zook's blog

I feel like I haven't been contributing much to FTR recently, despite that fact that I'm a playing professionally and have more time on my hands than usual. So I'm going to start this thing and see how long I can keep it up. My plan is to use it as a daily (or near daily) sounding board for poker thoughts. In every session I learn or relearn something important and I'll try to post it here.

Some background... started playing in fall of 2004, home games->sngs->mtts->low stakes FR cash->midstakes FR->midstakes 6max->shots at highstakes 6max... pretty typical evolution. Reading FTR and posting hands helped me immensely, as did poker books, esp Sklansky's NLHE Theory & Practice. Right now I'm rolled for 5/10 comfortably but play mostly 2/4 and 3/6 because the 5/10 games aren't usually that great. I occasionally take shots at 10/20, but only when a fish from my buddy list shows up there.

I have a quality over quantity approach to poker. I don't set hand goals and rarely play more than 1200 hands/day. I only sit at good tables in good seats and play no more than 6 tables at a time.. I'm a firm believer that if you table select carefully and control tilt you can beat any game up through 3/6 with a very basic poker skill set.

Very nice man! Good luck!

Awesome, looking forward to reading this.

Yessssssss about time sir!

haha good advice on table selection.. definitely don't do that very well :P

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Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Awesome, looking forward to reading this.

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The games on Full Tilt were really good today, multiple fish on at least 8 tables at 2/4 and 3/6 which is way more than usual. So today's topic is an easy one...

Playing with fish

Some attention gets paid on poker forums to table and seat selection (although not nearly enough imo) but there isn't a lot said about what to do once you get a good seat at a good table. The answer is pretty easy, which is play as many hands as possible with the fish. If they like to open limp, raise to isolate, if they open raise way too much, 3bet them for value and to isolate. If a reg raises and the fish calls, think before you fold or squeeze... your implied odds have gone up and a hand like 87o might be a call (obv lots of factors involved, including position, stack sizes and likelihood of callers vs. squeezers behind). Set yourself up to play as many big pots as possible with the fish, b/c they're often going to get it in bad.

I could literally pull up thousands of examples from PT, but here are a couple from today...

1. CO is running 30/9/1.5 over 500 hands. Perfect guy to have on my right and we're at a deep table so I'm salivating. I'm raising such a large percentage of my range in this spot it's retarded. (That's right, Special Olympics guy can boycott this blog too.) I think I'm raising close to 60% here. I get a call from shorty BB who's another fish running 50/10/1.

Full Tilt Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

CO: $1,618
Hero (BTN): $794
SB: $908.10
BB: $124
UTG: $1,659.65
MP: $741.50

Pre-Flop: 5:club: 7:spade: dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, CO calls $4, Hero raises to $18, SB folds, BB calls $14, CO calls $14

I could even raise to $20 or $22 pre I think. I would if he had limped the button and I was in the sb, but I should think about doing it more in position vs. limp/callers.

Flop: ($56) 3:heart: 6:club: 9:diamond: (3 Players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets $48, BB calls $48, CO folds

I flop an oesd and it's a stupid easy cbet. I get called a lot by both players, but they're almost never c/r'ing and I want to play a big pot with CO. Unfortunately he folds, but I gin the turn and stack the shorty.

Turn: ($152) 8:spade: (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $96, BB calls $58 and is All-In

River: ($268) 2:heart: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $268 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed 5:club: 7:spade: (a straight, Nine high) and WON $265 (+$141 NET)
BB showed 9:spade: 6:diamond: (two pair, Nines and Sixes) and LOST (-$124 NET)


2. I've played some with SB and he's a fish, running 21/3/1.2. I've run over him in this session and others, raising a lot of his limps and cbetting or double-barreling him out of pots.

Full Tilt Poker, $3/$6 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (BB): $977.65
UTG: $1,652.45
BTN: $319.50
SB: $342

Pre-Flop: T:club: 9:spade: dealt to Hero (BB)
2 folds, SB calls $3, Hero raises to $21, SB calls $15

Pre-flop is standard even though we're behind his range. We might fold some better hands, it establishes initiative and builds a pot in case we hit something good.

Flop: ($42) 5:spade: 6:diamond: 9:diamond: (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $36, SB raises to $72, Hero calls $36

Std c-bet vs. a guy who will call with any piece. The c/r actually worried me. He isn't very aggro post-flop so this could be a set or overpair slowplayed pre-flop. But I reminded myself that I've been running over him, he's a fish and I have top pair. I decide that calling and letting him bluff the turn is best. A diamond turn sucks but I tend to doubt he c/mr's draws... I think his range is pretty polarized here.

Turn: ($186) 6:club: (2 Players)
SB bets $78, Hero raises to $420, SB calls $171 and is All-In

Not the best turn card and I'm not sure if shoving is right... in retrospect I think I prefer a call b/c his small bet keeps his range polarized and it's hard to imagine what worse hand is calling. But one does...

River: ($684) A:diamond: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $684 Pot ($2 Rake)
Hero showed T:club: 9:spade: (two pair, Nines and Sixes) and LOST (-$342 NET)
SB showed A:club: 5:heart: (two pair, Aces and Sixes) and WON $682 (+$340 NET)

This hand brings up another important point about playing with fish. When you have marginal decisions against them, gambool! One, they're capable of much worse plays than you expect and two, if you don't bust them first, there's a chance someone else at your table will.

Here's a hand from last week to illustrate...

3. BB is a whale, running 60/20/1.5. He's donated over $1k to me already at this table on big bluffs. Basically this guy is a ticking time bomb and with all the deep stacks at the table I want to get his money before anyone else does.

Still, I timed down a bit before calling 250bb off pre-flop with AKs. Eventually I decided I could have snapped. I don't think he ever plays AA or KK like this and there's a chance he's doing it with AQ or worse.

Full Tilt Poker, $3/$6 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $894
BB: $2,784.30
UTG: $870.90
MP: $2,511.05
Hero (CO): $1,768.85
BTN: $1,321.25

Pre-Flop: A:diamond: K:diamond: dealt to Hero (CO)
2 folds, Hero raises to $21, BTN calls $21, SB folds, BB raises to $87, Hero raises to $282, BTN folds, BB raises to $2,784.30 and is All-In, Hero calls $1,486.85 and is All-In

Flop: ($3,561.70) 5:diamond: 9:club: 9:spade: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: ($3,561.70) 5:heart: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($3,561.70) Q:heart: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $3,561.70 Pot ($3 Rake)
BB showed 8:heart: 8:club: (two pair, Nines and Eights) and WON $3,558.70 (+$1,789.85 NET)
Hero showed A:diamond: K:diamond: (two pair, Nines and Fives) and LOST (-$1,768.85 NET)

Disappointing result, but fun hand.

cliffnotes: Find fish, sit on their left, play as many hands with them as possible and gamboooool!

good notes :( / :) last hand was really really gay

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If they like to open limp, raise to isolate, if they open raise way too much, 3bet them for value and to isolate.

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Do you worry much about table position (as against position v's fish) when doing this?

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

Do you worry much about table position (as against position v's fish) when doing this?

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If I understand what you're asking, not really. I tighten my range a little if I'm out of position b/c fish are going to call a lot and it's harder to win pots oop. But that situation doesn't occur that often b/c he has to open limp in LP and it has to get folded to me in the SB or BB. When an laggro fish open raises in LP I just 3bet a balanced range (no crap) from the blinds so I don't mind a call.

Some regulars will notice your constant iso raises of the fish and 3bet you lighter, but that just provides good opportunities for light 4betting.

If I didn't answer the question, please clarify...

Wow, that kind of money is mind boggling to me, but I'll try to think of it in $10NL terms.

I've learned a lot already and I look forward to further posts!

Good hands. I often make it 1 bb extra when I'm isolating fish to create a bigger pot and make it more difficult for the regs to 3bet me. The only problem I find with the strategy is that if a good reg does realise that you are constantly trying to isolate a fish he will 3bet you more and the bigger initial raise size you used makes it more difficult to play back at the regs constant 3betting because of the SPR.

I mean more like he limps UTG and we're to his left. So we have position on him, but we risk being OOP if we're called by anyone else other than the blinds.

I've had a few times recently where I have great position on a weak player, but because I avoid playing a wide range against him unless I'm in LP I dont feel like I'm making the most of the good relative position.

My god, I thought I was pretty crazy with isolation. 57o is just too weak for me. That said, I like to isolate limpers with 10x to make a bigger pot (when I'm sure I have the best of the flop fold equity) and make it harder for my opponents to follow me into the pot with speculative hands.

How do you actually go about table selecting? Do you watch the table before joining it, looking for fish. Or do you know the fish at your stakes?

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

I mean more like he limps UTG and we're to his left. So we have position on him, but we risk being OOP if we're called by anyone else other than the blinds.

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I don't worry about this too much because the regs in my games are generally more likely to 3bet than cold call (often a leak). But there are some good ones that will happily join multi-way pots with fish, so if they're at my table I do need to tighten my range from EP as you described.

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Originally Posted by CBAT

How do you actually go about table selecting? Do you watch the table before joining it, looking for fish. Or do you know the fish at your stakes?

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On Full Tilt you can datamine (import hand histories and gather stats by just observing tables) which makes it really easy. On Stars I think the best way is to do it by subtraction. Sit at tables, play for 5 or 6 orbits until you get stats/reads on the players, sit out if there isn't a fish 3 or fewer seats to your right and join a new table. But you shouldn't worry too much about table/seat selection at 10nl, most tables will be good. Just play solid, aggressive poker and valuebet the shit out of your good hands.

Hey Zook,

Good luck with your operation. Will be following it closely.

My brain is fried from too much poker. Ran bad in two FTOPS events but good in cash. Lots of fishies out again.

Not going to make a long post, but here are a few interesting hands...

1. I almost didn't bluff this turn but reminded myself that it doesn't need to work that often to be profitable b/c he only has $140 behind. 40% is the breakeven point.

Full Tilt Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $244.30
Hero (BB): $406
UTG: $418
CO: $376
BTN: $125.60

Pre-Flop: K:diamond: T:heart: dealt to Hero (BB)
3 folds, SB calls $2, Hero raises to $16, SB calls $12

Flop: ($32) A:spade: 8:spade: 9:heart: (2 Players)
SB bets $32, Hero raises to $90, SB calls $58

Turn: ($212) 4:diamond: (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $148, SB folds

2. Some regs in my games are aggro enough and valuebet thinly enough that I can take really passive lines and still get paid.

Full Tilt Poker, $3/$6 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $1,222.65
Hero (BB): $600
UTG: $1,524.45
CO: $678
BTN: $600

Pre-Flop: 2:diamond: 2:club: dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG raises to $21, CO folds, BTN calls $21, SB folds, Hero calls $15

Flop: ($66) J:spade: 2:heart: 6:club: (3 Players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $45, BTN folds, Hero calls $45

Turn: ($156) K:heart: (2 Players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $115, Hero calls $115

River: ($386) 4:spade: (2 Players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $1,343.45 and is All-In, Hero calls $419 and is All-In

Results: $1,224 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed 2:diamond: 2:club: (three of a kind, Twos) and WON $1,221 (+$621 NET)
UTG showed A:club: K:spade: (a pair of Kings) and LOST (-$600 NET)

3. One I played badly. I flatted pre to keep the SB megafish in the hand. He's donk potting a much wider range than you'd expect here but the BB cold call has to be JJ+ so I think I can find a fold on the flop. BB tanked before overshoving, even getting like 5:1 with AA, so maybe it wasn't terrible.

Full Tilt Poker, $3/$6 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (UTG): $605.60
CO: $1,183.75
BTN: $609
SB: $937.10
BB: $1,198.95

Pre-Flop: K:heart: K:diamond: dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero raises to $21, 2 folds, SB calls $18, BB raises to $84, Hero calls $63, SB calls $63

Flop: ($252) T:diamond: 2:club: J:spade: (3 Players)
SB bets $252, BB calls $252, Hero raises to $521.60 and is All-In, SB calls $269.60, BB raises to $1,114.95 and is All-In, SB calls $331.50 and is All-In

Turn: ($2,479.80) 4:club: (3 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($2,479.80) J:club: (3 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $2,479.80 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed K:heart: K:diamond: (two pair, Kings and Jacks) and LOST (-$605.60 NET)
SB showed A:diamond: J:heart: (three of a kind, Jacks) and WON $2,476.80 (+$1,539.70 NET)
BB showed A:club: A:spade: (two pair, Aces and Jacks) and LOST (-$937.10 NET)

At least the megafish sucked out :)

The fish sucks you in.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,607,340 games 0.050 secs 32,146,800 games/sec

Board: Td 2c Js
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.552% 49.52% 02.03% 796018 32593.00 { TT+ }
Hand 1: 22.407% 21.71% 00.69% 349008 11154.00 { TT+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 2: 26.041% 23.91% 02.13% 384348 34219.00 { KdKh }

oooh, thanks for that Fnord

That said, it's never a happy time when you need to stick the better part of a buy-in into the pot only because of the money already in the pot.

Zook,

That first hand in your last post above, is the flop raise a bluff because you think he has some random shit, will fold an ace or a high equity draw or for value because you think he has primarily draws in his leading range and will call with them? I ask because I always figure that some guy with less than 100bb is never folding and ace or any draw if I raise his donk.

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Originally Posted by Irisheyes

That first hand in your last post above, is the flop raise a bluff because you think he has some random shit, will fold an ace or a high equity draw or for value because you think he has primarily draws in his leading range and will call with them? I ask because I always figure that some guy with less than 100bb is never folding and ace or any draw if I raise his donk.

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Random shit. Guy was 31/0/3.3 so I figured he's bluffing a lot to play that many hands with that high an AF. Bad players tend to play their hands backwards, as you know, so pot-sized donks are suspicious. I thought I had enough fold equity from his air, 9's and 8's to make the raise profitable. After he calls I think the turn bet is close but draws are a big part of his range and he might even fold a weak ace? Maybe I just got lucky on this one, but was trying to make the point to consider bluffing when you can lay yourself a good price. Another situation that comes up a lot is double and triple barreling after 3 betting. Pot gets big, money left behind gets smaller, a shove doesn't have to work as often to be profitable.

edit: basic stuff for you I know Irish, but I'm writing for a wide audience :)

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Originally Posted by zook

1. CO is running 30/9/1.5 over 500 hands. Perfect guy to have on my right and we're at a deep table so I'm salivating. I'm raising such a large percentage of my range in this spot it's retarded. (That's right, Special Olympics guy can boycott this blog too.) I think I'm raising close to 60% here. I get a call from shorty BB who's another fish running 50/10/1.

Full Tilt Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

CO: $1,618
Hero (BTN): $794
SB: $908.10
BB: $124
UTG: $1,659.65
MP: $741.50

Pre-Flop: 5Club 7Spade dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, CO calls $4, Hero raises to $18, SB folds, BB calls $14, CO calls $14

I could even raise to $20 or $22 pre I think. I would if he had limped the button and I was in the sb, but I should think about doing it more in position vs. limp/callers.

Flop: ($56) 3Heart 6Club 9Diamond (3 Players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets $48, BB calls $48, CO folds

I flop an oesd and it's a stupid easy cbet. I get called a lot by both players, but they're almost never c/r'ing and I want to play a big pot with CO. Unfortunately he folds, but I gin the turn and stack the shorty.

Turn: ($152) 8Spade (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $96, BB calls $58 and is All-In

River: ($268) 2Heart (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $268 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed 5Club 7Spade (a straight, Nine high) and WON $265 (+$141 NET)
BB showed 9Spade 6Diamond (two pair, Nines and Sixes) and LOST (-$124 NET)

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Hi zook great thread. I've just got a question can you run me through how you would have played this post flop if you were the BB, i.e. the roles and cards were reversed. At what point would you have folded?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

I've just got a question can you run me through how you would have played this post flop if you were the BB, i.e. the roles and cards were reversed. At what point would you have folded?

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Well, pre-flop obviously. Post-flop he can never fold when he flops top two with only 2x pot behind. His line is fine, c/r the flop AI is fine too.

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Originally Posted by zook

After he calls I think the turn bet is close but draws are a big part of his range and he might even fold a weak ace? Maybe I just got lucky on this one, but was trying to make the point to consider bluffing when you can lay yourself a good price. Another situation that comes up a lot is double and triple barreling after 3 betting. Pot gets big, money left behind gets smaller, a shove doesn't have to work as often to be profitable.

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Yeah I agree. In fact I pretty much feel like shoving the turn is mandatory if we raise the flop in this hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Irisheyes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zook

After he calls I think the turn bet is close but draws are a big part of his range and he might even fold a weak ace? Maybe I just got lucky on this one, but was trying to make the point to consider bluffing when you can lay yourself a good price. Another situation that comes up a lot is double and triple barreling after 3 betting. Pot gets big, money left behind gets smaller, a shove doesn't have to work as often to be profitable.

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Yeah I agree. In fact I pretty much feel like shoving the turn is mandatory if we raise the flop in this hand.

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We gotta follow through more, right Irish!?

yah this is the kind of spot I'd shut down for sure. I just wouldn't expect him to be folding this turn enough honestly, to make it profitable.

I guess this depends on read. If I had ANY hand that I called on flop with value, I'd call this turn bet cause a million draws didn't get there. But obv its also possible I have a draw. The bad side to this hand is that I think a lot of donks call draws in this spot to your turn shove. The good side to this is that our hand is actually ahead of most of the draws.

Would you have done this if your hand was like 56 or something? I think we definitely need to do this with a hand that will be better than his drawing hands he'll often call with.

Nice read Z, good luck with the blog....

Are you an honest man yet? If not, when is D-Day?

Maybe someday I will make it past $100 for good and have one of these blogs worth reading....

Thanks c-man.

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Originally Posted by cardsman1992

Are you an honest man yet? If not, when is D-Day?

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Not yet, spring sometime. We're in no rush :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cardsman1992

Maybe someday I will make it past $100 for good and have one of these blogs worth reading....

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You're rolled for 200nl already! Move up and run good!

Spewed a lot today. When I'm on a winning streak I tend to get overconfident and loosen up my game too much. I'm going to start reviewing recent losing hands before each session to try to get myself in the right mindset. I'll let you know how it goes.

Today I 3-barreled a few calling stations (they must be on a draw!) and was reminded why that's a bad idea. I also just made a few too many fancy plays. Here are a couple...

1. Villain is 27/20/3 and likes to make plays. Calls 3bets a lot in position. This flop is a decent one to bluff raise because I'm cbetting 100% of my range, but this is still a bad shove vs. his range and I was damn lucky to have ~50% equity.

Full Tilt Poker, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $2,207.50
BTN: $3,525.75
Hero (SB): $1,035
BB: $3,623.40

Pre-Flop: T:spade: T:diamond: dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, BTN raises to $35, Hero raises to $120, BB folds, BTN calls $85

Flop: ($250) 9:heart: K:club: 7:club: (2 Players)
Hero bets $180, BTN raises to $650, Hero raises to $915 and is All-In, BTN calls $265

Turn: ($2,080) J:club: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($2,080) 3:spade: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $2,080 Pot ($2 Rake)
BTN showed A:club: 9:club: (a flush, Ace high) and WON $2,078 (+$1,043 NET)
Hero showed T:spade: T:diamond: (a pair of Tens) and LOST (-$1,035 NET)

2. Villain is 42/26/1.2. I figured he calls my cbet with underpairs and crappy K's a lot and will fold a lot of that to my turn c/bomb. Obviously he hit the turn big, but I don't know if a player like this can fold KT here? Meh about this one.

Full Tilt Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BTN: $487.40
SB: $400
BB: $406.20
Hero (UTG): $427.90
CO: $202.60

Pre-Flop: 7:heart: 7:club: dealt to Hero (UTG)
Hero raises to $14, CO calls $14, BTN calls $14, SB folds, BB calls $10

Flop: ($58) K:club: 5:diamond: 4:spade: (4 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $40, CO folds, BTN calls $40, BB folds

Turn: ($138) 6:heart: (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $92, Hero raises to $373.90 and is All-In, BTN calls $281.90

River: ($885.80) A:heart: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $885.80 Pot ($3 Rake)
BTN showed 6:diamond: K:diamond: (two pair, Kings and Sixes) and WON $882.80 (+$454.90 NET)
Hero showed 7:heart: 7:club: (a pair of Sevens) and LOST (-$427.90 NET)

3. And why you should play flopped non-nut flushes fast. No history, villain has std taggy stats.

Full Tilt Poker, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $660.20
UTG: $406
MP: $1,911.45
Hero (CO): $476.60
BTN: $400
SB: $400

Pre-Flop: 6:club: K:club: dealt to Hero (CO)
2 folds, Hero raises to $14, 2 folds, BB calls $10

Flop: ($30) 2:club: 4:club: 8:club: (2 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets $24, BB raises to $128, Hero raises to $462.60 and is All-In, BB calls $334.60

Turn: ($955.20) T:heart: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($955.20) 8:spade: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $955.20 Pot ($3 Rake)
BB showed J:spade: A:club: (a pair of Eights) and LOST (-$476.60 NET)
Hero showed 6:club: K:club: (a flush, King high) and WON $952.20 (+$475.60 NET)


In hand 2 I was sitting two seats to the whale's right b/c of a discussion I had with griffey last night. We were wondering whether it's more +ev to sit at the first available seat at a fish's table or wait for a seat on his left and risk him busting before one opens up. I think we agreed that it depends on the size of the fish. This one was big enough that I just sat.

Awesome, zook making a blog! I'll definitely be following along.

In what ways and what specific tools are you using to review sessions? How many hands do you review and how do you select them? Just big pots, or session stats as well?

ill be reading this blog man for sure, gl

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Originally Posted by mixchange

In what ways and what specific tools are you using to review sessions? How many hands do you review and how do you select them? Just big pots, or session stats as well?

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I just go through my 10 biggest winners and losers. If the hands aren't standard or seem marginal I use Pokerstove for equity calculations and occasionally do EV equations. That's about it really. I did just buy Holdem Manager and I'm excited to do more in-depth analysis once I get it figured out.

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Originally Posted by zook

I just go through my 10 biggest winners and losers.

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I do my best to avoid hyper-focusing on those hands. Soo much value in small pots....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zook

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mixchange

In what ways and what specific tools are you using to review sessions? How many hands do you review and how do you select them? Just big pots, or session stats as well?

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I just go through my 10 biggest winners and losers. If the hands aren't standard or seem marginal I use Pokerstove for equity calculations and occasionally do EV equations. That's about it really. I did just buy Holdem Manager and I'm excited to do more in-depth analysis once I get it figured out.

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YESSS HEM is goood.

Fnord: What's your strategy for evaluating your small pot play? I guess I could try to look at top 20 winners and losers... I usually play relatively short sessions (600-1000 hands) so that would get me all the medium pots at least...

The 5/10 tables were finally good yesterday so I mostly played there. Unfortunately I didn't run very well and couldn't make hands against the fish. I reviewed some losing hands before the session and I think it helped me tighten up and play more solid poker. And I played well with a couple of notable exceptions...

When Pots Odds Don't Matter or Avoiding The "Awww Fuckit" Call

Pot odds are great in limit and small stakes no-limit where opponents can't or don't bet size properly to deny odds to draw. But in medium and high stakes they're most often used as a rationalization for bad calls.

1. Full Tilt Poker, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BTN: $5,114
SB: $1,000.75
Hero (BB): $1,274
UTG: $768.15
MP: $2,682
CO: $4,887

Pre-Flop: 5:heart: 4:heart: dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG calls $10, 2 folds, BTN calls $10, SB raises to $66, Hero calls $56, 2 folds

Flop: ($152) 9:heart: 4:club: K:heart: (2 Players)
SB bets $100, Hero calls $100

A raise and get it in here is good too I think.

Turn: ($352) K:spade: (2 Players)
SB bets $150, Hero calls $150

Weird small bet here from a reg. Looked to me like he was trying to induce? If that was my read I should have folded because 4's are prob no longer outs and I may be drawing dead to 99. I really doubt he has air or a flush draw with this bet size.

River: ($652) Q:heart: (2 Players)
SB checks, Hero bets $450, SB raises to $684.75 and is All-In, Hero calls $234.75

And now for the awww fuckit call. My thought process... sweet, I hit my flush! He won't believe I'm a chasing fish, I'll get some value from K's here. Check/raise all-in? WTF? Only $200 more, I'm pot-comitted, awww fuckit CALL! This last sentence goes through my head in about 100 milliseconds, approximately the amount of time it takes for my finger to twitch and click the mouse. Obviously I'm never good here and would really improve my winrate if I could fold and save myself 25bb. Sigh.

Results: $2,021.50 Pot ($3 Rake)
SB showed Q:spade: Q:diamond: (a full house, Queens full of Kings) and WON $2,018.50 (+$1,017.75 NET)
Hero mucked 5:heart: 4:heart: (a flush, King high) and LOST (-$1,000.75 NET)

2. Full Tilt Poker, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $2,000
MP: $1,572
CO: $4,600
BTN: $419
Hero (SB): $3,888.50
BB: $4,078.50

Pre-Flop: 5:club: 6:club: dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG raises to $35, 3 folds, Hero calls $30, BB folds

Flop: ($80) 5:heart: J:club: 5:spade: (2 Players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $55, Hero raises to $220, UTG calls $165

Turn: ($520) 8:diamond: (2 Players)
Hero bets $400, UTG calls $400

River: ($1,320) J:heart: (2 Players)
Hero bets $850, UTG raises to $1,345 and is All-In, Hero calls $495

After the turn I put him on AJ/QQ+. The river comes and I'm pissed, but I don't want to miss value from QQ+ so I put in a bet. It might be a little big, but I'm not sure. Then he shoves and my heart sinks... did he really hit his two-outer? I can't fucking believe it. Well I'm getting 7:1 CALL! Such a tilty dumbass call in another spot I'm never good.

Results: $4,010 Pot ($3 Rake)
UTG showed J:diamond: K:club: (a full house, Jacks full of Fives) and WON $4,007 (+$2,007 NET)
Hero mucked 5:club: 6:club: (a full house, Fives full of Jacks) and LOST (-$2,000 NET)

Hope you learned something from my spew. Actually I hope I learned something from it! I'm going to try to slow down in big pots today and even take my hand off the mouse when faced with decisions like these. My rational mind would never make these plays but my impulsive mind reacts first. I need to play more like Spock.

I like this last post. I do these dumbass "pot odds" calls ALLLL the time. I agree though, saving the 25bb's etc can definitely add up.

The flush hand is kind of close, cause in theory he could be value bombing some strong trips though I doubt it. In the second spot, he's never value shoving worse.

Folding both is prob best though.

Hand 2, I don't see the point in betting the river (saw it posted in the HS forum but that's above my stakes grade). How often are we sacrificing value by checking and don't we get more from worse with a c/c?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warpe

Hand 2, I don't see the point in betting the river (saw it posted in the HS forum but that's above my stakes grade). How often are we sacrificing value by checking and don't we get more from worse with a c/c?

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I don't think QQ+ bet if we check but I do think they call a medium-sized bet a lot. So I think it's c/f or b/f. But I posted it b/c I'm not 100% sure obv.

Man, I think #2 is just straight spew, I think you have to check/fold....

#1, I agree, I can't remember the last time I beat a river check raise (or a river raise of any type)!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cardsman1992

Man, I think #2 is just straight spew

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http://icanhascheezburger.files.word...bvious-hat.jpg

I think I found where the 5/10 fish have been hiding... the deep tables! I don't know why they prefer them but I've been datamining the deep instead of the regular recently and finding a lot more fish. That plus no shorties (50bb min buyin) more than outweighs the negatives of playing deep against some of the better regs.

Played well and ran well today. 3 fun brag hands...

1. Big hand of the day. Never fun calling off 130bb with a non-nut draw but I priced myself in and I've seen this guy spew a few times in the past.

Full Tilt Poker, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 3 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $4,532.05
Hero (BTN): $2,315.50
SB: $2,005

Pre-Flop: K:spade: Q:spade: dealt to Hero (BTN)
Hero raises to $30, SB raises to $110, BB folds, Hero calls $80

Flop: ($230) T:club: 4:spade: 6:spade: (2 Players)
SB bets $160, Hero raises to $600, SB raises to $1,895 and is All-In, Hero calls $1,295

Turn: ($4,020) A:diamond: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($4,020) J:spade: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $4,020 Pot ($1 Rake)
Hero showed K:spade: Q:spade: (a flush, King high) and WON $4,019 (+$2,014 NET)
SB showed 7:diamond: 8:diamond: (Ace Jack high) and LOST (-$2,005 NET)

2. Villain is running 52/25 and I'm 3 betting him a lot. He's mostly calling in and oop and seems to be playing fit or fold on the flop. He's been raising to $35 a lot, so I figure this raise to $20 is a weaker hand that I can isolate and steal most flops from. 97o is pretty weak to do this but sometimes you get called by worse :)

Full Tilt Poker, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP: $1,363
CO: $1,138.50
Hero (BTN): $2,308
SB: $1,913
BB: $2,594
UTG: $1,000

Pre-Flop: 7:heart: 9:spade: dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, CO raises to $20, Hero raises to $75, 2 folds, CO calls $55

Flop: ($165) 5:spade: 4:heart: 7:spade: (2 Players)
CO bets $80, Hero calls $80

Turn: ($325) 9:heart: (2 Players)
CO bets $190, Hero raises to $1,000, CO calls $793.50 and is All-In

River: ($2,292) A:heart: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $2,292 Pot ($3 Rake)
CO showed 6:diamond: 5:diamond: (a pair of Fives) and LOST (-$1,138.50 NET)
Hero showed 7:heart: 9:spade: (two pair, Nines and Sevens) and WON $2,289 (+$1,150.50 NET)

3. I have Alexos to thank for this one. (He mentioned in one of my HSNL threads that he'll induce calls from fish with chat.) This is my first time!

Full Tilt Poker, $3/$6 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): $603
BB: $671.85
UTG: $952.80
MP: $878
CO: $675
BTN: $2,026.70

Pre-Flop: A:heart: A:spade: dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG raises to $18, MP raises to $63, CO calls $63, BTN folds, Hero raises to $240, 2 folds, MP calls $177, CO folds

Flop: ($567) 5:heart: 5:diamond: 5:club: (2 Players)
Hero bets $363 and is All-In

MP has requested TIME
Hero: fold
Hero: AA

MP calls $363

Turn: ($1,293) K:diamond: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($1,293) 7:heart: (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $1,293 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero showed A:heart: A:spade: (a full house, Fives full of Aces) and WON $1,290 (+$687 NET)
MP showed K:heart: A:club: (a full house, Fives full of Kings) and LOST (-$603 NET)

looooool

haha, that last one is awesome!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zook

Fnord: What's your strategy for evaluating your small pot play? I guess I could try to look at top 20 winners and losers... I usually play relatively short sessions (600-1000 hands) so that would get me all the medium pots at least...

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PT3 FTW.

I look a lot at spots. Isolating limpers, 3-betting various opens, raising the button, check/raising vs flatting c-bets, etc. for groupings of hands to see what's making me monies and what's not. Because of the small sample size I will sometimes throw out big pots when looking at those spots because they introduce a lot of noise. Also, for blind defense you need to count your blind as sunk cost so losing less than your blind is profit.

I've probably become whee bit too much of a station in big pots, but I try hard not to worry about it and I never ever let a big re-raise that ran into a hand get to me until after the session is over.

Unless I'm against the fish, I beleive the game is won and lost over imposing my will on my opponents and effective counter-punching. Even against the fish I'd rather just run them over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fnord

Also, for blind defense you need to count your blind as sunk cost so losing less than your blind is profit.

---

I like to look at "without posting blind" column in positional stats in PT and PT3. I figure in the green in that column is good (I'm happy to say I'm fairly strong there). On the right track there?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cardsman1992

I like to look at "without posting blind" column in positional stats in PT and PT3. I figure in the green in that column is good (I'm happy to say I'm fairly strong there). On the right track there?

---

It means you don't totally fail.

Wowwowowwow. I don't think I've ever run as bad in a single session as I did this morning. Standard aces cracked in a 3bet pot, a couple of pre-flop AI coolers, but there was also this beauty. I didn't feel tilted at all during the session... in fact I was just laughing at the absurdity of poker. I think I only tilt when I'm getting outplayed or run over. Of course it helped that there were only two 5/10 tables running so all of this happened at 2/4 and 3/6.

Playing Back at Squeezers

I've been experimenting with shoving over squeezes recently instead of 4betting small like I do over 3bets. If you 4bet small over a squeeze and get shoved on you're getting a better price than if you do it over a 3bet, so it's less often correct to fold. Plus I think villains are more likely to semibluff 5bet if the pot is already bloated like it is in squeezed pots. Here are a few examples from today...

1. SB is a loose passive fish, BB is a frequent 3bettor.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $6.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG) ($615.00)
MP ($600.00)
Button ($650.20)
SB ($920.90)
BB ($600.00)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
Hero raises to $21.00, 2 folds, SB calls $18.00, BB raises to $84.00, Hero raises to $615.00 (All-In), 2 folds

2. CO is a loose passive fish, button is a frequent 3bettor.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($406.00)
UTG ($459.95)
Hero (MP) ($425.60)
CO ($359.50)
Button ($827.80)
SB ($402.00)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
1 fold, Hero raises to $14.00, CO calls $14.00, Button raises to $60.00, 2 folds, Hero raises to $425.60 (All-In), 2 folds

3. Button is a loose passive fish, SB is a frequent 3bettor (see a pattern?). SB tanked before calling so if I might even have FE vs. a hand this good.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP) ($400.30)
CO ($461.00)
Button ($1126.10)
SB ($506.00)
BB ($556.40)
UTG ($394.00)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
1 fold, Hero raises to $14.00, 1 fold, Button calls $14.00, SB raises to $72.00, 1 fold, Hero raises to $400.30 (All-In), 1 fold, SB calls $328.30

Flop: ($818.60) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($818.60) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($818.60) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $818.60 | Rake: $3.00

Results below:
SB had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (one pair, Aces)
Hero had 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (one pair, twos)
Outcome: SB won $815.60

Thoughts welcome.

Almost forgot, I induced another all-in call in chat today! Not as big a brag as yesterday because it was from AQ on a QTxT board but again I typed "fold" "I have a ten" when he was timebanking and he snapped :) I recommmend trying it vs. fish, it has to be the best thing I've ever done in poker.

LoL, the funny thing is that I think that tell is backwards.

If I'm facing a close decision, anything typed in chat tilts it towards being a stronger hand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fnord

LoL, the funny thing is that I think that tell is backwards.

If I'm facing a close decision, anything typed in chat tilts it towards being a stronger hand.

---

This is what I've always assumed too so it should probably only be tried against fish...

good thoughts on countering light squeezers

Clawed back to $350 short of even this afternoon, thanks to a megadonk at two deep 5/10 tables. I kept thinking about how nice it would be to finish the day in the green after the horrible morning I had, but since reading Tommy Angelo's book I've been trying to improve my quitting decisions. My current quitting strategy is to start evaluating the quality of my game and tables ~90 minutes into the session. If my tables are average and I'm up or down a large amount, I quit. Idea being that if I'm up a lot I want to book a big win and if I'm down a lot there's almost no chance I'll get unstuck before I get tired and stop playing my best. If my tables are above average then I'll keep playing until I notice myself spewing or losing focus. Every 10 minutes or so my table and game standards increase so that for me to be playing over 2 hours my tables and game have to be damn good. That rarely happens. So this afternoon it was about an hour and forty minutes into my session and the megadonk busted on both 5/10 tables. I looked around, my other 3 tables were ok, not great, so I quit.

If you haven't read Tommy Angelo's Elements of Poker I recommend it. I guess I'd call it a poker psychology book, but there's a little bit of strategy, a little bit of etiquette, a little bit of everything thrown in. Here's a review thread I started a while ago:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...lo-t69566.html

I like the Barry Greenstein approach to session management.

When the game is bad, I'm tired, getting pwned, etc. I quit.
If I'm stuck in a good game, I try to win half of it back.
If I'm ahead in a good game, I try to give half of it back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fnord

LoL, the funny thing is that I think that tell is backwards.

If I'm facing a close decision, anything typed in chat tilts it towards being a stronger hand.

---

the way i've always thought it is best done is that you can chat to regs to induce a fold, especially if you don't have much history

with fish a line or two might get them to call, especially if you say something if they are tanking

Usually when I chat I get folds too....

Had a crappy session this morning... went 0 for 3 in flips and lost a couple of 35/65's for stacks. Made one good laydown with the 2nd nut straight on the river though I think. And I like how I played this hand:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($345.40)
BB ($190.40)
UTG ($400.00)
MP ($984.70)
Hero (CO) ($423.70)
Button ($416.10)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
2 folds, Hero raises to $14.00, Button calls $14.00, 2 folds

Flop: ($34.00) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $25.00, Hero calls $25.00

Turn: ($84.00) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $62.00, Hero calls $62.00

River: ($208.00) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $148.00, Hero raises to $322.70 (All-In), Button calls $167.10 (All-In)

Total pot: $838.20 | Rake: $3.00

Results in white below:
Button had Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (flush, Queen high)
Hero had 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (full house, sevens over eights)
Outcome: Hero won $835.20

Out of curiosity, what do you put a pre-flop raiser on when he check/calls this kind of flop? Or a 973 rainbow? Or a 862 two-tone? I'm unsure of my best line when oop with initiative and medium-strength but vulnerable hands. I feel like betting turns them into bluffs to some extent and these boards are great for opponents to bluff raise. I've been check/calling more, which obviously allows opponents to outdraw, but I think they're unlikely to bluff turn overcards because they're still in my range. Thoughts?

I'm out of town this weekend, hovering around even for the month at pokerz, looking forward to grinding some profits next week...

Finally had a nice, easy session this morning where I ran hot, didn't have too many difficult decisions and won lots of monies. It would be nice if the rest of the week went the same way.

One hand of interest... villain was running 16/13/3.5 and although we'd been sitting at a couple of tables together this was the first hand we played together. I'd been active pre-flop but hadn't shown much down. This flop is a good one to c/r bluff and for that reason there's no way I'm folding the flop or turn. The river is interesting... I think AJ is the worst hand he's valuebetting here, but his 1/2 pot bet sizing didn't smell like a set/boat this deep and I figured his bluff % is not 0 here. Still not convinced it's a good call, but I'm a station :)

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($1889.00)
SB ($6452.75)
BB ($1795.00)
UTG ($954.00)
MP ($2000.00)
CO ($1294.00)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
3 folds, Hero raises to $35.00, 1 fold, BB calls $25.00

Flop: ($75.00) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $60.00, BB raises to $166.00, Hero calls $106.00

Turn: ($407.00) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets $222.00, Hero calls $222.00

River: ($851.00) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
BB bets $465.00, Hero calls $465.00

Total pot: $1781.00 | Rake: $3.00

Results below:
Hero had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (two pair, Jacks and sevens)
BB had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (two pair, Jacks and sevens)
Outcome: Hero won $889.00, BB won $889.00

Seems like a pretty thin value bet. He has to put you on a fairly weak range to get 3 streets incl check/raise off you and still be good. Then again the fact you considered laying it down makes it seem like maybe its a good line. Strange hand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zook

Out of curiosity, what do you put a pre-flop raiser on when he check/calls this kind of flop? Or a 973 rainbow? Or a 862 two-tone? I'm unsure of my best line when oop with initiative and medium-strength but vulnerable hands. I feel like betting turns them into bluffs to some extent and these boards are great for opponents to bluff raise. I've been check/calling more, which obviously allows opponents to outdraw, but I think they're unlikely to bluff turn overcards because they're still in my range. Thoughts?

I'm out of town this weekend, hovering around even for the month at pokerz, looking forward to grinding some profits next week...

---

if im opp here and lets say you check a T95 2 tone flop id assume you have nothing. if you check a A63 flop ill assume you have strength.

now i think the flops you mention are right in the middle, on 887r,973r,862 2t flops i think we get floated alot more than usual and by alot of very different holdings. so i dont mind c/c flop at all since the pot is smaller when they bet (assuming they bet turn if they float), ur range is v wide, they prob dont know what to do on turn, they will bet tons of their range on flop. ofc hero c/b'ing flop will find it toughish to play a turn tho its likely we double barrel alot which has good and bad points in general.

Ive tried a few c/c flop moves OOP and i always have some trouble playing the turn. ie i think opp cud still be bluffing me or is he VBing me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zook

Finally had a nice, easy session this morning where I ran hot, didn't have too many difficult decisions and won lots of monies. It would be nice if the rest of the week went the same way.

One hand of interest... villain was running 16/13/3.5 and although we'd been sitting at a couple of tables together this was the first hand we played together. I'd been active pre-flop but hadn't shown much down. This flop is a good one to c/r bluff and for that reason there's no way I'm folding the flop or turn. The river is interesting... I think AJ is the worst hand he's valuebetting here, but his 1/2 pot bet sizing didn't smell like a set/boat this deep and I figured his bluff % is not 0 here. Still not convinced it's a good call, but I'm a station :)

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($1889.00)
SB ($6452.75)
BB ($1795.00)
UTG ($954.00)
MP ($2000.00)
CO ($1294.00)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
3 folds, Hero raises to $35.00, 1 fold, BB calls $25.00

Flop: ($75.00) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $60.00, BB raises to $166.00, Hero calls $106.00

Turn: ($407.00) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
BB bets $222.00, Hero calls $222.00

River: ($851.00) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
BB bets $465.00, Hero calls $465.00

Total pot: $1781.00 | Rake: $3.00

Results below:
Hero had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (two pair, Jacks and sevens)
BB had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (two pair, Jacks and sevens)
Outcome: Hero won $889.00, BB won $889.00

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Im always thinking though about how bad some players can be and how bad the bets they make could be. a 16/13 player is a bad player tho they know the ABC style of play however I beleive that they do still suck alot.

i like you call on river since i think the 7 card is actually a good card for you since it cuts down alot on the sets he may have. and i think his river bets sizing is slightly timid that he cud do this with JT+ or AIR. Ofc JT+ may not play this way but I do think poor player do weird shit alot of the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zook

Out of curiosity, what do you put a pre-flop raiser on when he check/calls this kind of flop? Or a 973 rainbow? Or a 862 two-tone? I'm unsure of my best line when oop with initiative and medium-strength but vulnerable hands. I feel like betting turns them into bluffs to some extent and these boards are great for opponents to bluff raise. I've been check/calling more, which obviously allows opponents to outdraw, but I think they're unlikely to bluff turn overcards because they're still in my range. Thoughts?

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I feel this is really history dependant. Basically if I feel like I've been picking on a guys cbets a lot and making life difficult for him on the flop when I have position then I will be expecting him to a) start check/folding the flop a lot more as the PFR and b) go for a check/raise or check/call the next time he flops a hand with decent strength (TPGK+) and I will readjust using those assumptions. If I don't feel there is much history between me and a villain who decided to raise preflop and c/c a flop out of the blue then I'm usually putting him on a medium strength hand and I will often fire multiple barrels as a bluff.

Also I agree with your analysis a lot and I think that check/calling with mid strength hands does have merit. It's a rather hard line to balance (and we do need to balance because our perceived range is rather fuzzy) though because we're OOP, are playing without the initiative and are denying ourselves opportunities to gain information about the strength of our opponents range. Hence when we balance with bluffs we get owned more and when we balance with strength we miss value.

Great replies DG and Irish, thanks.

DG: Funny you think 16/13's are generally bad players... I don't play with many but that's not my immediate assumption. I don't think his play is terrible but the river is probably too thin.

Irish: Interesting point about balance. Honestly I'm not sure these spots come up frequently enough to worry about it, but I should take notes just in case. I will occasionally c/c overcards on these types of boards but almost never with overpairs. I usually auto bet/bet/bet overpairs but on really dry boards there might be more value in c/c'ing or at least enough value to feel ok balancing.

well i dont mean bad as in totally terrible. i guess wot i mean is they are poor. plus im probably tlaking about these players at 100-200nl. whether they change much compared to your stakes i dunno.

I wasn't arguing, I just hadn't really thought about it. I see a few at 400nl and they aren't the players I worry about and I see so few of them at 1000nl I'm just not sure what to make of them at that level. I can't imagine pre-flop tightness (of 4-5%) can be a very big leak, but I wonder if it's usually accompanied by post-flop leaks as you're suggesting...

Played a very short session this morning, even by my standards, only 372 hands. I quit b/c I was up a bunch, a couple of fish left and I really had to pee. I'll put a longer session in later today I think.

A couple of interesting hands from this morning though...

1. Losing the leveling war with a reg. My history with this guy has gone from I 3bet him a ton and he always folds to he 4bets me a decent amount and I almost always fold. So now I'm ready to 5bet bluff him. But he snapped AQo (yeah, I guess some regs do that griffey & Alexos). Thankfully I still have 41% equity and I sucked out.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($889.35)
Button ($400.00)
SB ($638.20)
Hero (BB) ($406.00)
UTG ($400.00)
MP ($400.00)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
3 folds, Button raises to $14.00, 1 fold, Hero raises to $48.00, Button raises to $116.00, Hero raises to $406.00 (All-In), Button calls $284.00 (All-In)

Flop: ($802.00) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($802.00) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($802.00) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $802.00 | Rake: $3.00

Results below:
Button had Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (two pair, Queens and sixes)
Hero had 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (full house, sixes over fives)
Outcome: Hero won $799.00

2. Why datamining is pure gold Jerry. Villain was running 48/28/4. This was my first hand at the table and his last :D

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $6.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($609.00)
MP ($1174.50)
Button ($497.00)
SB ($600.00)
Hero (BB) ($600.00)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
2 folds, Button raises to $12.00, 1 fold, Hero calls $6.00

Flop: ($27.00) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $6.00, Hero calls $6.00

Turn: ($39.00) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $6.00, Hero calls $6.00

River: ($51.00) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $473.00 (All-In), Hero calls $473.00

Total pot: $997.00 | Rake: $3.00

Results below:
Button had 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (one pair, Aces)
Hero had 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (three of a kind, Aces)
Outcome: Hero won $994.00

im not arguing zook :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zook

Flop: ($34.00) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $25.00, Hero calls $25.00


Out of curiosity, what do you put a pre-flop raiser on when he check/calls this kind of flop?

Missed overs maybe 70%, monsters 10%, draws 10%, mid and small pairs 5%, random crap 5%

Or a 973 rainbow?

Similar range but a little more weight to a str8 draw if he's capable of raising sooted gappers, etc...and a little less weight to missed overs because they would likely cbet.

Or a 862 two-tone?

More like 30% draws here, except for the combo draws that would bet. Drop monsters and missed overs down a bit to compensate..

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I may be way off though...[/b]

Thanks cman... I think most regs in my games are cbetting draws of any kind, but other than that I agree.

Nice recent bump in your BR, get yo ass to 1/2!

Really happy with my afternoon session. Very quickly I was down $2k despite playing solidly. I stayed focused, waited for cards against the fish and won it all back with interest. Really no interesting hands to post. I shoved T9s from the button vs. a light squeezer in the BB, he snapped AKo and held. Not sure how much I have to do this before I start shoving QQ+ for value over squeezes but I'll probably start soon.

since you said it to me im seriously thinking of mixing some 200nl into my sessions. coming up to 5k now and confident.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zook

Honestly I'm not sure these spots come up frequently enough to worry about it,

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idk about this. I think it's pretty difficult to adjust to people who play the flop well without doing a decent bit of check/calling as the PFR. I agree with the rest of what you wrote here also.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Da GOAT

since you said it to me im seriously thinking of mixing some 200nl into my sessions. coming up to 5k now and confident.

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Doooo it. GL and nothing wrong with tightening up a little pre-flop when you're taking shots.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zook

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Da GOAT

since you said it to me im seriously thinking of mixing some 200nl into my sessions. coming up to 5k now and confident.

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Doooo it. GL and nothing wrong with tightening up a little pre-flop when you're taking shots.

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Thanks man for the vote of confidence, ill start checking if the tables are good or mine some sites too.

August is finally coming together for me in its last week. A few big hands from today...

1. Villain is a tagg regular I don't have a ton of history with.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $6.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($1194.60)
SB ($1673.40)
BB ($1200.00)
UTG ($1182.00)
MP ($734.60)
CO ($1215.45)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
3 folds, Hero raises to $21.00, SB raises to $69.00, 1 fold, Hero calls $48.00

Pre-flop call is marginal, but I'm on the button and have position so meh.

Flop: ($144.00) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
SB bets $110.00, Hero calls $110.00

I float this flop with a gutshot b/c even though it hits his range hard he's cbetting it 100% so I think I can take it away on the turn a fair amount. Of course if he's good he's double-barreling this board a ton, but this flop hits my range too so a lot of regs give up after firing one barrel.

Turn: ($364.00) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $282.00, SB raises to $1494.40 (All-In), Hero calls $733.60 (All-In)

This is just such a horrible play by villain. He can't put me on a strong hand after flatting the flop, just draws, weak aces and maybe K's. Almost every draw comes in on the turn so my betting range couldn't be more polarized. He c/shoves the turn guaranteeing that worse hands fold and better hands call. If he thinks I'm bluffing this turn a fair amount, c/c is so much better.

River: ($2395.20) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $2395.20 | Rake: $3.00

Results in below:
Hero had Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (straight, Ace high)
SB had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (two pair, Aces and Queens)
Outcome: Hero won $2392.20

Lucky hand for me, great example from villain of how not to play a tpgk hand 200bb deep.

2. Villain is an aggro donk. I think one part of my game that's improving is incorporating some passivity and letting aggro players bluff and valuetown themselves. At these stakes even a lot of bad players don't fall for the river check to induce bluffs with missed draws so I went for the two street version.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($2307.20)
SB ($1124.00)
Hero (BB) ($1100.00)
UTG ($941.00)
MP ($1042.00)
CO ($1010.00)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
3 folds, Button raises to $35.00, 1 fold, Hero raises to $120.00, Button calls $85.00

Flop: ($245.00) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $180.00, Button calls $180.00

Turn: ($605.00) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $230.00, Hero calls $230.00

River: ($1065.00) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $580.00, Hero calls $570.00 (All-In)

Total pot: $2205.00 | Rake: $3.00

Results in below:
Button had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (one pair, sixes)
Hero had Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (two pair, Kings and sixes)
Outcome: Hero won $2202.00

3. And my spewy hand of the day. Villain is a regular and we've built up a decent amount of distrust, but the river is still a fold. He is good enough to turn a lower pp into a bluff here but I'd have to put him on something so unlikely to fold that it doesn't make a lot of sense for him to do it.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $10.00 BB (4 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($1151.00)
Hero (Button) ($1224.00)
SB ($2534.00)
BB ($1000.00)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
1 fold, Hero raises to $30.00, 1 fold, BB calls $20.00

Flop: ($65.00) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $50.00, BB calls $50.00

Turn: ($165.00) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $120.00, BB calls $120.00

River: ($405.00) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $300.00, BB raises to $800.00 (All-In), Hero calls $500.00

Total pot: $2005.00 | Rake: $2.00

Results in below:
Hero had 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (two pair, nines and fours)
BB had 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (full house, fours over threes)
Outcome: BB won $2003.00

I'm fairly sure that last one is best to check behind. Hard to see many hands calling 3 streets that you're ahead of there. FTR converter doesnt seem to recognize quads :p