Questions regarding 3b/4b etc. [long]
I recently moved up to 50nl on Stars (recently = 2 days ago) and it has me pondering a few more concepts. As a quick disclaimer, I don't quite know how relevant this will all be at my current 50nl stakes, as the players are still pretty dense and not adjusting etc., however, I do know of a few regulars who do understand these concepts and 3b light, as well as they have the ability to 4b bluff etc if need be. I hope to be moving up to 100nl in a month or so and then higher after that, so I would like to already be introduced to these concepts and beginnging to understand them as soon as possible. So give me any help possible please.
Currently, I'm still in the microstakes mindset of 3bing pretty much solely for value [QQ+, AK, AQ (player dependent)]. Now, if we go by the ABCD theorem, hands such as the ones listed about would fall into Range A hands, which I'm willing to either call/raise a 4b with and felt preflop or after the flop (usually). Next, I realize we would want to create a range that we feel is profitable to call with (ie. Range B). This range would include hands such as scs, small-mid pp (given set odds), and some broadways.
So my first question is regarding this calling range (I know it's not in the thread title). How do you determine the calling range effectively? I mean I know it's player dependent, but is that mainly it? Because the part that confuses me is this. If a tight player opens he generally has a strong range, therefore it would seem that we would want to limit our 3betting and calling ranges because he can generally have those dominated (excluding hands that rely on implied odds). So hands like AJ, and KQ, I wouldn't think are profitable to call against rather nitty opponents (10/8ish). But at the same time, because they are playing tight, their 3b calling range is also rather tight, so it would make sense to 3b them lighter as they will usually toss all but their strongest hands (especially if they are off the weak/tight genre). So I don't kow how to adjust my 3bing and calling ranges against these players. I'm thinking I would move hands like KQ, AJ into the 3bing range, but as bluffs maybe, because if I call I'm dominated by a good portion of their range? Is this even close to being correct on how to approach 3bing and calling ranges against tight players by 3bing them more with a wider range?
My next question is the same but again loose players. As they are opening a wider range would I be better off opening my 3bing range to include hands like AJs, TT+, as I am ahead of alot of their range preflop. OR do those hands have more value in calling as loose players are more likely to stack off weaker postflop with say a dominated hand like A7 on Axx board? Hands such as those dominated hands that they might toss to a 3b preflop? So would I have more value calling with hands here against loose players?
Next is determing a good light 3bing range. As I said I know Range A is 3betting for value. And range B (once I find it from the earlier questions) is calling profitably. Range C would be hands just below Range B that I don't feel I can call profitably, but has some sort of value if I were to 3b bluff with and get called. Hands such Axs, Kxs. But those are really the only hands I can think of that fit the bill here, am I'm not certain about those. By 3betting these hands as bluffs, not intending to call a 4b, not only would we be making it harder for our opponents to determine what our 3bets mean, but they also have some value when called ( I think). So is a solid light 3bing range something like [JJ+, Axs, Kxs]? Or am I missing something, and should I throw in some suited connectors into the mix (I am unsure about the SCs as I've heard yes and no, so...)?
Okay now that i have a 3bing light range, let's assume my opponent is 3betting me light. How should I approach 4bing? Well first off what's a good 4b size? Assuming I raise to 4x and they repop me to 12x, should I be 4bing to something like 28x-30x ($14-$16)? I realize there will be times when that number differs, such as history, player, and stack sizes, but just wondering on average.
Next I'd need to look at a 4bing range. Obviously with such strong hands as KK+, AK (?), we could 4b for value against a light 3bettor. But what about our calling and bluffing range? I'm rather stumped here, so I don't have much to offer. Do we 4b hands like A2s-A5s as bluffs to even out our 4bing range?
And the same goes with a 4b calling range and a 5bing range (if need be).
I understand this was long and fairly jumbled, but if you stuck with me this far, thanks for taking the time to read and I hope you add to it in some way. I'm really wanting a rundown on how to adjust to a light 3bettor and how to implement it as need be, and how to effectively do everything that comes with it (balancing my range, 4/5betting for value and bluffs, and creating some pretty decent betting and calling ranges). If you could explain to me that it would be great.
XxStacksxX
Re: Questions regarding 3b/4b etc. [long]
alright, no responses, so ill give some some atrocious ones and force an issue so there!
say a tight player raises, like 8% of hands, then we can reraise profitably with the top 7% of hands (just barely). So, a good range to consider 3betting or calling would be 88+, ATs+, KQs, AKo since these are ahead of the 8% tight players raising range that includes weaker kings and aces. Then of these, TT+, AQs, AK0, AKs are the hands that are more or equal to 50% equity vs the range (ignoring position of course). With 99,88, AJs, ATs, KTs+ and AQo being remaining and slgith underdogs against his range. The former group we can create an A range
A: QQ+, AK
where we are strictly raising for value.
B: TT-JJ, AQs are left, and since they are more than 50% (barely) we can profitably call
Whats left goes to the C and D
C 88, 99, AJs, AQo, KQs
D ATs KTs, KJs
with the reasoning that D we never have any idea where we are in the hand while C still has some potential.
Alright, now of C, 99 and AQ have the best chance of beating his range still of these hands, so we can move them into A as a bluff. These are the ones we fold if 4b, but give us enough chance of winning if just called. Leaving
A 99, QQ+ AQo+ AKs
B TT-JJ, AQS
C 88, AJs, KQs
D ATs KTs KJs
Now against a wider raising range, we would be able to 3bet wider as well. Say the raiser raised 11% of hands (again ignoring position) Then a 3b range of 88+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJ0+ KQo shows a slight profit and we can redo the proscess thus widening ABC and D.
Obv this is using pokerstoves crap range determiner, and KTs is probably less likely to be in the range than say 76s or A5s but by adjusting these for what we think that 7% raising range is we can again alter our ABCD.
as to the size of the 4b, i like just doing a standard 3x amount. Less might get called to often, which is something we wont want when we add in the bluffing hands to the 4b range.
With the 4b bluffing range, an op will probably assume we do this with KK+ and AK, but mainly KK+ . I like the number of hands you chose to add to the 4bet range because i think the number of combos is just a bit larger than that for KK+ and AK, but i dont like what they are. I ran some pokerstove calculations, and most weaker hands except total junk fair as a 33% underdog to win against a 7% range. I assume 7% because that is a standard tagg player but probably also a light 3bettor's range. I think instead of the aces, QJs, JTs and T9s would be better candidates. While these fair slightly worse, i think they are less likely to be dominated and have outs against more hands as well as having more straight draws than the aces. Also, should our 4b get called, flush and straight possible boards give us an option to push with a good number of outs should we get called, while looking exactly the same as KK+ or AK.
I is a noob, so any other noobs reading should by no means blindly follow this. This is just an attempt at answering stacks question and get more info in the process when reviewed.
