feeling stupid after this hand

BB is a TAG regular (15/10/5) with a much wider raising range out of the blinds than in, who knows me well too and we respect each other's bets/raises (his very high agg factor comes from an almost pure bet/raise or fold strategy). Button is an odd loose preflop/fit-or-fold on the flop type player who was running nearly 50/5/0.5, but was folding most flops. I had no read on MP1 and had just started playing with him.

First, I know it's a little loose pre (and loose sb play is a leak for me), but I thought having good reads on 2 opps would help my post flop play enough to compensate for terrible position. After the fact, this really just would have allowed me to win more small pots and fewer big ones with who my opponents were. Is this too loose pre?

Second, after getting an amazing draw on the flop I wanted to get as much in the pot as possible here with my equity edge.

Finally, on the turn, I was fairly certain the bb would bet/raise and we might push out the button w/ his likely tp, fd, oesd. Given how bb was going to play, I didn't have enough equity (even with the 2 extra outs) to get into a raising war w/ him HU and preferred the c/c line keeping in the button. In retrospect, driving out the button who might have a better fd or split my oesd pot if it came wasn't a bad move after all and likely worth the 2 bets. As played I also may as well have turned my hand face up for the bb. Thoughts?

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif.
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, MP1 folds, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, Button calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Button calls, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Button calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 12 BB

PF is fine if you do have a read on BB as not raising much in that spot, as you state.
i would c/r the flop considering your read that BB is aggro postflop, trying to kick no one out and trapping them in for 2 bets. Leading just ensures that BB will raise if he wants to play, kicking out players, whereas c/raising would go:
U check, BB bets, all call, you raise!
once you lead the flop and 3bet it, u should def bet the turn too.
you have about 31% equity, but as you say, you may clean outs by folding button. You also gain folding equity by semibluff leading, which may give you an extra edge.
This could allow for a desperate bluff on river if heads up with the board pairing after so much strength shown.
As played, you have 0% folding equity and are just playing to hit or fold

My 2 cents,

I think betting the turn conceals your hand for a good price.

You have just under 1/3 equity and there are 2 other players both of whom are unlikely to fold. So while you cannot win the pot, bets going in on the turn are only narrowly -EV for you.

In my opinion this is more than compensated for by those times the added deception earns you a larger river payoff when you hit.

If you lead the turn you can have a very small chance of picking up the pot on the river if everyone was on a draw

or even on the turn since you've shown a lot of strength
you have enough equity to play it pretty much any way because BB could actually fold

if you don't have enough fold equity then check/call
I don't think betting necessarily conceals your hand because a lot of people bet strong draws anyway

I don't think you played this hand badly, but I would suggest a different tack on the turn that no-one has put forward yet.

Preflop: We're getting 7:1 on a call with two suited cards. Easy call.

Flop: Monster draw. Ram and jam.

Turn: Once BB raises the flop and calls our 3bet, it's very unlikely he is going to fold the turn if we lead out. The thought process that leading out and getting BB to raise so Btn will fold a FD or 7x must be based on a different game because Btn never folds these hands in any LHE game I've ever been in.

However, our draw has now become so big (9 outs to flush, 6 to straight, and 5 to two pair or trips - almost half the deck), that when BB bets and Btn calls I would seriously consider a c/r for value as we definitely have more than 1/3 share of the equity in this pot.

It might also gain us some fold equity (either on the turn or if we bet the river again UI) because a flop 3bet and turn c/r is an extremely strong move that even the boys at 0.5/1 will notice. The final plus is that it disguises our hand making it much more likely we will get crying calls on the river if we do hit.

Alternatively, by just calling along on the turn we then face a situation where we have to lead if we hit the river because we won't know if the card that made our hand will scare everyone else out of betting.

In essence then, the turn c/r actually improves our implied odds while at the same time building the pot when we have an equity advantage and possibly gaining us some valuable FE in a huge pot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrivingDog

I don't think you played this hand badly, but I would suggest a different tack on the turn that no-one has put forward yet.

Preflop: We're getting 7:1 on a call with two suited cards. Easy call.

Flop: Monster draw. Ram and jam.

Turn: Once BB raises the flop and calls our 3bet, it's very unlikely he is going to fold the turn if we lead out. The thought process that leading out and getting BB to raise so Btn will fold a FD or 7x must be based on a different game because Btn never folds these hands in any LHE game I've ever been in.

However, our draw has now become so big (9 outs to flush, 6 to straight, and 5 to two pair or trips - almost half the deck), that when BB bets and Btn calls I would seriously consider a c/r for value as we definitely have more than 1/3 share of the equity in this pot.

It might also gain us some fold equity (either on the turn or if we bet the river again UI) because a flop 3bet and turn c/r is an extremely strong move that even the boys at 0.5/1 will notice. The final plus is that it disguises our hand making it much more likely we will get crying calls on the river if we do hit.

Alternatively, by just calling along on the turn we then face a situation where we have to lead if we hit the river because we won't know if the card that made our hand will scare everyone else out of betting.

In essence then, the turn c/r actually improves our implied odds while at the same time building the pot when we have an equity advantage and possibly gaining us some valuable FE in a huge pot.

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Dog, as always, I really like your response and arguments.
Since i really respect your opinions on LHE matters, i would like to ask what you think about some thoughts i have on the hand.
1st, let me state that on my first response i didn't notice the turn paired us, increasing our equity.
So, acknowledging we have an equity edge and thus benefit from all bets going in...
Isn't bet/3bet an even better play? Especially if we think button will never fold?
Another issue is i notice you are sure no one will/should fold an X7 hand on button? Is this correct?
This would mean i sometimes make some bad folds in my game...
Being in button's position with, say, Jc7c, i would fold to a turn raise since most my outs are really dirty and it's a textbook case of reversed implied odds where i could make my hand and still lose.
Ts and 5s can't really be counted as outs. My pair outs are bad with so much action, and i may be up against a hand like T7 where i still lose when a non spade 5 comes on the river. Especially playing against the blinds. Also, i could be drawing to a split which is never a good proposition with lots of action.

What do you think?
thx

Quote:

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Originally Posted by asdpikas

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrivingDog

I don't think you played this hand badly, but I would suggest a different tack on the turn that no-one has put forward yet.

Preflop: We're getting 7:1 on a call with two suited cards. Easy call.

Flop: Monster draw. Ram and jam.

Turn: Once BB raises the flop and calls our 3bet, it's very unlikely he is going to fold the turn if we lead out. The thought process that leading out and getting BB to raise so Btn will fold a FD or 7x must be based on a different game because Btn never folds these hands in any LHE game I've ever been in.

However, our draw has now become so big (9 outs to flush, 6 to straight, and 5 to two pair or trips - almost half the deck), that when BB bets and Btn calls I would seriously consider a c/r for value as we definitely have more than 1/3 share of the equity in this pot.

It might also gain us some fold equity (either on the turn or if we bet the river again UI) because a flop 3bet and turn c/r is an extremely strong move that even the boys at 0.5/1 will notice. The final plus is that it disguises our hand making it much more likely we will get crying calls on the river if we do hit.

Alternatively, by just calling along on the turn we then face a situation where we have to lead if we hit the river because we won't know if the card that made our hand will scare everyone else out of betting.

In essence then, the turn c/r actually improves our implied odds while at the same time building the pot when we have an equity advantage and possibly gaining us some valuable FE in a huge pot.

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Dog, as always, I really like your response and arguments.
Since i really respect your opinions on LHE matters, i would like to ask what you think about some thoughts i have on the hand.
1st, let me state that on my first response i didn't notice the turn paired us, increasing our equity.
So, acknowledging we have an equity edge and thus benefit from all bets going in...

1) Isn't bet/3bet an even better play? Especially if we think button will never fold?

2) Another issue is i notice you are sure no one will/should fold an X7 hand on button? Is this correct?
This would mean i sometimes make some bad folds in my game...
Being in button's position with, say, Jc7c, i would fold to a turn raise since most my outs are really dirty and it's a textbook case of reversed implied odds where i could make my hand and still lose.

3) Ts and 5s can't really be counted as outs. My pair outs are bad with so much action, and i may be up against a hand like T7 where i still lose when a non spade 5 comes on the river. Especially playing against the blinds. Also, i could be drawing to a split which is never a good proposition with lots of action.

What do you think?
thx

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1) Imo, this is a great idea, but only in principle. The problem is you are counting on BB to raise and Btn to cold call, which will happen pretty rarely. Also, even though we almost certainly have an equity advantage three ways, there's a good chance we need to improve to win, so checking and risking the turn getting checked around is not a big problem.

2) I'm not saying it's a bad fold, I'm saying it's a fold most opponents would never make. In this case I think it would actually be a marginally good fold if the turn were bet and raised and you were btn with 7x because of the risk of a 3bet. So even though the pot would be laying you 5:1 and you're opponents are representing made hands meaning your outs are usually good, I would probably chuck it.

3) You're talking about Hero now again right? All your outs may not be good but you only need 16 clean outs to give you >33% equity. I doubt we can assume more than 4 of our outs are bad on average. T7 will show up here so rarely that I think we can ignore it, especially since the flop wasn't capped.

Our 7 outs are certainly suspect, and our non-spade T and 5 outs as well. Our 3 outs are almost always good, as are our spade outs. I would probably deduct one seven out, and one each non-spade T and 5 outs. Maybe deduct half a 3 out and half a spade out if you want to play it safe. Still leaves us with 16.

As I said, there are other advantages to the turn c/r in this situation which helps make it a viable play, i.e., by representing a strong made hand it improves the implied odds on our draws, and gains us FE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DrivingDog

3) You're talking about Hero now again right? All your outs may not be good but you only need 16 clean outs to give you >33% equity. I doubt we can assume more than 4 of our outs are bad on average. T7 will show up here so rarely that I think we can ignore it, especially since the flop wasn't capped.

Our 7 outs are certainly suspect, and our non-spade T and 5 outs as well. Our 3 outs are almost always good, as are our spade outs. I would probably deduct one seven out, and one each non-spade T and 5 outs. Maybe deduct half a 3 out and half a spade out if you want to play it safe. Still leaves us with 16.

As I said, there are other advantages to the turn c/r in this situation which helps make it a viable play, i.e., by representing a strong made hand it improves the implied odds on our draws, and gains us FE.

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#3 still refferred to button. Hero's outs are pretty clean imo
Thank you for your response!

As pointed out, betting the turn also gets me a better chance for river action if my draw does hit. Lesson learned.

Thanks to everyone for the help!