Hand Advice

Ok first off, I'm sure it's no big deal, but I'm probably going to continue (almost daily, at least a couple times a week) to have Hand Advice threads until narrow down the range of hands I need help on(the hands I still cant see where I went wrong.) Anyway if anybody doesn't care to look, I'll make sure to put "Hand Advice" in the tilte, and you can just stay clear of my fish ass. :wink:

*EDIT: I'll always try and put stuff in bold and use the card avitars so it's realitivly easy to read, as well as put my comments in red.
**EDIT X2 lol...:Don't think I'm just trying to play and post my hands and get better, I'm constantly putting forth hours of play/hours of reading FTR Threads-Robbs several, MORE than helpful threads right now, as well as the different threads he links to regularly. Which is why I would appreciate constant feedback and input on my game play so that I can learn more than "What to do exactly here" but more importantly, get an insight into the mindset and basis for the decisions I'll constantly find myself faced with. Quite simply I'm going to ask WHY? alot, or look for the WHY in the replies.

Here's a couple hands I'll comment on,post, and take the advice, ask quesions where I have them. Thanks ahead for any replies.

Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - (This is my first Hand at the table.)
Seat 2: Rounded08 ($5 in chips)
Seat 5: srammars ($2.91 in chips)
nofxrufus: posts small blind $0.01
Rounded08: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Rounded08 [:Jc: :6c:]
mikesolano64: folds
srammars: calls $0.02
b4ti: calls $0.02
Swistak123: folds
kbolton: calls $0.02
nofxrufus: calls $0.01
Rounded08: checks
*** FLOP *** [:6s: :9d: :Jd:]
nofxrufus: checks
Rounded08: bets $0.10
srammars: raises $0.76 to $0.86
b4ti: folds
kbolton: folds
nofxrufus: folds
Rounded08: raises $2.22 to $3.08
---(I thought about trips. I had read just before my session about being willing to AI flop with 9+outs. This weighed on my decision as I thought perhaps the flush draw. I considered two things: an FTR quote echoed in my mind "Get the chips in when you have the best hand" and also, I considered if that was his hand I still had the redraw, decreasing the amount of outs he had as well. Please, comment on my thought process)
srammars: calls $2.03 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($0.19) returned to Rounded08
*** TURN *** [:5h:]
*** RIVER *** [:Js:]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Rounded08: shows [:Jc: :6c:] (a full house, Jacks full of Sixes)
Seat 5: srammars mucked [:8d: :7d:]
Rounded08 collected $5.63 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5.88 | Rake $0.25
----I saw that he infact had the straight draw as well as the flush draw, and can see why he made the call. I beleive I did the same thing later on a flop, had an open ended straight draw and a flush draw. So did I "suckout?"



Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02)
Seat 1: Selene325 ($3.31 in chips)
Seat 2: Rounded08 ($4.89 in chips)
Seat 3: ErBola92 ($2.65 in chips)
Seat 4: WhatisMoney ($0.87 in chips)
Seat 5: cowtowndave ($4.98 in chips)
Seat 6: DrmCatcher ($3.18 in chips)
Seat 7: SMOLMA ($2.90 in chips)
Seat 8: sunnyly ($4.37 in chips)
cowtowndave: posts small blind $0.01
DrmCatcher: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Rounded08 [:Ad: :Qd:]
SMOLMA: folds
sunnyly: folds
Selene325: calls $0.02
Rounded08: raises $0.10 to $0.12
ErBola92: folds
WhatisMoney: folds
cowtowndave: folds
DrmCatcher: calls $0.10
Selene325: calls $0.10
*** FLOP *** [:Ah: :2c: :4s:]
DrmCatcher: bets $0.02
Selene325: calls $0.02
Rounded08: raises $0.06 to $0.08
DrmCatcher: calls $0.06
Selene325: calls $0.06
*** TURN *** [:Ts:]
DrmCatcher: bets $0.22
Selene325: folds
Rounded08: raises $0.38 to $0.60
DrmCatcher: calls $0.38
*** RIVER *** [:Ah: :2c: :4s: :Ts:] [:Th:]
StarBlueLigh joins the table at seat #9
DrmCatcher: bets $1
Rounded08: calls $1

First hand was played fine and plugging the hands and board in Pokerstove you got it in on the flop as a 51% favorite. So no you didn't suckout, but both of you got it in rather good. No way he is gonna fold the combo draw there. And I don't see you folding as only 11 hand combinations that beat you (3 combos of 99, 1 combo of 66, 1 combo of JJ and 6 combos of J9).

On hand 2 your flop raise size isn't good. The pot is something like $0.36ish on the flop and you raise a minbet to less than 25% of the pot. You should make it like $0.25c-$0.30 on the flop, maybe more like pot. Don't be fooled by the old raise a bet by 3-4x the original amount. That only holds if the original bet was a solid amount to begin with. If it's a min bet into this sized pot, just treat it like a check and bet a normal 2/3 - 3/4 - full pot amount. With that said I'm never gonna criticize anyone for getting it in with TP2K at 2nl. However, it would probably be best to call the turn and call the river, instead of raising the turn.

As a side note... 1) Don't put the results up in your hands. It can sometimes sway the advice and that's not good. (2) You should go check out the "ABCD theorem exercises" thread in the FR NLHE forum (http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es-t74388.html).

Read the ABCD theorem a few times and post questions till you understand it then post up a hand and analyze it in the exercises thread. That will help a lot. Especially after your hand gets critiqued.

Ok, several points/questions.

1) I took the results off the second hand and decided the my questions on the first hand obviously all about the flop bets, the results I just find interesting.

2) I plugged in some numbers on pokerstove and as you said I was 51-49 and just as an interesting fact. when I plugged in the hypothetical me having J9s my chances were in fact slightly lower that 50. Hmm maybe you know why?

3) I have read ABCD Theorem twice in fact. ( I will read it again) and I have somewhat seen it as more applicable to higher stakes 25nl maybe 10nl Or more inportantly, I can't figure it to be truly effective against an unknown opp. in 2nl. IE- in this example, because of the way some people play 2nl this particular unkown villain could have had A2o... and still made those bets.(you know what I mean? I can't assume that villains here have any sort of reasonable range-nor can I assume villain is putting me in any range whatsoever) Perhaps I am simply missing the point that you are making in your suggestion to read the theorem.

4)Exercises thread?Nevermind that. Sorry bout that Stax I shoulda clicked the link, I just assumed it was a direct link to the ABCD Theorem itself.

first, i agree with stacks on these hands. i love hand 1 but feel the flop in hand 2 should be raised a bit more. I.E, im not folding bottom pair to a raise of 6cents into a 46cent pot. Gotta at least raise 30 imo. No clue why j9s <j6s. Love some enlightenment on that.

abcd is highly useful imo, just hard to apply and really get into what it means. The abcd exercises thread stacks linked too is an attempt to get it implemented a bit more and show people how it can be applied. For instance, if villain can have A2o in this situation, then we figure that in when we consider our ABC ranges. An applicable example here, on the turn of hand 2, is AQ really in our A range where we want to be reraising for value, in our C range where we should be reraising more to push him off, or our B range where its better to just call? Hope that helps

I have no clue why J9s has lower equity than J6s on that board. It's still so close you felt either way, but that is wierd.

As far as the ABCD theorem, you have a good point. I remember when I played 2nl-10nl and it was quite hard, nearly impossible, to put most players on an accurate hand range. It's still hard at 50nl, as they still do alot of crazy shit. But you can still apply the ABCD theorem to your range and how you should play the hand.

Ok, I thought about posting this hand in the thread, but I think I'll wait. Give myself a litle more time to understand ABCD Theorem. I think it's only fair that I admit that I have not until tonight really began to understand it. And in the same breath I should say thanks for suggesting it again.

Now without putting it into the thread I would like to make sure I'm right on this point, When he bet the turn, I should have(as you said) called BECAUSE AQ then falls into the B range, call for pot control/deception. Call and re-evaluate. I can see now that my raise on the turn was basicaly pointless(I still had it in my A range, and that seems to be where 2nl gets a little bit tricky, when do you know when to move hands from your nut range?). And I should have DEFF. put A10 in his range...(DUHHHH) anyway. I invite more comments/replies.

I could probably talk about this for an hour right now because it's really unvailing itself to me.

I'll give a quick review of the AQ hand. I'm by no means an expert and will probably mess the hand up as I'm still trying to wrap my head around ABCD theorem as well (understand the concepts, but haven't put it all into practice enough yet). So just take my advice loosely, and hope a better player comes by and okays/corrects it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wellrounded08

Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02)
Seat 1: Selene325 ($3.31 in chips)
Seat 2: Rounded08 ($4.89 in chips)
Seat 3: ErBola92 ($2.65 in chips)
Seat 4: WhatisMoney ($0.87 in chips)
Seat 5: cowtowndave ($4.98 in chips)
Seat 6: DrmCatcher ($3.18 in chips)
Seat 7: SMOLMA ($2.90 in chips)
Seat 8: sunnyly ($4.37 in chips)
cowtowndave: posts small blind $0.01
DrmCatcher: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Rounded08 [:Ad: :Qd:]
SMOLMA: folds
sunnyly: folds
Selene325: calls $0.02
Rounded08: raises $0.10 to $0.12
ErBola92: folds
WhatisMoney: folds
cowtowndave: folds
DrmCatcher: calls $0.10
Selene325: calls $0.10
*** FLOP *** [:Ah: :2c: :4s:]
Range A - AA, AK, AQ, AJ, 22, 44 (hands I'm willing to build a pot with here. I don't include hands such as A2,A4, because I probably don't raise those preflop from your position)
Range B - 99-KK, Ax (I check these hands because it's generally a Way ahead/way behind situation (If they have the Ace when I have 99-KK Im drawing to 2 outs, and if they have a higher Ace or lower Ace I'm drawing thin still)
Range C - 33, 55-88 (I'm a little uncertain here. I think I'm raising hands like 33 and 55 as a semibluff as I have as many as 6 outs, with out gutshot + set. I think I'm betting 66-88 or so because i don't really feel comfortable checking behind here because there will be so many turn cards I hate. But i'm not sure if this range is even close to correct, so meh.)
Range D - air that we check and fold to aggressions (ex. KQ)

So given our hand it fits into range A so we put in a value bet here.
DrmCatcher: bets $0.02
Selene325: calls $0.02
Rounded08: raises $0.06 to $0.08
DrmCatcher: calls $0.06
Selene325: calls $0.06
*** TURN *** [:Ts:]
DrmCatcher: bets $0.22

*Note* - since we bet the flop I'll only have our Range A and Range C hands from the previous street here, as that's the only hands we have that would take that action.
Range A - AA, 22, 44 (we are still willing to felt these)
Range B - AK, AQ, AJ (These hands still have alot of showdown value and I can't see us tossing these to just a single bet here, so we call and re-evaluate on the river, possibly calling or folding)
Range C - I'm not bluff raising anything here.
Range D - 33, 55-88 (we didn't catch and now he has said he has a hand, so I will believe him and fold).

So given our range I would like a call here with AQ.

Selene325: folds
Rounded08: raises $0.38 to $0.60
DrmCatcher: calls $0.38
*** RIVER *** [:Ah: :2c: :4s: :Ts:] [:Th:]
StarBlueLigh joins the table at seat #9
DrmCatcher: bets $1

Since we only call on the turn I only have AK, AQ, AJ left in our range. I would say facing the river bet none are in our Range A. I believe all 3 are bordline on B and C. Range B beind a call and range C being a fold (i think?). Depending on reads/stats, and the size of this bet in relation to the pot (not sure the pot size here), I would probably call off with AK, AQ, and maybe fold AJ, but I'm not sure.
Rounded08: calls $1

---

Wow, thanks stax. You say your not sure But I think your right on
the money.<-- then agian... what the hell do I know?

That actually helped alot. This is great, I can actually start apply'n to my game. I think from now on my hand posts will be A) in the renton thread, or B) In the beginner thread with my ranges A-D written in red. I guess it depends on where I'm looking for help. If it's about what range to put what in it'll go in rentons if it's about more simple stuff, it'll go here.

Just thinking bad I may think that hands like pps TT and below might be best in range C because alot of turn cards are not gonna be pretty. So you would rather take it down, as you might have the best hand but it's vulnerable. However, as this is a 3-way pot, I'm not really liking a raise on the flop with those hands. So idk.

But good luck. I'll be glad to look at any hands and give me beginner advice.

about your second hand, here's a future tip; treat gay minbets on the flop like a check, if you planned on checking behind, just call, if you planned on cbetting big or small raise his gay bet up to whatever the ammount.

I think you have a tendency to bet and raise small, which isn't necessarily good, especially on drawy board where it's very possible you could be pricing the drawers in to hit.

Anyways, you didn't necessarily play any of the hands badly, I actually think Hand 1 is perfectly played by both of you and your hand won the race. Hand 2 is much more compicated, raise to around pot on flop (around 18/20c), then slowdown from there on out if he gets aggressive. I don't like that minraise on turn either, it really looks like an "I wanna see where i'm at" raise, i'd prolly flat for pot control, or if I feel like he's a crazy maniac I'd raise get it in...
(Yeah I'm kinda aggressive)

Commenting on ABCD theorem analysis in this hand. I'm also no more than a beginner.

Pre-flop the Hero is in the HJ position (2 off the button), which is a late position, suggesting a wider opening range. In this position I would consider opening Axs and suited connectors also. This suggests that on the flop A4s and A2s could be in the A range and 65s and 54s could be in the C range. Otherwise I'm pretty pleased with the flop ABCD ranges as stated. 88-66 is a funny case. I can see the case for check/folding it every street for a cheap showdown - bluffing it gives up that showdown value if the opponent has missed and continue to have missed the board. On the other hand we are betting enough hands on the flop that we can profitably bet a few more hands for pure fold equity. The hands that should be bet are probably hands with no showdown value, so we don't lose that showdown value if looked up on a bluff. I would suggest using hands like KQs and KJs in the C range instead of 88-66 and then move 88-66 down to D (I guess) as they can't stand a bet but do have showdown value.

On the turn we get a second spade. That means any double spade hand we've played just turned a flush draw.

When doing ABCD range analysis it's important to take into account 'what is' and not 'what should have been'. I find the present ranges pretty solid (if incomplete) IF the flop bet size had been appropriate. However, the flop bet size was so small that no hands were folded - it was effectively a check to everyone - and the range analysis on the turn should reflect that the flop checked through rather than was bet.

If the flop bet had been to $0.30 or so and called by DrmCatcher only (speculative - based on turn bet and fold it seems likely only DrmCatcher would have stayed in in the present case) and THEN bet 1/2 pot by DrmCatcher our ABCD ranges as described by Stacks are pretty close. I would put my speculative A4s and A2s hands in range B with As2s going into range A with the nut flush draw. In my C range with a semi-bluff raise I would have KsQs, KsJs, 6s5s, 55, 33, some of the time - very opponent/read dependent if this is profitable to raise. Given low bet sizes (like half pot) these hands can also call for implied odds. So in this case they would be calls.

For the river as played I agree that we don't have any hands in our A range or C range. We don't have equity to raise for value and we don't have any fold equity we can use to bluff with. The pot is $1.20 and the bet is $1 - it's a pretty big bet. The speculative C range hands I mentioned as calls for implied odds all failed to connect and now need to be folded - maybe all of AK, AQ and AJ are calls.

Couple additional comments:
wellrounded08 - before starting any new threads please please please look into hand converters. If you look at the bar on the left on FTR under Poker Tools you should find 'Hand Converter'. It has been known to be broken occasionally, in which case you can substitute using a site like weaktight.com.

Level 0/1 thinking:
Please note that the ABCD range analysis done in this thread is the lowest lowest level of thinking. Embrace this truth. We are practicing hand analysis techniques that allow us to play optimally LOOKING ONLY AT OUR OWN CARDS. This is not a goal - it is a stepping stone. We need to be able to make the right decisions based on the board and our cards before we can get any value out of making the right adjustments based on what we know of the opponent.

If we pay a lot of attention to what our opponent is playing and conclude with a high degree of accuracy what he is holding and how he will play it and we then go and play our hand in a way that is negative EV against his holding - it doesn't matter that we know what he has. Here we are focusing on making solidly profitable decisions based on what we DO have, and that needs to be the foundation that we use when inputting knowledge of our opponent.

As we get comfortable using ABCD ranges to describe our own hands, we need to start using ABCD ranges to describe the hand our opponent is holding based on his actions and it will make our hand reading much more accurate and powerful. Every hand that is shown down (whether we are in it or not) is an opportunity to assess the decision made by the opponent each step along the way - and if we compare it to what his ABCD ranges should be we can identify his leaks and ways that we can exploit them.

When reviewing each others hands it may be an idea to note based on the posted hand history if there is any part of the hand history that will cause us to take notes on either player or cause us to make play adjustments against either player. It can be an eye opener if I post a hand for discussion because I'm honestly lost in it, and then someone comments that I seem to cbet with air a lot on the flop and give up on turns, so playing against me he'd float a lot with air on the flop and bet into me on the turn expecting me to fold.