QQ, early blinds. $30+3

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08-25-2008, 03:30 AM
mxiu

QQ, early blinds. $30+3

No reads on villain.

PokerStars Game #19880783321: Tournament #104189342, $30+$3 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2008/08/25 - 03:25:35 (ET)
Table '104189342 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: WpgJ (1610 in chips)
Seat 2: kim_chea (1450 in chips)
Seat 3: Hero (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: llimwas (1420 in chips)
Seat 5: Topper_Gecko (1480 in chips)
Seat 6: seeker411 (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: jackwei123 (1460 in chips)
Seat 8: dingotx (1610 in chips)
Seat 9: wcarpenter (1500 in chips)
Topper_Gecko: posts small blind 10
seeker411: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Qc Qh]
jackwei123: folds
dingotx: folds
wcarpenter: folds
WpgJ: calls 20
kim_chea: folds
Hero: raises 80 to 100
llimwas: folds
Topper_Gecko: folds
seeker411: folds
WpgJ: calls 80
*** FLOP *** [Ts 9h Jd]
WpgJ: checks
Hero: bets 200
WpgJ: calls 200
*** TURN *** [Ts 9h Jd] [Qd]
WpgJ: checks
Hero: bets 200
WpgJ: raises 320 to 520
Hero: calls 320
08-25-2008, 03:44 AM
taipan168

Why not just get it in on the turn? You're not folding if he shoves the river.
08-25-2008, 04:05 AM
mxiu

I don't need to show so much strength on the turn. It's an easy turn card to bluff if I give him the opportunity.
08-25-2008, 05:20 AM
revolvingiris

What are you ahead of on the turn? Check the turn since hes giving you a free opportunity to fill up against his straight. As you stated you have no reads on him so why are you so eager to call his raise? I'm checking behind him and am willing to call a marginal bet on the river.
08-25-2008, 07:23 AM
taipan168

Quote:

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

What are you ahead of on the turn? Check the turn since hes giving you a free opportunity to fill up against his straight.

Ummm, why do you automatically put him on the straight? There are PLENTY of other hands that he could have that we beat that would play like this - AJ/KJ/QJ/JT/two pair/set. Only 8x has an OESD, if he's bad enough to call a PSB with a gutshot AK then I pay him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

I'm checking behind him and am willing to call a marginal bet on the river.

Why give a free card here? Why do you think we are beat? We have TOP SET!
08-25-2008, 07:09 PM
revolvingiris

I'm willing to play it more passively being there are NO reads on villain. I don't like to guess that he didn't hit the 4 card straight....I would also bet more on the turn. The 200 bet is small compared to pot and it looks very weak....You do have top set but as we all know, top set doesn't beat a straight. I'm not saying he is beat here. I'm just saying its very probable villain had pair with a redraw.
08-25-2008, 07:32 PM
drmcboy

Tai re read your post/the board because what you said doesn't make sense.

I'd check the turn, if you're betting it should be bet/fold but if we check we can call a river bet and maybe win a monster pot if we fill.
08-25-2008, 08:05 PM
taipan168

Sorry - I made a mistake - KJ beats us but the other hands I mentioned we're still way ahead of. Otherwise, I'm feeling bit slow today, what is the logic of checking behind on this board? Is it because this is a WA/WB and we have lots of outs on the river?
08-25-2008, 08:22 PM
drmcboy

what is the logic behind betting? All those hands you mention hate the Q and are about to fold. Maybe he'll try and bluff us, maybe we fill, and we lose less when we're beat. I'm also not sure why you are ignoring Kx hands besides KJ.

Do you really have as your default read that someone will call a bet here with AJ or check raise with two pair? I just think that's so weird I'm not sure how to reply. I don't think 30 SNGers are super great but I do think they can read the board.
08-25-2008, 08:32 PM
mxiu

It wouldn't be default for someone to c/r me unless they had a straight. That's pretty much level 1 thinking right there. I really wanted to make my turn bet look like cock.. I thought it would get raised by a really big range.

River came a 6, villain fires 500 on the river, I snapped him to check out his A7 high.

If by chance villain had a straight and I filled up, the turn mini-bet/mini-raise ensures I get all his chips on the river doesn't it? If not I still extract maximum on hands that I beat.

When I said no reads, I meant that he didn't have stats on startracker... which means he made his account within the past month.
08-25-2008, 08:39 PM
drmcboy

i was talking to Tai.

I don't really know what your first sentence means. He only check raises with a straight, but you expect to get raised light? As for the rest if he has a straight and you fill the money is going in. That's especially true if you think he'll call you with two pair on this board.

I hope you don't let his horrible play influence your evaluation of this hand because your line is really bad. You have him calling with two pair but also bluffing scare cards, it doesn't make sense.
08-25-2008, 08:43 PM
mxiu

Normally on this board you would think someone would c/r with a straight, and pretty much nothing else.

My turn bet looks like cock and he figures if he raises me here I have to be scurred of the straight. He can do this with ATC really if he thinks I'll fold.
08-25-2008, 08:48 PM
revolvingiris

I think the play in question is the turn. If he does have the straight here your investing far more chips to reach the same result. Which is you need to fill on the river. Checking behind allows you to get a free chance at a possible boat and you still have position on him. IMO the turn bet is wasted chips.
08-25-2008, 10:02 PM
taipan168

Quote:

Originally Posted by drmcboy

I don't really know what your first sentence means. He only check raises with a straight, but you expect to get raised light? As for the rest if he has a straight and you fill the money is going in. That's especially true if you think he'll call you with two pair on this board.

I think you're right, he is never check/raising with AJ on this board and all the two pair/set hands will be worried about the straight. Checking behind gives us a chance to hit one of our outs for free and avoids giving him the chance to C-R us off our hand.

If we check behind on the turn then we have to call a bet on the river for sure, don't we?

Quote:

Originally Posted by drmcboy

I hope you don't let his horrible play influence your evaluation of this hand because your line is really bad. You have him calling with two pair but also bluffing scare cards, it doesn't make sense.

I have always had trouble with this kind of situation and knowing what line is best. Thanks for your feedback.
08-26-2008, 12:40 AM
drmcboy

Quote:

Normally on this board you would think someone would c/r with a straight, and pretty much nothing else.

My turn bet looks like cock and he figures if he raises me here I have to be scurred of the straight. He can do this with ATC really if he thinks I'll fold.

I agree, a check raise means a straight. It does not mean ATC. Your bet is perfectly normal given how scary the board is. It would be a great bluff but our hand has too much value to turn into a bluff.

You cannot expect an unknown to call the flop on this board specifically to fire two bullets at your from there. Not just two bullets, but a check raise and then a bullet! You knew nothing about this player and yet you bet into him on this turn expecting him to be drawing dead and raise you anyway. It is not a good play.

Tai - yes, I think calling a river bet is fine but I wouldn't expect to do much more than break even and maybe get some free card love down the road.
08-26-2008, 02:18 PM
allLiving

Quote:

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

I'm willing to play it more passively being there are NO reads on villain. I don't like to guess that he didn't hit the 4 card straight....I would also bet more on the turn. The 200 bet is small compared to pot and it looks very weak....You do have top set but as we all know, top set doesn't beat a straight. I'm not saying he is beat here. I'm just saying its very probable villain had pair with a redraw.

There are no reads. It's not "probable" that he has a pair with a re-draw. Most likely if that were the case, they would play more aggressively. Pair + redraw to a straight = re-raise for value, not a check-call to see if they can peel off a straight on the turn.

Also, I'm checking the turn to minimize the size of this pot on a dangerous board.

Unfortunately you have no reads which really sucks, so a river call is possibly a crying call if the player is a callstation who likes draws (but we don't know).
08-26-2008, 08:24 PM
revolvingiris

Quote:

Originally Posted by allLiving

Quote:

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

I'm willing to play it more passively being there are NO reads on villain. I don't like to guess that he didn't hit the 4 card straight....I would also bet more on the turn. The 200 bet is small compared to pot and it looks very weak....You do have top set but as we all know, top set doesn't beat a straight. I'm not saying he is beat here. I'm just saying its very probable villain had pair with a redraw.

There are no reads. It's not "probable" that he has a pair with a re-draw. Most likely if that were the case, they would play more aggressively. Pair + redraw to a straight = re-raise for value, not a check-call to see if they can peel off a straight on the turn.

This makes your argument void. How can you state that he doesn't have, for example KJ because of reads. But yet you also state that there aren't any reads? Your guesstimate is as good as mine. Its as probable as it is improbable. KJ would CC if villain was worried you already had the straight, or any K+pair for that matter? Either way, my only point was that I am slowing down on the turn because I am not going to risk my tourney on what he MIGHT not have..