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interesting game, I get down to less than 1 SB ( 800/1600 level), and come back to take it down. Id like to hear some input on how I played this from especially some of you 45 man specialists. I think I have found a home in these, for now. Play is so bad at the lower levels its frightening.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/Online-...ment-4147.html
H5- Fold
H6- fold, why are you calling a raise with QJo out of position?
H7- fold, calling almost half of your stack with 83o is terrible...
H9- FOLD! Why are you risking your tourney life with Q8o? How can you
call a raise here and think your a head? At best your a 60-40 dog...
H10-I would fold but I get why you called. But again, you DO NOT want to keep risking your chips as the underdog...
H12- An argument could be made for folding. But at least you were the aggressor this time.
H14- JTo from UTG? FOLD
H15- Terrible push. I understand you want to apply pressure to the short stacks but if the BB wakes up with a hand. This is exactly what is going to happen.
H16-fold
H18- is tough but you had to do it
H21- You just got your chips back and this is how you risk them?
H22- Very risky, although the luck you have been having. Id prob push with any two also!
H23- This is good because you were the aggressor. Nh
H24- This is a Joke of a hand. Your almost the chip leader and either of the two stacks could ruin you. You didnt need to risk it here.
H27- Im folding here. You have a large stack and no need to double him up. Way to risky.
Overall, its a miracle that you were able to take this down. How you didn't bust in the first hour amazes me. "Play is so bad at the lower levels its frightening". I don't know how anyone at your table could have played worse then this? You risk WAY too many chips. You voluntarily put money into the pot when you know your behind. Not to mention the numerous times you risked your tourney life on worthless bluffs....I would stay at micro limits for a while.
I dont think you have a clue about these fast blind turbo tourneys, I dont have a "tourney life". I am playing to gain a dominant chip stack, and take advantage of weaker players with it. My stats in these are very good, I dont really need to defend myself. But seriousy, if I have even CLOSE to enough odds to call, especially from the blind, I will. These tourneys are all about arriving at the FT with a dominant stack. Frequently, there will be several very small stacks at he FT: players who are playing way too tight to simply get in the money. I abuse these players. I will take risks that most players wont in order to get that dominant stack. Yes I will bust out alot, but my record points out that my strategy is viable.Quote:
Originally Posted by revolvingiris
I think revo was a little harsh.
H5- Fold
H6- Fold
H7- You're getting better than 2:1 so I guess I see why you called..I guess.
H8- Again, better than 2:1 and I like this call more than the last one.
H10- Meh...
H14- Fold
H15- I thought this was a standard shove. Saying "what if they wake up with a hand" when you're in the SB is retarded. So he woke up with a hand...The other 96% of the time he's folding. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm def. shoving this.
H21- Don't really mind this either. They haven't exactly starting calling light (perhaps until now).
H24- This is rather unnecessary. But still, I understand your reasoning. They just aren't calling light against you. The hands you've shown down (and sucked out) against have all been premium, you just keep running into them.
H27- Fold..or shove over FTW.
You had a little wiggle room towards the end to std raise I think, but you choose to shove them all in.
This wasn't played nearly as badly as revo makes it seem. While I'm not running the ICM calcs on the calls, I don't think they're as bad as he's making them seem. You consistently ran into better hands, but that happens. You played some hands rather poorly and got lucky, but I didn't mind most of the shoves.
Ok, I apologize if my previous post seemed a little harsh and yes I do get 45 man turbos. But using the term "turbo" as an excuse to push hands that don't need to be pushed isn't good. Go back threw your HH and see what would have happened if you folded some of your losing hands. I understand you want a stack but your variance must be horrid...You were behind 70% of the time. How can you justify a winning record with this being the case?
I commented on each of hand, in my previous post check it out. You have too tight of a a mindset for these, IMO. I dont have a " tourney life" like I said before. My play is pretty LAG late in these, but it HAS to be, in these turbo donkaments. Way too many people play wayyyy too tight late, when blinds are high, and I take advantage of that. There are a couple of hands I agree looking back that I could have folded, but overall my style works very well in these0 I know that may be hard to believe, but it does.
H5 I did fold?Quote:
Originally Posted by Illfavor
H6, probably a fold, but I called for odds I guess, looking back maybe fold is better.
anyways, thanks. I may have been a little to loose on a couple of these, but I would rather err on the side of aggression, as I said before , than play too passive. Its amazing how many players in these do not understand, and will fold down to 1 BB trying to get ITM.
BTW Revo, my stats in 45 man turbos >$12
460 $2 $7 29% ROI $1,100 profit
Not a huge sample size, but I am confident that I can keep the ROI over 20% in the long run. I will be running like 1K of these next month, so we'll see ;)
H5, fold in the SB I meant. Not terrible bc you had the chips, but 100 is a lot to call with 75o.
I can't imagine playing a 45-man turbo...that's crazy. You are confident in your style and you have the results to support it. Nice.
Just because you have a high ROI over 460 games doesn't mean that your game has no room for improvement. I've reviewed some of your tourneys in the past and from memory your preflop hand selection is WAY too loose.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdubs
Don't look at at short term positive results. Im not saying you have to be a rock to play these. My only real issue was risking your tourney life when you knew you were behind multiple times. You could have won any amount of money and it still isn't a justification. Luck is a factor in this game and this tourney is a prime example of how powerful it can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdubs
Don't look at at short term positive results. Im not saying you have to be a rock to play these. My only real issue was risking your tourney life when you knew you were behind multiple times. You could have won any amount of money and it still isn't a justification. Luck is a factor in this game and this tourney is a prime example of how powerful it can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdubs
Don't look at at short term positive results. Im not saying you have to be a rock to play these. My only real issue was risking your tourney life when you knew you were behind multiple times. You could have won any amount of money and it still isn't a justification. Luck is a factor in this game and this tourney is a prime example of how powerful it can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdubs
Don't look at at short term positive results. Im not saying you have to be a rock to play these. My only real issue was risking your tourney life when you knew you were behind multiple times. You could have won any amount of money and it still isn't a justification. Luck is a factor in this game and this tourney is a prime example of how powerful it can be.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdubs
Wow sorry, IDK how I managed to quad post?!?
I dont know, just delete them I guess.
Dude, I just reviewed your HH, and I think you need a little work. You are pushing Ax hands UTG when you are 20BB and more deep!
I know how to play these man- Im not saying every hand I play right, but I know what it takes to win them- and sometimes you must call when you are behind- its a fact! if you have odds to call, you probably should call. Only exception is if maybe theres a microstack thats about to blind out on the bubble, or if once in the money, theres a microstack thats about to blind out and you move up a pay level. But basically, if have odds to call, and calling and hitting is going to give you a significant chip advantage, it is definitely +EV to call.
H5- you put dead money into the pot. Fold before limping.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdubs
H6-Your not getting 4-1. Your getting just under that (raiser,cc, and blinds=1500. You called 400, 400x4=1600) and you don't have position.
H9- Yes you are getting 2-1 on your money. But your also a 3-1 dog, you loose in the long run.
H10- I said you don't want to CONTINUE risking chips where your consistently behind. I would rather be the raiser here then the caller.
H14- The only dead money is the blinds? There are 6 hands to act AFTER you and if one of them has anything. You could be knocked out. I would be totally cool with this if it were in a later position.
H15- I just dont like risking things where if they call. I dont really have a shot to win the hand. Of course you cant worry the entire tourney if the BB wakes up. But you can choose better hands to apply pressure. I would rather make this play with 56s the Q3s...
H16- is neither here nor there. I would fold it but its perfectly OK for a push also.
H21- And you will prob bust here a majority of the time. You could have easily just folded and waited for another hand. One were you might be ahead...
H27- If you were the original RAISER I would have no problems with it. But your attacking someone who has already showed aggression. The fact that he had Q8o is lucky. Not to mention hes not THAT short. Say he had KQ,KJ, anything other that Q8 and you double him up. Hes at 36k and your at 32k. Just like that you could have lost the chip lead....
whats your stars name?
I have many HH on here and I havent played them all correctly. Thus why I have them posted for people to comment on. If you would have read my introduction. You would understand that I have been a live cash player for a while and am just getting into OL play. Of course I am going to make mistakes!Quote:
Originally Posted by jdubs
HOWEVER, You should not use my play as a justification for making poor plays yourself. I didnt say you should EVER call when you are behind. You were behind a majority of the time and happen to suck out. And its only +EV if your getting correct odds to play. Which you were not mostly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolvingiris
AHHHHHH, you are a cash player mostly. This explains alot. And yes I was mostly getting the correct odds to call, I beg to differ.
You cannot aplly cash game principles to tournament play. I will sometimes call not even getting exactly the right price, because THAT CALL WILL GIVE ME A MONSTER STACK. Theres some books written by Arnold Snyder where he introduces a concept called "chip utility".. basically saying that each chip gained is not worth less than it was previously, which is argued by Sklansky, but in fact is worth MORE, because the more chips you have in a tournament, the easier it is to play optimally. I dont know if I agree with all of his writings, but alot of what he says makes sense. In a tournament, and this is even more true for larger field tournaments, where the pay structure is so top heavy, you have a tremendous advantage when you have a huge stack. He's saying its worth taking certain risks, even calling when you arent quite getting the odds, to gain such a dominant stack. Applying this philosophy to turbo 45 mans makes sense to me, because I know when I arrive at the FT with 2-3X more than the rest of the table, I am a favorite to win ( or at least finish in top 2, where the real money is)
Right before Hand 21, you had AJ. There was a raise and you folded. Seeing as you had <5 BB shouldn't this be a push?
I would like to see a couple more of these tourneys where maybe you didn't pick up big hands early and you didn't suck out so much. You don't have to finish in the money in them, I am just curious about these multi-table SNGs.
Hey man, you are right, I have room for improvement, and the sample size is pretty small- but I feel as thought I have a handle on these. I have been focusing on these exclusively lately and have devel;oped a strong game plan. W'elll see what the next 1000-1500 games in them brings.Quote:
Originally Posted by taipan168
OK man, well since your strategy is amazing then I have no idea why you posted this in the first place. I am a LIVE player, which means I have focused on cash AND tourneys at B&M's. Congrats on the win and I hope you listen to one of the other many people commenting on your poor play. GL!
Hand 3 - 3x Preflop.
Hand 5 - Fold preflop. Garbage.
Hand 6 - Fold PF
Hand 7 - Horrible call
Hand 9 - Another utterly disgusting call.
Hand 10 - Fold PF. 600 invested, calling 3360 more KNOWING you're behind?
Hand 14 - Again, UTG raise /w JTo. Are you purposely trying to risk your stack when you can wait through the blinds and have position + a better chance at getting a good hand? Fold please.
Hand 24 - Again, just a horrible play. I'm beginning to think you posted this HH because you think it's cute you won by playing horribly. I call your bluff my friend.
Overall, horribly played, although the aggression factor is good, you do have that down. I think you need to choose wiser pots because you are getting very luck with bad pushes, and this will catch up to you.
I know you are going to retort, but I'm telling you this wave will not, and cannot last.
"other many people"? who are they?? wtf are you talking about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by allLiving
LMAO, both you and revo dont get the fact I have like less than 7 BBs in these spots.. My pushes for the most part are fine.. the Q4 3 handed meh, maybe not, otherwise looking back, I liked most of it. When the blinds are high in these things you have to push alot of hands, period. I dont know why that is so hard to grasp.
By the way, my ROI is 29% over 2,200 tourneys, I guess the wave is lasting ;)
You're not taking into consideration the fact that everyone at the table has low M. It's all relative, not only to the blinds, but to your opponents stacks.
I don't have a hard time "grasping" anything, but thank you for you concern. I do just fine. You asked for criticism, I gave you constructive criticism. Take it into consideration, and take from it what you will, I don't really care.
Ahh, makes sense since you're asking for criticism on a a MICRO LIMIT TOURNAMENT. Balllllling?Quote:
Originally Posted by jdubs
Not one person on this thread has said it was a good tourney and well played. Take advice where it is given to you and learn to improve. Not I or anyone else cares about your "profitable" stats. The fact is you were making incorrect plays and got lucky. Yes you have a sound strategy, known as short term blind luck. I'm done with this debate and hope you get it figured out before you lose too much as you climb limits...Quote:
Originally Posted by jdubs
This is a valid point. You have to take into consideration the stack sizes you are pushing into, although, at this level, you will often get folds when they have only 2-4 BBs. But I do attempt to adjust my range according, when there is a short stacked player behind me.Quote:
Originally Posted by allLiving
Tell you what, I'll revisit this thread after I play like 1K more of these and lets see what my stats look like then ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by revolvingiris
totally balling, its called long term profitability :)Quote:
Originally Posted by allLiving
I don't get the point of you posting this in the first place. People are offering you advice on your tournament, but you take that advice and disagree with it. If you want help, then you have to be willing to put aside your ego and listen to what people are telling you.
agreed
Its just that I didnt expect to get flamed about this. Revo's critique is off base IMO. If someone here who had a good deal of experience in 45 man turbos posted ( not at the $1 level!) then I dont think they would find my play so strange. I do admit a couple if mistakes here here, but my play is not nearly as bad as people have written!! Sorry to be so defensive...Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeneron
I think that revo's initial critique was less cordial than it could have been, as have most other responses been. We could all be nicer to each other. Everyone wants to help each other, but everyone must also realize what they are doing when they ask for help and give it.
When you submit a HH for comment, you should be prepared to hear things you don't expect. But also, when you are the one critiquing, you must do so in a way that still shows respect for the others play and their talents. We all have weaknesses, and that doesn't just mean when we're playing. If you cannot comment for someone in a respectable way then it's probably better that you don't. This is basic golden rule/Disney movie theme stuff, but it's somewhat absent right now.
The fact that I play 1$ along with other buy ins OL doesn't mean I am an automatic donk who has no idea what he saying...My review may have been a little harsh and I apologized when you took it that way. But you should be thankful anyone would post harshly. It means they see a serious problem and ACTUALLY want to help. Nothing was said as a flame and the fact that you searched for a HH of mine just to tear it apart and then boost yourself is less then proper etiquette. You opened yourself up for gun fire when you make comments like "Play is so bad at the lower levels its frightening" and then reflect the very play style your commenting on. If you cant take critiques don't post HH's, simple as that. Just so you make sure you listen to your own words..."I do admit a couple if mistakes here here, but my play is not nearly as bad as people have written!". Exactly, everyone has agreed, but you.Quote:
Originally Posted by jdubs
Quote:
Originally Posted by revolvingiris
You have a -39% ROI in 74 tourneys played in 45 mans. No offense, but I am looking for VALID criticism from someone who is profitable in the long term, in these specific tourneys.
I posted in your thread because I honestly see alot of problems you have and was trying to help, not because I was trying to make you look bad- sorry if you took it that way.
Yes play is horrible at this level, and mostly due to people playing way too tight when blinds are high and Ms are low. I probably was a little over the top a couple of times in terms loose calls/pushes, but I would rather this than play too tight/passive late. Like I said, lets see where I stand after playing another 1K of these....
Thank you, I have been a bit defensive and apologize to those in this thread who I may have offended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illfavor
And thank you for your critique, and for your understanding of where I was coming from on most of these hands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdubs
just FYI. 74=vveeeerrrryyyy short term...
I know, and that wasnt meant as a cheap shot, Im just saying if you had a large sample size and positive numbers, I would be more inclined to listen to your criticism.
FWIW
OK for what its worth, the 83 call I agree is borderline, maybe I fold this.Quote:
Originally Posted by allLiving
Q4 push, same story, I can fold this and wait for a better spot.
Thanks for pointing out these mistakes.