. But I stack off at 25nl way too often - I'm probably full of crap.
09-07-2008, 08:19 PM
swiggidy

I think the thing to take away is I don't play with such an aggressive player with position on me. The rest of the table would have to be so horrible that he just left me alone.

Not saying he's not beatable, just that it's not worth it right now.
09-08-2008, 03:32 AM
Pig_Vomit

Alright i know i suck so bear with me...

Quote:

Pig_Vomit wrote:
shitty hand

Yeah, it's only a top 5% hand with good pair, nut straight and 2nd nut flush value. Total worthless crap. I like 4 cards that all work together...

My thinking hear is that villian has shown strength from UTG and that hands like AA, KK, AK, AQ, AJ, KJ and even QJ or a pocket pair are a massive part of their range (I suck at ranges and am probably putting them on too narrow a range). So i'm going to either win a small pot or lose a large one. I generaly fold KQ in an already opened pot from anything but the cut off or BB and pay no mind to runner runner outs. Is this incorrect?

Quote:

Pig_Vomit wrote:
If not folding i'd at least want to take the initiative and play back at the villian but then again i don't really understand pot control.

Re-read that like 5 times.

I must be missing something?

Quote:

swiggidy wrote:
iopq wrote:
So a check/raise on the flop is not standard?

It kills the range we're beating and gets raised by the range we're losing to.

I didn't think of that but don't we gain some value by milking an extra bet out of the villian when he misses the flop completly?

Quote:

Leading the turn w/ a shove was another option when the 2nd J hit as a semi-bluff.

Yeah as played I like this idea.
09-08-2008, 07:24 AM
kettleofish

I think a turn shove is worse than c/c'ing both streets. It just looks so bluffy, I'd look u up w/ AQ, which is really the only hand that u are ahead of that might fold.
09-08-2008, 06:06 PM
swiggidy

PV, his range is really strong. But it's still a strong hand with a lot of potential. It's not like we're going to stack off on a Kxx or Qxx flop. I hope you meant CO or BTN (not BB). I don't think folding here is terrible, especially if you're likely to spew post.

Quote:

If not folding i'd at least want to take the initiative and play back at the villian but then again i don't really understand pot control[/.

Does that help at all?

The thing is, when he misses the flop completely he's unlikely to fire another barrel on the turn because it's micro stakes. If he has an underpair he'll check behind turn and possibly call a bet on the river, so there's some value from the range you want to fold out by playing later streets. Turn/River is hardest, and where you can make the most.
09-09-2008, 03:06 AM
Pig_Vomit

thx swiggidy for the explanation (yeah i ment button lol). I am a very weak turn and river player so i never thought of it like that. I'm probs gonna stick to folding KQ in an already raised pot untill my post flop skillz improve. Just wanted to make sure that i'm not makeing a major mistake in doing so.