Please comment on how I played this hand

I haven't had quads in a while (think I had them once before) did I extract the right money from this? thanks -

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB (t2395)
Hero (t1500)
UTG (t2070)
UTG+1 (t1410)
MP1 (t1430)
MP2 (t3010)
MP3 (t2720)
CO (t2070)
Button (t1405)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
UTG calls t30, 4 folds, CO calls t30, Button calls t30, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t150) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, CO checks, Button bets t90, SB folds, Hero calls t90, UTG folds, CO folds.

Turn: (t330) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets t150, Hero raises to t300, Button calls t150.

River: (t930) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets t300, Button calls t300.

Final Pot: t1530

Since you've changed your tune over the past week or so I suppose I'll supply my retort...

Villain is a donk-fish calling the c/r turn and river, especially with a paired up board but we'll take it. I would have shoved the river since he probably would have called anything. Still a good bet on the river.

Ok, will have a look, but before I comment on the hand two things:
1) I posted this thing which is probably relevant to the direction the question goes: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ts-t74733.html
2) Since your opponent isn't all-in with your quads it could be argued that you're not extracting maximum value. But as seen in point 1, maybe asking if you extract max value is the wrong question to ask?

Preflop I think is ok. If you were to raise it you would have to start considering commitment and a low pair isn't good enough for that. You can fit or fold here easily.
For the flop I like a lead out. Any queen will come along and if noone has a queen you won't be paid anyway. As played I also like a check-raise with similar argument. You're looking for a betting sequence that will get all the chips in the middle.
Turn check/raise is the right idea, but the min-raise is counterproductive imo. The effective stack behind is t1285 and if you want the rest to go in on the river (and you do) you'd like the stack behind to be about t800 or so with a stack above t1000 to make the all-in more callable. This suggests a raise to t450 which is almost as callable as the raise to t300. This would make the river pot t1230 with t835 behind - here you then push all-in and get called.
As played the river bet is just too small. Even as played you can shove the river - there's only t985 behind which is only a slight overbet. I think you were trying to partly get value from your bet and in part hoping he'd raise you all-in. If so, you're overthinking it. Play it more straightforward imo.

Look at it this way - on the river if you bet t985 he will fold 50% of the time and call 50% of the time. If you bet t300 he'll call 100% of the time and never raise. The chips already in the pot are yours either way. Your gain from shoving is average t492.5. Your gain from a t300 bet is t300. It's more profitable to shove (assuming my assumptions are near true).

If you want to make it complicated for yourself you can start saying that sometimes he shoves all-in if you weak bet, and the two counters are that sometimes he folds - and his shoving is probably less likely than you HOPE. Your estimates need to be realistic. At this time he's SCARED of what you have and happy to see a cheap showdown, no? Especially if he has a naked queen like QT. The bigger bets on earlier streets can make it so he'll have to call the river shove even if he thinks he might be behind.

bet preflop [there are also arguments for just checking], bet flop, bet turn, bet river


no sense in slowplaying the nuts.


One thing you shouldn't do is

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LuckySlevin

Hero checks, Button bets t150, Hero raises to t300, Button calls t150.

---

this. Don't minraise late street bets.

Disclaimer, this is me asking for advice, in the form of advice.

First off, NH Slevin, nice quads.
Ok, the way my fishy fish ass see's it is this. There's no other 5's out there, so there's no Opponent that isn't afraid of you having a 5 especially on the BB. So I'm probably folding everything but pocket queens and Kx of spades to your(in my opinion) obvious c/c -c/r. And as far as the river, unless villain has Kx of spades he's super worried that you have it (since you waited until the river to open) and will only call with his lesser flush(again what the hell do I know?)
My line might be (if i'm wrong PLEASE correct me, as I DON'T know how to bet this most profitably)
Hope with all my little heart that some donk tried to slow pay Q's preflop. Or hope that someone had a couple of spades they would be willing to call down with.

Check pre
Bet but pretty much give odds on flop (for the spade draw)
" " same on turn, give odds.
Bet pot on river and look for a reraise since they caught it.( would this be right guys?)

EDIT: This line (as intended) might work for someone with a Q but obviously don't look for a raise on the river

i wouldnt bother raising preflop, checking is fine. But dont slowplay even though its very tempting, just bet bet bet.

Wow erpel, you just took what I said and gave the best damn explanation possible. So what the hell did villain have anyway? I really doubt he had anything better than QJ/QT with limp behind on the button.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wellrounded08

Disclaimer, this is me asking for advice, in the form of advice.

First off, NH Slevin, nice quads.
Ok, the way my fishy fish ass see's it is this. There's no other 5's out there, so there's no Opponent that isn't afraid of you having a 5 especially on the BB. So I'm probably folding everything but pocket queens and Kx of spades to your(in my opinion) obvious c/c -c/r. And as far as the river, unless villain has Kx of spades he's super worried that you have it (since you waited until the river to open) and will only call with his lesser flush(again what the hell do I know?)
My line might be (if i'm wrong PLEASE correct me, as I DON'T know how to bet this most profitably)
Hope with all my little heart that some donk tried to slow pay Q's preflop. Or hope that someone had a couple of spades they would be willing to call down with.

Check pre
Bet but pretty much give odds on flop (for the spade draw)
" " same on turn, give odds.
Bet pot on river and look for a reraise since they caught it.( would this be right guys?)

EDIT: This line (as intended) might work for someone with a Q but obviously don't look for a raise on the river

---

Couple things:

Flop is Q55 - what does this mean? It means that instead of 3 card denominations that can have made a pair for someone there are only 2. Instead of 9 cards that can be in someone's hand and have hit the board for a pair there are only 5. That means everyone in this hand is LESS likely to have hit any part of the board. A paired board (especially with a single high card and two low) is often described as a bluffing board for this reason - it MISSES a lot of people.

Second part: Two fives are on the board - that leaves two fives not on the board. If a single five is on the board there are 3 fives that can be in hand combinations and pair the board - if there are two fives on board there are only two that someone can hold. Everyone is LESS likely to be holding a 5 because the board is paired. Unfortunately you're in the BB and checked so any 5 you could hold you still can - if you had raised a lot of J5 and similar hands would just not be possible and he could rule them out for you - but conversely in this case you could also have J6 type hands (that pair the turn) - they are in fact much more likely than any hand with a 5.

If you think someone has to have a 5 here there's only a short time until someone comes and tells you you are suffering from MUBs. Yep, that's Monsters Under the Bed.

Any single queen feels GOOD here - you have top pair, and it's unlikely anyone else has a piece of the board.

When Hero checks preflop and check/calls the flop bet he might have two spades, any pocket pair, any queen all the way down to Q2o. Any of these hands (including spade hands with 6s) can do the check/raise on the turn. Especially consider that villains turn bet is small - maybe Hero thinks it's weakness and tries to push him off his 'air'?

I think the villain will stack off with many queens, and even more if the check/raise on the turn had been a bit bigger so he is more thoroughly committed by the river.

Ok, you say to bet to GIVE ODDS to drawing hands on the flop. I understand you - it's a variant on slowplaying. Don't do it. Check my thread on why you play the nuts again please. You have to play your hand in a way that looks like you are trying to price out draws - bet strongly to make your hand look VULNERABLE - and keep him in. Big bets don't want calls, do they? This will also make pure bluffy cbets on similar boards more profitable when he's seen you play quads as if it was air.

Wow, thanks for telling how many places I was way off.(really, thanks that's exactly what I was looking for.)

One question however, what's the BI to this tourny? The reason I ask is this, really low BI,=(I think) less competant players. not all morons obviously, just less solid players. And if that's the case, then there are more players who are afraid of MUB :wink: in a situation like this. for several reasons I say this:
1) If it a freeroll/ really cheap BI tourny, there's less solid players in general
2)It's early so those weak players are still around.
3)People not wanting to bust out early, playing conservative. They will be more likely to be on the watch for these kinds of hands (so looking to play with Q's or Spades only.

Don't even listen any more slev, this is just a continuation of my wrong thought process that i'm trying to work out.

EDIT: I do however see what your saying about the bet sizing, that I hear loud and clear, and it makes 100% sense.

I think Slevin ran out of bankroll so I this would be a freeroll or play money tournament.

I tore into you because I knew you wanted me to :)

There's a fine balance between adjusting to playing against weak players and playing badly because weak players are letting you get away with it. As I posted in Slevin's operation today about play money: "The fact that no money is at stake does not mean that there isn't a right and a wrong decision in each situation. Know which is which." The same logic applies for playing against idiots.

Got it, keep it +EV no matter what... That's dicipline thing I gotta work on... What a fish...<--me.

its quads..i mean..i dno

Don't min raise turn, don't shitty bet river, your aim should be trying to get this all in.

I don't mind the flop call given how many people are still in, and it's nice to let the flush draws catch up cheap. But by the turn you've gotta be thinking about getting it in, and the minraise doesn't do that, and the 1/3 river bet certainly doesn't.

Pop turn up to like 500ish which makes the river an easier shove

id say:

BET, BET, BET...

thats the easiest way of getting it all in there...if nobody had the Q or the flush draw, you werent going to get much more money, so just bet it every street.

PS: the way the hand developed i think you would have won all his chips playing agressively straightforward.

check call flop, raise turn a little more, shove river.