Retarded Hand. Hand Advice*

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($2.77)
MP ($3.36)
CO ($3.79)
Hero (Button) ($2.89)
SB ($5.74)
BB ($1.42)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
UTG calls $0.02, MP raises to $0.08, CO calls $0.08, Hero calls $0.08, SB calls $0.07, BB calls $0.06, UTG calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.48) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO bets $0.02, Hero raises to $0.50, 4 folds, CO calls $0.48

+/-?

Turn: ($1.48) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $1.40, 1 fold

I'm aware villains line looks much like a set at these stakes... Spewy? At this point, it's pretty well bluff, I'm aware. I feel like I'm repping a set. Really the only hand that beats me that I fold out is AJ. The line I had ready for the rest of the hand was pretty easy: Fold to raise, fold to a river bet, check behind the river.

Anyway, right after the hand, I coppied down the HH. I knew it was worth looking at, and possibly just retarded.

Total pot: $1.48 | Rake: $0.05

best things to do with QJs UTG

1. fold
2. raise
3. open-limp

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AFchung

best things to do with QJs UTG

1. fold
2. raise
3. open-limp

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Reread, the hand history imo.

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Reread, the hand history imo.

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my fault. need to stop drinking

At these stakes I dont see anything wrong with the way you played this.

Without reads, villain could be holding: two hearts, pp, 7x, Jx, Ax, overcards or even some other trash and play this exactly the same way.

Make pot sized raises to make sure he pays you off if he is drawing to a flush and doesnt hit.

I dont think you need to worry too much about the villain having a set. If he has a set, well too bad. Most of the time though he will have some weak hand and you will be making your money.

I wouldnt worry about what you are repping, as at this level the villain wont really be trying to put you on a specific hand. His thought process will be more like - "opp is making pot size raises, he must have something or he is bluffing."

IMO:
This particular case, villain may have been an idiot, and not been tryin to put me on a hand. Although when playing a nity multi-tabling thinking Opp. Much attention must be payed to your line, because even the slightest bluff will be unsuccessful if your line doesn't add up.

Also, if villain doesn't understand putting someone on a hand, he probably doesn't recognize "PSB" he just see's Big bet, not big bet. Which is what makes me think I could have gotten away with a 2/3PSB on the turn. And probably on the flop too.

Hand ranges are quite interesting to me. UTG has a limping hand that can call multiway (low pair?), MP has a raising hand behind limpers (high unpaired?), CO has a calling hand behind a raiser in what is not necessarily a multiway pot (middle pair?, dominating high cards?), SB and BB have hands they would choose to play out of position in a multiway pot. A multiway pot cannot assume that a high pair will be the best hand at showdown, but being out of position is also not great, so they are likely to be playing hands that either hit a flop hard or whiff it completely - pocket pairs and suited connectors.

Basically on the flop, anyone can be holding two hearts, a gut shot, any pair. You have to bet your hand to protect the equity it has, and although the flop is not wet in the ordinary sense anyone can really have hit any part of it. I think your bet size on the flop is exactly right, and folds all around would not be unwelcome. You do end up with an uncomfortable pot size on the turn, but I still don't think you could make your bet any smaller than $0.40 without losing the effect.

CO betting so weakly on the flop I don't see as an attempt to buy the pot - it's too small for that. Rather I think he has two hearts and would rather see the next card for free.

K is a decent scare card for you when he checks. If he'd had two hearts with the Kh one of them I would have assumed he would bet here. I think you're ahead of two random hearts or a low/medium pair up to Jx and I honestly think the majority of his range will fold to any reasonable bet here. The question really is if the bet size is right.

The pot is $1.48 and you have $2.31 behind. Even a bet of $0.50 would leave you with less than a pot sized bet behind on the river, so there is a very real danger of pot commitment here. If you bet $1.40 and have $0.91 behind and he then raises to $2.31 to put you all in, making the pot $5.19 with $0.91 to call - you have to call. He could make that raise with a flush draw that you're ahead of and you'd only have to win 15% of the time for the call to be profitable. Even if you are guaranteed to lose 4 times out of 5 you still have to make the call if raised. Given that bet size - if a heart comes on the river - should you call or fold? I still think you have to call. At these stakes.. perhaps not, but if there's any chance of him bluffing in that type of situation with less you basically have to call. Could he have played a TT hand that way? Certainly.

The bet you made is basically pot committing - the question is would any bet size accomplish the same goal but still allow you to be correct in folding if the indications that you are beaten are strong enough.

I think you should get your folds from a $1 bet, but I don't think you can go below $1 on the turn (as played). If shoved on (or called turn and shoved river) you have to call $1.31 into a pot of $4.39. This would be approaching a place where you could consider folding to aggression if you are pretty certain this villain never bluffs - but only on the river and only if a heart comes.

If you'd bet the flop $0.40 (and only been called by CO) I don't think that greatly changes your or his ranges. The pot is $1.28, you have $2.51 behind. In this situation you could bet $0.80 on the turn and if shoved on (or called and shoved on on river with a heart) you would need to call $1.71 into a pot of $3.79. This is foldable, and I would agree that if it happened this way it is likely that when it happens you are likely enough to be second best that folding might be correct. At the same time you should get folds on the flop and turn from almost exactly the same parts of the opponent range.

So the value you'd lose is $0.20 every time you win by folding him out on the turn and the value you gain is $1.71 every time you lose by folding to aggression. So, looking at CO's range as a whole (let's take the range having arrived on the flop and made the $0.02 bet) - if 11% or less of his range is the kind that will play aggressively and fold you out - you should bet to $0.50 on the flop and just accept you are pot committed. If more than 11% of his range is the kind that will play aggressively and fold you out you should bet $0.40 on the flop and get out when he plays aggressively.

In the above paragraph I'm only playing to win by folding either way without considering showdown value against ranges.

what makes you think the flop minbet is a set?

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Originally Posted by wellrounded08

IMO:
This particular case, villain may have been an idiot, and not been tryin to put me on a hand. Although when playing a nity multi-tabling thinking Opp. Much attention must be payed to your line, because even the slightest bluff will be unsuccessful if your line doesn't add up.
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At 2nl, unless you have a real read on the villan, I think you are totally overthinking this.

Im only playing 2nl at the moment, but it doesnt make sense to think too deaply about what the villain is doing if you dont have a read on them. This is becuase your average micro donk's play is just so random.

If you have tpgk, and have a board like this, and the villain is so passive, just bet for value and dont worry too much about what the villain could be holding. You will be ahead a high enough percentage of the time for this to earn you money at these stakes.

Ano observation that I have made is that a lot of passive players will call PSB's on flop and fold to a decent turn bet. A lot of the time if you are the preflop raiser, it seems to work pretty well to Cbet flop, and fire the second barrel on the turn no matter what you have.

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Originally Posted by Biglines

At 2nl, unless you have a real read on the villan, I think you are totally overthinking this.

>That's what I said. "If I"m playing a nit" A real nit-botlike-multitabler.

Im only playing 2nl at the moment, but it doesnt make sense to think too deaply about what the villain is doing if you dont have a read on them. This is becuase your average micro donk's play is just so random.

>To an extent I agree, But I still think you should ALWAYS be trying to put villain on a range. Not a specific hand, a Range.

If you have tpgk, and have a board like this, and the villain is so passive, just bet for value and dont worry too much about what the villain could be holding. You will be ahead a high enough percentage of the time for this to earn you money at these stakes.

>That's what I did. My focus was directed more toward the Amount of the Flop bet. I should've made that more clear.

Ano observation that I have made is that a lot of passive players will call PSB's on flop and fold to a decent turn bet. A lot of the time if you are the preflop raiser, it seems to work pretty well to Cbet flop, and fire the second barrel on the turn no matter what you have.

>Not trying to say it in a dick way, but that has nothing to do with my position in this hand, I wasn't the preflop aggressor. This wasn't a "c-bet" nor was it a bluff on the flop. I really mean it when I say I'm not trying to be a dick, I know I'm just learning too, so I don't mind hearing from peers at the same level, but I will always pick apart an argument that I feel I'm in the right on. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

what makes you think the flop minbet is a set?

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It's actually the entirety of his pre-turn line that makes me think this. Cold Call pre-(has set hunting odds), then the min-bet call PSB(a hefty pot at that.). It's a fairly common line around these stakes. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't sure of anything, I had to throw it in the range however, since it is such a common line around here. Thats all. People who do this tend to lead the turn however(not always obviously) Either way, I wasn't being paranoid, I can't base all my decisions on nut-phobia I'm aware.


Erpel, that hits on what my thinking was after reviewing the hand. I really just could have gotten away with smaller bets. I'm just going to have to keep playing hands, keep getting more experience in.