live play prep thread..

here is a situation i will come across in live 3/6 games frequently. no reads as i just sat in. but, here is my thought process, correct it as necessary please.

obv call pf. c/c flop with 6 players, i dont want to raise against villains that likely dont fold for one more bet with such a vulnerable overpair. i also dont like the coordination of this board in a limped pot. must i c/r here anyway?

turn...i wanted to raise here, but thought it best to just play this hand WA/WB since i now have no idea where i stand. 67 isnt likely since i have to 7's. i feel that big overpairs arent likely, but smallish ones are. but, the majority here has to be overcards and flush draws. so, again i choose to call because i dont want him to check the river to me, since i am likely not folding it now.

river card is meh. if he drew out with the river, so be it. i felt if he was bluffing, he would continue.

are there blatant weaknesses in the way i played it? it just feels so weak.

0.05/0.1 Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
Hero ($1.70)
UTG+1 ($1.34)
MP1 ($3.72)
MP2 ($3.21)
MP3 ($2.70)
CO ($3.38)
BTN ($0.45)
SB ($1.32)
BB ($5.00)

Pre-flop: (1.4 SB, 9 players) Hero is UTG :7d: :7s:
Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, BTN calls, 1 fold, BB checks

Flop: :3s: :3c: :4c: (6.4 SB, 6 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, CO calls, 1 fold, BB folds, Hero calls, MP1 folds

Turn: :5d: (4.7 BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, 1 fold, Hero calls

River: :jh: (6.7 BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls

Looks weak too ;) I have no reason to think we are behind on the turn unless he is sitting on A2/A3/43/44/55.

I'd probably donk bet the turn and fold if raised. Allowing him a free river card can be disastrous with that board. And if he has two overcards he might well call anyways getting the wrong odds.

raise flop, mp2 doesn't have a 3 or he'd try to slowplay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KoRnholio

Looks weak too ;) I have no reason to think we are behind on the turn unless he is sitting on A2/A3/43/44/55.

I'd probably donk bet the turn and fold if raised. Allowing him a free river card can be disastrous with that board. And if he has two overcards he might well call anyways getting the wrong odds.

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i just never knew what to do here and was sort of looking for a reason to fold....and never got one. i didnt want to lead the turn with 3 players and didnt think a raise had any value in it. just crappy out of me, thats for sure. oh well. thanks, guys.

i guess i need to be more aggressive in these spots, but i see passive players go into "call down" mode when they should turn on the jets when i take over. i just felt this was the best way to play it when i felt like if i took over i dont get better to fold, but shut down worse that may be firing.

bleh

LOL! I've played hundreds of thousands of these types of live multiway hands.

If this game is super passive, and will get checked thru, I'm leading flop. As you played this, I'm C/Ring every time. I can't give credit to original bettor, although the LP smooth call would make me think twice... but still C/Ring.

As played, though... this turn card if perfect for a C/R. You've got overs, gutter, and trip outs.

You played this waaay too weak. Again, if I knew LP would fire flop, I'm C/Ring every single time. If I fear check thru, I'm taking flop lead!

I've been reading a lot of posts here, and other forums, where everyone is soo afraid of the boogey-man. Take control of these types of pots, and make them fear YOU!

Limping UTG in a live play $3/6 game with a low PP is suicide.

The reason? Every other hand at 3/6 there is a raiser. The game is RARELY ever passive enough.

As played a check raise on the flop would thin the field, to 3 up or heads up. And a bet on the turn is going to let you know exactly where you stand.

You'll be able to release on the turn when you lead out and they pop you back. If they call, the jack is a check and depending on the player call or fold. The more likely he is to try to steal, the more likely you should call. If he's a rock, you fold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by socal1111

I've been reading a lot of posts here, and other forums, where everyone is soo afraid of the boogey-man. Take control of these types of pots, and make them fear YOU!

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i understand your point, but can you give some examples where we shouldnt be...mathematically?

seems we get told, with hands like these, that we overplayed them when we get called. we get told, "well, what better hand folds?" and, "what is worse that calls?" and, who wants to overplay such a vulnerable hand anyway?

is there either a debate we can start, or a passage to a book you can point me to, that would fill in what i am obviously missing? this is a classic example, imo, where i miss a good deal of value in LHE. and, to get better for 2/4+, i feel i need to be almost flawless here to scoop the BB's i will so desperately need.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Limping UTG in a live play $3/6 game with a low PP is suicide.

The reason? Every other hand at 3/6 there is a raiser. The game is RARELY ever passive enough.

As played a check raise on the flop would thin the field, to 3 up or heads up. And a bet on the turn is going to let you know exactly where you stand.

You'll be able to release on the turn when you lead out and they pop you back. If they call, the jack is a check and depending on the player call or fold. The more likely he is to try to steal, the more likely you should call. If he's a rock, you fold.

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WHAAAATTTT!!!!!!??????

Limping UTG in these games is EXACTLY what you should be doing! These live $3/6 games are NOT aggressive, and will be limped w/ AJ, AQ, even AK quite often. I play in live mid-limit games where I still hear, "I never win w/ AK. It's just a drawing hand. I'm never raising w/ it again."

In these loose, live games... LIMP EVERY TIME W/ 77 UTG... unless you hate chips.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

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Originally Posted by socal1111

I've been reading a lot of posts here, and other forums, where everyone is soo afraid of the boogey-man. Take control of these types of pots, and make them fear YOU!

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i understand your point, but can you give some examples where we shouldnt be...mathematically?

seems we get told, with hands like these, that we overplayed them when we get called. we get told, "well, what better hand folds?" and, "what is worse that calls?" and, who wants to overplay such a vulnerable hand anyway?

is there either a debate we can start, or a passage to a book you can point me to, that would fill in what i am obviously missing? this is a classic example, imo, where i miss a good deal of value in LHE. and, to get better for 2/4+, i feel i need to be almost flawless here to scoop the BB's i will so desperately need.

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The best book I've read, which deals w/ these loose live games, is Ed Miller SSHE. Read it over and over.

I agree w/ you that so many responses to questions here are WA/WB, which is true sometimes, but... is used as a crutch too often. In poker, you're either ahead or behind, but that shouldn't always make us go into passive, calling station mode.

Scared, passive play is the worst thing we can do in the long-term. Sure, letting the LAG do the betting for us sometimes is a gr8 play... but this hand wasn't that time. You wern't c/cing to LAG, you just didn't know WHAT to do. We've all heard, "if it's worth a call, then raise!" These spots scream raise, even if you ARE beat. Raising here will make overs pay to peel... and you'll quickly find out where you are.

In these live games (w/ these paired boards), the original caller will very often spring into action after you C/R the flop, and 3-bet - BINGO... there's your trips hand.

Read SSHE. He explains how to make these loose live games a gold mine - THRU AGGRESSIVE PLAY!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by socal1111

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

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Originally Posted by socal1111

I've been reading a lot of posts here, and other forums, where everyone is soo afraid of the boogey-man. Take control of these types of pots, and make them fear YOU!

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i understand your point, but can you give some examples where we shouldnt be...mathematically?

seems we get told, with hands like these, that we overplayed them when we get called. we get told, "well, what better hand folds?" and, "what is worse that calls?" and, who wants to overplay such a vulnerable hand anyway?

is there either a debate we can start, or a passage to a book you can point me to, that would fill in what i am obviously missing? this is a classic example, imo, where i miss a good deal of value in LHE. and, to get better for 2/4+, i feel i need to be almost flawless here to scoop the BB's i will so desperately need.

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The best book I've read, which deals w/ these loose live games, is Ed Miller SSHE. Read it over and over.

I agree w/ you that so many responses to questions here are WA/WB, which is true sometimes, but... is used as a crutch too often. In poker, you're either ahead or behind, but that shouldn't always make us go into passive, calling station mode.

Scared, passive play is the worst thing we can do in the long-term. Sure, letting the LAG do the betting for us sometimes is a gr8 play... but this hand wasn't that time. You wern't c/cing to LAG, you just didn't know WHAT to do. We've all heard, "if it's worth a call, then raise!" These spots scream raise, even if you ARE beat. Raising here will make overs pay to peel... and you'll quickly find out where you are.

In these live games (w/ these paired boards), the original caller will very often spring into action after you C/R the flop, and 3-bet - BINGO... there's your trips hand.

Read SSHE. He explains how to make these loose live games a gold mine - THRU AGGRESSIVE PLAY!

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thank you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by socal1111

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Limping UTG in a live play $3/6 game with a low PP is suicide.

The reason? Every other hand at 3/6 there is a raiser. The game is RARELY ever passive enough.

As played a check raise on the flop would thin the field, to 3 up or heads up. And a bet on the turn is going to let you know exactly where you stand.

You'll be able to release on the turn when you lead out and they pop you back. If they call, the jack is a check and depending on the player call or fold. The more likely he is to try to steal, the more likely you should call. If he's a rock, you fold.

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WHAAAATTTT!!!!!!??????

Limping UTG in these games is EXACTLY what you should be doing! These live $3/6 games are NOT aggressive, and will be limped w/ AJ, AQ, even AK quite often. I play in live mid-limit games where I still hear, "I never win w/ AK. It's just a drawing hand. I'm never raising w/ it again."

In these loose, live games... LIMP EVERY TIME W/ 77 UTG... unless you hate chips.

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I guess the play is game dependent. If players are letting you get to the flop for one small bet from UTG with a PP without a raise often, go ahead and limp.

remember you need to make 10X what you tossed on the table to hunt a set here.

If you're being raised, that 10x is VERY hard to make if you limp, a few people fold, then someone raises and the BB calls, and you call.. In fact I would venture to say it's impossible.

--Edit, I just pulled out SSH and did some reading. Charts on Page 80.
As long as it's an action game after the flop. As long as there's lots of action 77 is the very minimun you can play with 3-5 players to the flop...

But if the game is tight, and aggressive PF with a passive PF feel, ie 2 or 3 players to every flop for 2 bets, followed by being a calling station to the river where they fold if they miss and bet if they hit ( the $3/6 game I play in) Then 77 is worthess utg.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ragnar4

--Edit, I just pulled out SSH and did some reading. Charts on Page 80. As long as it's an action game after the flop. As long as there's lots of action 77 is the very minimun you can play with 3-5 players to the flop...

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lol. hence the very reason i limped it. but, if i see a flop % >50, i limp 66, too. its a bit sac religious to open limp from UTG, but if Miller says so, who am i to dispute?

thing is...in MY live games, even if there is a raise, i have players going WAY too far and not folding. i see showdowns with 3-4 people in them routinely. a 15bb pot is nothing in these games. so much so, i will open limp/call a raise with AXs from any of the first 4-5 spots. i will limp sc's down to 78s from anywhere but UTG and UTG1, but 9Ts from anywhere. with AXs and sc's, i WANT a raise behind me somewhere. it helps me jam the flops i like. using his theories, you have to be very selective when playing this weak from this early. you have to be playing great flops only and folding a ton of "good looking" flops that you KNOW you cant do anything with in terms of protection because the they all call one or two bets about the same. bottom line is that in these games, a one pair hand isnt likely best by the river and these guys wont drop to standard signals of protection or by taking away their odds. therefore, if you have A6s UTG and limp/call, you cant do shit when the A flops w/o your suit and there's a bet and 3 callers after you check. but if you lead, no one with even mid pair, or AJ, will raise behind you. so, you kind of have to play your 5 outer and c/f a lot of turns.

this is all based on Miller's charts in SSHE. most times i am between the charts. not quite 3-5, but not quite 6-8.

the major difference between the games described in SSHE and the ubermicro stakes online is that online is still more aggro most times except at the very lowest levels....which is why you will see me prep for live play at 5/10c and below. 10/20c on stars is too aggro for using the whole of Miller's charts, imo, and its hard to play Miller's weaker portions post flop because the games are a bit more aggro there, too. very crushable, just a bit more aggro for the wicked loose games he describes.

Good god Chopper, I wish I could play at your 3/6 live game.. mine was waaay tight aggro. Only ever 2 fish at any table.. and no better games anywhere near.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Good god Chopper, I wish I could play at your 3/6 live game.. mine was waaay tight aggro. Only ever 2 fish at any table.. and no better games anywhere near.

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come to St Louis. our "boats" are full of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Good god Chopper, I wish I could play at your 3/6 live game.. mine was waaay tight aggro. Only ever 2 fish at any table.. and no better games anywhere near.

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LOL! I was about to ask where the heck you play if you're describing a tight 3/6 game.

Living in SoCal, all I see is: loose/action/fast/more action... uhhh... oh yeah... looser/faster/even more action!

Limping Axs utg is standard in the above games. Commerce's $9/18 game is the sickest / juiciest game under $20/40. It actually plays bigger than the 20/40 most times. 7 way capped prefop is routine!!!!!

In the hand given I would bet the flop and just gas it. As played I think it's fine. You can't isolate the flop with a raise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by socal1111

Limping Axs utg is standard in the above games. Commerce's $9/18 game is the sickest / juiciest game under $20/40. It actually plays bigger than the 20/40 most times. 7 way capped prefop is routine!!!!!

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Wow, I guess the 9/18 got better since I played it. The Hawaiian Garden 8/16 half kill is an amazing game with a smaller drop. Kill pots change the dynamic of the game so good.

If you can afford to play either game, you're far better off playing $5/$5 or $5/$10 NLHE though. The play is sooo terrible and you can exploit the shit out of people who leak too much information in ways you just can't do in limit poker.

one...i need to work with pstove more. should i 3bet this flop? i may get a free turn out of it if i do.

0.05/0.1 Limit Holdem
10 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($1.81)
UTG+1 ($1.97)
UTG+2 ($0.10)
MP1 ($1.32)
Hero ($1.95)
MP3 ($3.57)
CO ($8.03)
BTN ($2.50)
SB ($1.99)
BB ($0.33)

Pre-flop: (1.4 SB, 10 players) Hero is MP2 :kh: :tc:
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks

Flop: :qh: :js: :3c: (6.4 SB, 6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, 1 fold, CO raises, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls

Turn: :7h: (6.2 BB, 3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls

River: :9s: (8.2 BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero raises, CO calls


two..i was really hoping for AK here on the turn, and the possibility spooked me on the river. i wanted to 3bet, but i was afraid a cap meant i was overboated. was this correct to b/c river?

0.05/0.1 Limit Holdem
10 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($4.33)
Hero ($3.13)
UTG+2 ($1.99)
MP1 ($1.26)
MP2 ($1.45)
MP3 ($4.03)
CO ($2.92)
BTN ($1.40)
SB ($1.56)
BB ($2.34)

Pre-flop: (1.4 SB, 10 players) Hero is UTG+1 :8h: :8d:
1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks

Flop: :8s: :6d: :ks: (4.4 SB, 4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP1 raises, 1 fold, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls

Turn: :ac: (5.2 BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, MP1 3-bets, Hero 4-bets, MP1 calls

River: :ad: (13.2 BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero calls

three...this is a bit of a different line for me. i had an aggro on BTN and wanted to charge him the max if he was on a flush draw. the river fold surprised me. but, should i have checked the turn or river and let him bluff? somehow i felt he would have fired, but i thought he would possibly raise my lead on a bluff, too.

0.05/0.1 Limit Holdem
10 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($1.82)
UTG+1 ($2.98)
Hero ($3.05)
MP1 ($5.58)
MP2 ($1.95)
MP3 ($0.83)
CO ($2.00)
BTN ($5.01)
SB ($0.36)
BB ($1.13)
[CO posted 0.05]

Pre-flop: (2.4 SB, 10 players) Hero is UTG+2 :qh: :ah:
2 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP3 3-bets, CO calls, BTN calls, 2 folds, Hero 4-bets, MP3 calls, CO calls, BTN calls

Flop: :qc: :4d: :7c: (17.4 SB, 4 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, BTN bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO folds, BTN calls

Turn: :tc: (11.7 BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls, BTN calls

River: :5h: (14.7 BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, 2 folds

Hand in OP: I really want to c/r this turn card. Is that wrong?

As played, I consider a c/r on the river and fold to a 3bet. He will almost never turn over a J here. More likely he has a busted FD or A5/A4. 66/88/99 is also possible, but he can only 3bet you with a straight or better. He may fold 88/99 to the river c/r and if not well it only cost you one extra BB and you build a tricky image.

The last 3 hands:

1) Flop 3 bet is in order imo. You have 11 outs to TP or better with two opponents. MP already called two cold and will probably call a cap as well. Like you said, it may also give you the option to take a free card on the turn.

2) Who overlimps with AK? My best guess is he has 66 or maybe A6 or even A8. I probably lead/3bet the turn and b/c the river.

3) My standard play here is to lead the flop. However, I have been contemplating using the flop c/r with strong hands in these types of situations (early position, 4 or more way pot) but I haven't quite got my head around the precise times to do it vs. when to just lead out.

Here, it's not really a board that's going to hit many opponents, so I'm in favor of leading out. Someone with QJ might even raise and you can 3bet with a ton of equity.

If the flop were QT4 with two suited cards or some such I'd be more tempted to go for the c/r.

I like your value bet on the river.

OP...youre not alone on the turn c/r.

1...i figured i shoulda been more aggro there.

2...good point, but sure as shit i just saw it tonight..twice and once with AQs. turn was apparently capping anyway. but, i thought if he didnt have the K, he had the A and would bet it, so i was 100% sure i would get the c/r in. and, if he felt i was full of shit, which he shouldnt when i pull the 3bet flop/c-r turn line, i felt it an easier cap if he thought he was in control.

3...i think this is where the "levels" we play differ substantially. i am by no means a master. but, i can tell you that QJ doesnt raise me, he only calls until the J falls. and, even then, it better not be the club. they are really crappy in those "protection" spots...in that they simply dont protect their hands unless they're the nuts. i felt i would charge the draw the max, as he would certainly bet it, and i had no fear of Q7/Q4, os i felt safe in getting him to put 2 in on the flop. i see the point on the QT4 2-suit flop, but if its a rainbow flop, i can also tell you no one leads with less than the Q at my games...at least not often.

thanks for the input.

villain was incredibly passive and came alive on flush card. can i fold this on the river once the board doesnt pair?

0.05/0.1 Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($1.79)
UTG+1 ($0.97)
MP1 ($1.99)
Hero ($2.01)
MP3 ($5.28)
CO ($1.25)
BTN ($2.31)
SB ($2.79)
BB ($1.29)

Pre-flop: (1.4 SB, 9 players) Hero is MP2 :qh: :qs:
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 5 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls

Flop: :2s: :qc: :tc: (7.4 SB, 3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls

Turn: :jc: (5.2 BB, 3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, UTG folds

River: :5d: (7.2 BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero ??

crying call.

Depending on villain, I'll often raise turn for free SD. That weak lead is very often just that- weak! But you DID say "very passive," so your read trumps everything we say.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

villain was incredibly passive and came alive on flush card. can i fold this on the river once the board doesnt pair?

0.05/0.1 Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($1.79)
UTG+1 ($0.97)
MP1 ($1.99)
Hero ($2.01)
MP3 ($5.28)
CO ($1.25)
BTN ($2.31)
SB ($2.79)
BB ($1.29)

Pre-flop: (1.4 SB, 9 players) Hero is MP2 :qh: :qs:
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 5 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls

Flop: :2s: :qc: :tc: (7.4 SB, 3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls

Turn: :jc: (5.2 BB, 3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, UTG folds

River: :5d: (7.2 BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero ??

---

you can never fold that because even passive people bet two pair

Hand one.

When you have overlay to the river against multiple opponents, always be willing to cap the river.

Hand two. What hands does your opponent limp.call with that you can't raise on this river? Does he limp with AA, KK or AK? A8 or A6? Those are the only hands that beat you... re-raise and call the cap on the river here.

Hand 3... that's all standard except for the river fold.
NH.

Hand 4 Crying Call, you beat a ton of his range he'd be willing to bet here with, also your turn check smells weak.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by socal1111

crying call.

Depending on villain, I'll often raise turn for free SD. That weak lead is very often just that- weak! But you DID say "very passive," so your read trumps everything we say.

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i asked because, again, this is something i will see live quite a bit at the lower stakes. you will see some passive fool all of a sudden wake up on a scare card. and, more often than not, they seem to have it, especially if its a straight or flush. if its a blank-looking turn card, it still hit the passive if he suddenly fires...usually his kicker for two pair.

if UTG had fired the turn, i'd be fine with raising, provided UTG+1 didnt beat me to it. however, once UTG checks and UTG+1 (the passive guy) fired, i had to feel that the flush was hit...of course, that doesnt mean it did.

rule #5 from my generic "Rules of Engagement"...dont be afraid of 3 card boards, but be VERY afraid of 4 card boards.

of course, i made the call, but i wondered if, GIVEN THE LEVEL, we could ever fold this...or if the more aggros (like socal) would say to "max value and raise."

villain had Kc3d. lol.

in OP hand I'd c/r the turn for sure, even if you're behind you have 6 pretty clean outs, but i'd say you're mostly ahead, especially after CO folds

Hand 1 i think is well played, capping the flop oop will rarely give u a free card against his likely TP or 2pair and your equity is really close to 33%, so not so much value in raising there. Still, i tend to do it for the sake of gaining some bluffing equity (which is not recommended in these loose games)
I think it's close. Love the river c/r.

Hand 2
B/C on the river seems fine to me

Hand 3
Looks fine.
Another line to protect your hands is waiting for the turn, either leading flop or c/calling flop, and c/r on the turn if no club comes.
I would prefer leading flop, and if you trust BTN will fire for u on turn, go for the c/r if no club. If a club comes, you lead again and call a raise.

Hand 4
POT ODDS! better than 8-1, cant fold top set there
You may be beat, but you only need to win 1 in 9 times for it to be a good call, and there are enough hands he may bet there, even being passive

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

villain was incredibly passive and came alive on flush card. can i fold this on the river once the board doesnt pair?

0.05/0.1 Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($1.79)
UTG+1 ($0.97)
MP1 ($1.99)
Hero ($2.01)
MP3 ($5.28)
CO ($1.25)
BTN ($2.31)
SB ($2.79)
BB ($1.29)

Pre-flop: (1.4 SB, 9 players) Hero is MP2 :qh: :qs:
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 5 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls

Flop: :2s: :qc: :tc: (7.4 SB, 3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls

Turn: :jc: (5.2 BB, 3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, UTG folds

River: :5d: (7.2 BB, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero ??

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ok, so indulge me. we knew any set was too strong to fold for these odds. but, what about AQ or KQ here? if i held one of those, could i have folded the turn with my read and UTG still to act? do i dare raise to protect?

KQ I still call/call because the possibility of a weaker hand is much better than 20%

we also have outs on the turn and the odds on the river
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

264 games 0.047 secs 5,617 games/sec

Board: 2s Qc Tc Jc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.364% 36.36% 00.00% 96 0.00 { KsQh }
Hand 1: 63.636% 63.64% 00.00% 168 0.00 { JTo }


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

ok, so indulge me. we knew any set was too strong to fold for these odds. but, what about AQ or KQ here? if i held one of those, could i have folded the turn with my read and UTG still to act? do i dare raise to protect?

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If he fires again, definitely fold those on the river if u dont make a straight or trips
i'm guessin u'd be holding AQ and KQ with no clubs.
a turn raise wont protect since pot odds would still dictate a call for UTG if he is holding the Ac
But it would be an interesting use of the freeSD play (raising for a free showdown, folding if 3bet, or villain bets river again, checking behind if he checks)
Your best option there is to peel as you figure to be behind to either 2pair, a straight, or the dreaded flush, and then fold UI. By peeling you are actually hoping UTG overcalls getting you the effective odds you need to draw to 6outs
Still, the passives sometimes go crazy and try a bluff now and then, plus, to fold the turn is really close cause you have to be totally sure he has the flush, and you cant be. He could have AK, QJ, JT, 98,K9, all hands that make sense and got big on the turn.

ok. those were kind of on the same lines as i was thinking, but thanks for the clarification.

but, as for the "free showdown," is that something we want to do w/o the Ac? with the Ac, we have a redraw, and great odds, to raise him back. but, this play, when we are better than 50% sure we are behind seems futile, to me.

can someone explain the advantage to raising the turn and going for the free SD here? doesnt it cost the same? if it costs the same (2BB) to raise, then, fold river to a bet or turn to a 3bet, why dont we just peel and call one bet on the river?

i often will do this and then look again on the river and think, "that card didnt help anyone. he only called my turn raise/RR, so if i was ahead (which i didnt exactly know), i am still ahead...so, can i really fold this for one more bet with even better odds?" and, usually, i call it off...thereby costing me 3 BBs instead of two when behind.

does that make any sense?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

ok. those were kind of on the same lines as i was thinking, but thanks for the clarification.

but, as for the "free showdown," is that something we want to do w/o the Ac? with the Ac, we have a redraw, and great odds, to raise him back. but, this play, when we are better than 50% sure we are behind seems futile, to me.

can someone explain the advantage to raising the turn and going for the free SD here? doesnt it cost the same? if it costs the same (2BB) to raise, then, fold river to a bet or turn to a 3bet, why dont we just peel and call one bet on the river?

i often will do this and then look again on the river and think, "that card didnt help anyone. he only called my turn raise/RR, so if i was ahead (which i didnt exactly know), i am still ahead...so, can i really fold this for one more bet with even better odds?" and, usually, i call it off...thereby costing me 3 BBs instead of two when behind.

does that make any sense?

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Sometimes the free sd play has certain advantages compared to calling down.
1.if villain bet as a bluff he will fold without seeing the river where he may have outdrawn us or bluffed again on another river scare card forcing a tough decision on us. Against known bluffers it's better to let them bluff, but without a read, you don't know wether you are passively paying someone off or snapping their bluff.
2.if villain bet a mediocre hand he may fold without seeing the river thinking we may have a big hand (in this case if he doesn't have the flush he may fold thinking we do)
3.if villain is very passive (this is the case) we can safely fold to a 3bet since he would only 3bet a flush. And we lose the same moneys as calling down.
4.if villain bet as a semibluff, say with the Ac, we charge him to draw and our aggression should convince him that we have a hand, so he will check the river if he didnt get there. If he bets the river, he clearly got there or had a great hand all along, thus we can safely fold. If he checks the river we will usually check behind unless we improve (in this particular case we would always check behind)

This is a good play when we have a hand we would like to take to showdown but are not sure we are best and just calling will give us no info. for the same price we get all the info (safely fold to a 3bet or if he fires again on the river) plus we win some hands where he just folds fearing a big hand.

Again, calling down is best against aggro bluffy villains, since there is a bigger chance they'll bluff two streets. Plus, aggro players may actually 3bet semibluff us forcing us to fold the best hand.
A more passive-weak player, may fold a better hand, and will surely not 3bet semibluff.

I am not sure this hand is a good spot for it given the board, but it is a good opponent to do the play on.

Say you have 77
the board comes Q53
he check calls
the turn is the T
he bets, you should raise.
Most rivers will be scare cards for you, and if you just call and an ace pops up and he fires again, you have to fold.
But what if he held J9? and decided he is desperate and tries to bluff? he wouldnt with your turn aggression.
or he may fold to your turn raise something like JT or T9 (amazing result)

hope this makes some sense

makes good sense.

how bout this hand....

i put him squarely on another overpair, just not as big as me. JJ-KK. i cant see TT playing this way. but, given the river action, i have to think this was AK? i mean what else does this?

0.05/0.1 Limit Holdem
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($1.43)
UTG+1 ($2.38)
Hero ($3.28)
MP2 ($3.50)
CO ($1.71)
BTN ($2.69)
SB ($2.54)
BB ($1.44)

Pre-flop: (1.4 SB, 8 players) Hero is MP1 :ah: :ad:
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, CO 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, Hero 4-bets, CO calls, SB calls

Flop: :3s: :3c: :qd: (13.0 SB, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, SB folds, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Hero 4-bets, CO calls

Turn: :7d: (10.5 BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO 4-bets, Hero calls

River: :6s: (18.5 BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO folds

Final Pot: 22.5 BB

Hero wins 22.5 BB ( won +11.5 BB )
CO lost 10.0 BB
SB lost 2.0 BB



sorry, this is a bit of a brag. but, only because i think my read was correct. i wasnt slowing down at all. i couldnt see anything other than JJ-KK in there with me...until he dropped it. then, it became quite the headscratcher.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

makes good sense.

how bout this hand....

i put him squarely on another overpair, just not as big as me. JJ-KK. i cant see TT playing this way. but, given the river action, i have to think this was AK? i mean what else does this?

0.05/0.1 Limit Holdem
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($1.43)
UTG+1 ($2.38)
Hero ($3.28)
MP2 ($3.50)
CO ($1.71)
BTN ($2.69)
SB ($2.54)
BB ($1.44)

Pre-flop: (1.4 SB, 8 players) Hero is MP1 :ah: :ad:
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, CO 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, Hero 4-bets, CO calls, SB calls

Flop: :3s: :3c: :qd: (13.0 SB, 3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, SB folds, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, Hero 4-bets, CO calls

Turn: :7d: (10.5 BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO 4-bets, Hero calls

River: :6s: (18.5 BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO folds

Final Pot: 22.5 BB

Hero wins 22.5 BB ( won +11.5 BB )
CO lost 10.0 BB
SB lost 2.0 BB



sorry, this is a bit of a brag. but, only because i think my read was correct. i wasnt slowing down at all. i couldnt see anything other than JJ-KK in there with me...until he dropped it. then, it became quite the headscratcher.

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yeah, AdKd is probably it. 99,TT,JJ make sense except for the river
but then again he played the whole hand like a maniac, u never know

I wouldn't 3bet the river cause it looks too much like QQ, i'd just bet/call

i 3bet because once he raised me, i thought, "i have to be beat...but, by what? a set? no, not the way he played preflop. two pair? no way, not preflop. QQ? maybe, if it is, it is. but, it could also be JJ or KK, too." i didnt think AK would make it that far without hitting a pair.

so, i figured if it was QQ, oh well, but i wanted the max from the dumbest JJ/KK i would ever come across. 6 combos of QQ and 6 each of JJ/KK. i am a 2:1 favorite here. so, at this level, i figure he cant fold, so i may as well charge the hell out of him. so, i 3bet hoping he would finally call and not cap. but, i knew i was calling a cap, so may as well fire in case i was ahead. i just felt very strongly that this was KK, from him, as often as it was QQ.

i still went, "wtf?" when he folded, tho.

socal, where are you? you would love that "max value" hand.

new hand here. night running like this....where all i seem to do is trap myself deeper and deeper due to numbers of players and pot sizes. is this a potential leak?

can i get away on the flop, or was 3betting the play? i just cant see calling being right.

0.05/0.1 Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($1.26)
UTG+1 ($2.71)
MP1 ($8.57)
MP2 ($0.48)
MP3 ($2.38)
Hero ($1.73)
BTN ($3.98)
SB ($3.07)
BB ($1.44)

Pre-flop: (1.4 SB, 9 players) Hero is CO :ah: :as:
UTG calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, BTN calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls

Flop: :5c: :7d: :8d: (9.0 SB, 4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, BTN bets, SB calls, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, BTN 4-bets, SB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls

Turn: :qh: (12.5 BB, 4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, BTN bets, SB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls

River: :7h: (16.5 BB, 4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, BTN bets, SB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls

I might consider folding that turn if I know that either UTG or BTN are passive.

I think 3-betting is OK, just as long as after the cap you know you're facing two pair or better. Quite likely a flopped straight for the button. In fact I'd put BTN on a straight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

new hand here. night running like this....where all i seem to do is trap myself deeper and deeper due to numbers of players and pot sizes. is this a potential leak?

can i get away on the flop, or was 3betting the play? i just cant see calling being right.

0.05/0.1 Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($1.26)
UTG+1 ($2.71)
MP1 ($8.57)
MP2 ($0.48)
MP3 ($2.38)
Hero ($1.73)
BTN ($3.98)
SB ($3.07)
BB ($1.44)

Pre-flop: (1.4 SB, 9 players) Hero is CO :ah: :as:
UTG calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, BTN calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls

Flop: :5c: :7d: :8d: (9.0 SB, 4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, BTN bets, SB calls, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, BTN 4-bets, SB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls

Turn: :qh: (12.5 BB, 4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, BTN bets, SB calls, UTG calls, Hero calls

River: :7h: (16.5 BB, 4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, BTN bets, SB folds, UTG calls, Hero calls

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What's Wrong with Bet/Fold on the turn?

iopq, i was looking for the escape hatch, but never really got it. obv, i was beat after the cap, which is why i thought there should be somewhere i can get away, but i cant for one bet....or at least i dont in a pot like this.

rag, i knew if i bet, i get raised...well, i felt strongly. and, i didnt want to put anything more into the pot beyond a one bet call. i felt if i just put the minimum in from there and didnt call off two bets cold, then i could possibly hit my miracle or let them keep firing the 1% of the time i was ahead. i was feeling the "straight vs flush draw" in my two villains.

so, guys, which is better?...

fold when facing two on flop w/o a good read?
b/f turn?
anything else?

i just hate trapping myself in a hand when i think i played it wrong, and it gets this costly...but still dont know the best way to fix it. (and dont say, "fold pre" you smartasses...lol)

First off all, we MUST lead the flop. Going for the c/r is making me want to cry for two reasons:

1) If btn doesn't bet behind us all we are doing is giving everyone with a crappy gutshot or backdoor draw a free card. There are so many hands that we're ahead of that will call a flop bet that possibly letting this get checked around is absolutely criminal. This is really important.

2) A lead disguises our hand. We could be leading with an overpair or just a big Ace like AK, AQ, or maybe even just KJ. When we c/r the flop we announce to the table "I HAVE A BIG OVERPAIR OR BIG DRAW EVERYONE." Awake opponents will notice that and adjust their play accordingly. Better to keep 'em guessing. This becomes more important as you move up limits and your opponents get better.

Apart from that, I don't think u played this wrong at all. Yeah the cap on the flop sets off alarm bells but Btn could have two pair, an overpair, or even a FD or A8. A straight or a set is the only thing we really fear and 96 and 64 don't make up much of his cold calling range. 88, 77, 55 are all possible, but the point is we can't be sure and it's a big pot.

On the turn, I just call along. I can't see b/f as a play. I mean what's the best case scenario for leading into button? He's not going to fold any hand he capped on the flop. He's going to raise if he has two pair or better in which case we are just charging ourselves two bets to see the river when we could potentially see it for one. Betting and then folding to a raise is not recommended imo because if he has 87, 85, 75 we have 10 outs and the pot is waaaay too big to fold 10 outs for one more bet. And if he has KK, b/f the turn is a disaster.

The only time betting the turn makes sense is if we have a strong suspicion btn is on a draw and will take a free card. Show me the last time someone capped the flop on a draw and then checked behind on the turn at 1/2 (or 3/6 or 5/10 for that matter). They just ain't that smart.

Betting and calling with what is likely the second best hand obviously isn't much better.

On the river, I wouldn't even dream about folding. That seven pairing is good for us because if he had 85 (unlikely but possible) or an overpair like JJ/KK we have the best hand and we're getting 18.5:1.

There's certainly times when it's correct to fold a big overpair but those usually involve hands where two or more opponents are getting excited on the turn on a scary board. This hand doesn't count as one of those and I think calling down is absolutely correct.

thx, dog...as usual.

let me explain WHY i didnt lead out, as it may not look 100% stupid...only 75%ish.

i see a cold-called pf hand multi-way. to me, that screams pp's, connectors, ragged broadways, suited A's, and your random suited gappers....down here. in other words a very wide, but not strong, range. i will be dealing with some serious potential of sucking out/schooling, if i cant make them cold call something very early on.

and, this flop HAMMERS that range, imo. sure, i have the overpair, but i planned to c/c and wait for a "safe" turn card or get the miracle opportunity to force the field to call two. i felt i was likely outflopped, and at 9sb's, i cant lead and make anyone, but the weakest draws, play incorrectly. and, clearly, i had a marginal hand at this point. had the pf action been 3bet or capped, i would have led no problem and hoped for a raise...on this flop. i dont even have a problem with this flop HU, but its 4-way. that i have a problem with.

however, when the BTN led, and UTG c/r'd, i felt that was my only realistic opportunity to punish any draws...or fold off. i just wasnt exactly convinced i was drawing super thin AND behind yet. however, that c/r also meant i was likely playing a 2-outer hoping for the board to pair and counterfeit someone, and even then, i may still be dead.

does that reasoning make my flop decision better or worse?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chopper

thx, dog...as usual.

let me explain WHY i didnt lead out, as it may not look 100% stupid...only 75%ish.

1) i see a cold-called pf hand multi-way. to me, that screams pp's, connectors, ragged broadways, suited A's, and your random suited gappers....down here. in other words a very wide, but not strong, range.

2) i will be dealing with some serious potential of sucking out/schooling, if i cant make them cold call something very early on.

3) and, this flop HAMMERS that range, imo.

4) sure, i have the overpair, but i planned to c/c and wait for a "safe" turn card or get the miracle opportunity to force the field to call two. i felt i was likely outflopped, and at 9sb's, i cant lead and make anyone, but the weakest draws, play incorrectly.

5) and, clearly, i had a marginal hand at this point.

6) had the pf action been 3bet or capped, i would have led no problem and hoped for a raise...on this flop. i dont even have a problem with this flop HU, but its 4-way. that i have a problem with.

7) however, when the BTN led, and UTG c/r'd, i felt that was my only realistic opportunity to punish any draws...or fold off. i just wasnt exactly convinced i was drawing super thin AND behind yet. however, that c/r also meant i was likely playing a 2-outer hoping for the board to pair and counterfeit someone, and even then, i may still be dead.

8) does that reasoning make my flop decision better or worse?

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1) In this you are probably right on.

2) Sound enough reasoning. The problem is that we're in late position so when no-one leads into us it's practically impossible to make someone call two cold to see the turn. But we can at least make them call one, which is better than giving a free card.

3) 'Hammers' might be an overstatement. It can certainly hit it, but it can miss it too if they have mid-high cards like JTs, KQ, or A3s, etc. We still likely have the best hand at this point.

4) Giving them 9:1 is better than risking giving them a free card. We're not in a position to protect our hand on the flop as i said. If btn bets and we just call along we won't be in a position to protect it on the turn either if SB and UTG check again. The best we can hope for is to bet and have btn raise A7s, K8s, 6x, etc., which protects our hand for us.

5) I hope you're not talking about when it's first checked around to you on the flop! Just because the board is coordinated doesn't mean an overpair is behind. I named the five or six hands we're behind to at this point and they make up a minority of our opponents' ranges. Much less than 50% chance that an opponent is ahead of us at THIS point. Probably more like 10%.

6) Too cautious imo, and this is a theme I see running through a lot of your hands tbh. You need to base your decisions on what's probable and not on the worst case scenario. AA is going to be ahead of three opponents on most flops and until we see evidence otherwise, we should be trying to build the pot.

7) So we misclick and check the flop, btn bets, SB folds and UTG c/rs. NOW we have a reason to stop and think. I don't see how we can ever fold an overpair to the UTG c/r for one more bet. I suggest just calling the c/r and seeing what btn does. If he 3bets and UTG caps we can be fairly certain we're drawing to 0-10 outs and consider what to do then. If btn just calls as well we can probably raise an UTG lead on the turn and go from there.

8) What do you think?

5) i tend to worry about chasers in groups in big pots with coordinated boards.

6) the problem is the "evidence otherwise." i dont see a lot of raising down here, so its hard to tell at times, which is where the bad habit of "assumption" is coming from.

8) i think in one way it makes it better, but in 7 ways it makes it worse.

and, you are dead on about seeing "worst case scenario" running through my HHs. obv, i need to fix that. i think i am also confusing others' concept of "waiting for a safe turn on coordinated boards in small stakes loose games."

i just need it beat into my head. dont worry about being too honest with me. i need it straight.

Hey Chop, I hope what I'm saying helps. I'm not an expert by any means but I have picked up a thing or two since I started...

i need people to spot these things. no harm done. and, yes, you pretty much always help.