when is the right time to raise?

suppose you flopped a huge hand, say a set or a straight, against a villain who has initiative. When do you put in a raise to swell the pot, considering that you do not want to give away the strength of your hand? On his flop bet? Later? What changes if you are OOP? How about if it's a limped pot?

Here's a hand to illustrate.

$0.1/$0.2 No Limit Holdem
8 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG quol ($4.93)
UTG+1 alanturing1 ($5.00)
MP1 pAyformyBeNz ($20.51)
MP2 Fuxchen ($18.19)
CO BenjiDerKing ($22.36)
BTN Spot72 ($23.16)
SB newgosam ($19.74)
BB laroca2 ($21.19)

Pre-flop: ($0.30, 8 players)
3 folds, Fuxchen raises to $0.80, 2 folds, newgosam calls $0.70, 1 fold

Flop: :jd: :5d: :2h: ($1.80, 2 players)
newgosam checks, Fuxchen bets $0.90, newgosam calls $0.90

Turn: :3h: ($3.60, 2 players)
newgosam checks, Fuxchen bets $2, newgosam raises to $5, Fuxchen folds

Final Pot: $10.22

newgosam wins $10.22 ( won +$3.52 )
Fuxchen lost -$3.70

thoughts, anyone?

thoughts, anyone?

What's your hand? It got dropped on the hh converter.

Trip fives or deuces, can't remember.

I don't see what your hand is, but at these stakes, bet when you have a good hand and make money. That's all.

never slowplay.
never slowplay.
don't slowplay
you shouldn't slowplay.
fastplay!
I would suggest you don't slowplay.
If you're fucking slowplaying I will strangle you until you transfer me your bankroll and declare me your living Lord and Savior.

Bet the flop! Raise the flop!

Agreed. Slowplaying is for hands that aren't vunerable. Your hand is vulnerable. Bet/raise.

I'm new to cash games, but I'll give this a shot.

If it's a limped pot and you have flopped a monster hand such as the nuts, then obviously you want as many people chasing their draws as possible, so you should just call and hope that someone catches up to a big 2nd best. If your hand is vulnerable though, you should definitely raise on the flop and make people pay to draw.

If I am in position and was the pre-flop aggressor (this is assuming HU), I typically throw in a 1/3-1/2 pot bet, because I want it to look like a continuation bet rather than a value bet. However, at low levels checking behind probably isn't as suspicious as it is against thinking opponents, so that's an option. However, depending on your hand, you may be giving your opponent a free draw to a hand that beats you, so you should only do that on a dry board.

In this particular hand, I probably raise the flop. If a scare card comes on the turn, he's not going to put more money into the pot, so I want to get as much in on the flop as I can. I never slow play because most of the time I get burnt when I do, and it's just not worth it, especially at low limits where opponents call with ATC.

Again, I am new to cash, so take this with a grain of salt.

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Originally Posted by okiman

Agreed. Slowplaying is for hands that aren't vunerable. Your hand is vulnerable. Bet/raise.

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Do. Not. Slowplay.

edited for bold

I think I'd play this fast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RML604

I'm new to cash games, but I'll give this a shot.

If it's a limped pot and you have flopped a monster hand such as the nuts Yup :), then obviously you want as many people chasing their draws as possible Yup :), so you should just call and hope that someone catches up to a big 2nd best Noooooo. You bet! So that weak players call (hint, everyone's first reaction to a bet is to call) and if they make a weak 2 pair, they're stacking off to you. If the continue to have top pair, they may stack off to you. If they get frisky and bluff you, they stack off to you. NEVER SLOWPLAY!. If your hand is vulnerable though, you should definitely raise on the flop and make people pay to draw. Yup :)

If I am in position and was the pre-flop aggressor (this is assuming HU), I typically throw in a 1/3-1/2 pot bet I bet more, 3/4th to pot sized. LOL at ever betting 1/3 without attempting to induce a raise, because I want it to look like a continuation bet rather than a value bet. However, at low levels checking behind probably isn't as suspicious as it is against thinking opponents, so that's an option. pain... filling my body However, depending on your hand, you may be giving your opponent a free draw to a hand that beats you, so you should only do that on a dry board.

In this particular hand, I probably raise the flop. YAY! If a scare card comes on the turn, he's not going to put more money into the pot Just pretend everyone's gut reaction is to call, so I want to get as much in on the flop as I can. I never slow play because most of the time I get burnt when I doLessons learned, and it's just not worth it, especially at low limits where opponents call with ATC.Yay! Like I said, gut reaction is to call!

Again, I am new to cash, so take this with a grain of salt.

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The way I played I got some money from a KQ+ type of hand. Had I donked into him he'd probably have folded.

I don't slowplay much, but when I have trips and I suspect I'm against unpaired broadways, I try to let villain have some reason to fight for the pot.

How much money did you win from A4o, or from QdKd if the turn had been a diamond? How much do extra do you win if the turn hadnt been a diamond but he chases his draw to the river?

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Originally Posted by gosam

The way I played I got some money from a KQ+ type of hand. Had I donked into him he'd probably have folded.

I don't slowplay much, but when I have trips and I suspect I'm against unpaired broadways, I try to let villain have some reason to fight for the pot.

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DO. NOT. SLOWPLAY.

Trust me. In a vacuum, with ops hand turned over you MAYBE made the right decision. But just start betting and see what they allow you to valuetown them with.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RML604

I'm new to cash games, but I'll give this a shot.

If it's a limped pot and you have flopped a monster hand such as the nuts Yup :), then obviously you want as many people chasing their draws as possible Yup :), so you should just call and hope that someone catches up to a big 2nd best Noooooo. You bet! So that weak players call (hint, everyone's first reaction to a bet is to call) and if they make a weak 2 pair, they're stacking off to you. If the continue to have top pair, they may stack off to you. If they get frisky and bluff you, they stack off to you. NEVER SLOWPLAY!. If your hand is vulnerable though, you should definitely raise on the flop and make people pay to draw. Yup :)

If I am in position and was the pre-flop aggressor (this is assuming HU), I typically throw in a 1/3-1/2 pot bet I bet more, 3/4th to pot sized. LOL at ever betting 1/3 without attempting to induce a raise, because I want it to look like a continuation bet rather than a value bet. However, at low levels checking behind probably isn't as suspicious as it is against thinking opponents, so that's an option. pain... filling my body However, depending on your hand, you may be giving your opponent a free draw to a hand that beats you, so you should only do that on a dry board.

In this particular hand, I probably raise the flop. YAY! If a scare card comes on the turn, he's not going to put more money into the pot Just pretend everyone's gut reaction is to call, so I want to get as much in on the flop as I can. I never slow play because most of the time I get burnt when I doLessons learned, and it's just not worth it, especially at low limits where opponents call with ATC.Yay! Like I said, gut reaction is to call!

Again, I am new to cash, so take this with a grain of salt.

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I was hoping somebody would rip this apart. Very interesting, and I definitely learned a lot. Much thanks!

Gorilla, with a pot of $1.80 after the flop, how much do you typically lead out for in this situation? If villain raises, do you just call or 3bet?

1.20 to 1.80. When villain raises, my default is to 3 bet. But sometimes I either think he's bluffing or figure he's weak and will fold to my big man-sized bets and I will call to induce and check/raise all in on the turn. Even a diamond turn. But, usually 3 bet. Lots of worse hands he can call with.

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

1.20 to 1.80. When villain raises, my default is to 3 bet. But sometimes I either think he's bluffing or figure he's weak and will fold to my big man-sized bets and I will call to induce and check/raise all in on the turn. Even a diamond turn. But, usually 3 bet. Lots of worse hands he can call with.

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good idea...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gosam

Turn: :3h: ($3.60, 2 players)
newgosam checks, Fuxchen bets $2, newgosam raises to $5, Fuxchen folds

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Couple comments on standard raise bet sizing.

Pot is $3.6. Bet is $2. If you want to raise you do the following:
First pretend you call $2. This makes the interim pot $7.6. Then decide how big a fraction of pot you want to raise. Let's call it a pot sized raise - that's $7.6 on top of the $2 that you called.

Thus: Pot $3.6, Bet $2 - raise to $9.6 is a pot sized raise.

If you wanted to make it a 2/3 pot sized raise it would be $5 into $7.6 - meaning a raise to $7 ($2 call portion plus $5 raise portion).

Simple maths to figure out what a pot sized raise is: Take bet size, multiply by 3, add the size of the pot.

This works in Hand Histories and on sites like Party Poker where the pot size is shown absent the money that is bet on the current round. On sites like PokerStars where the pot summary includes the betting on the current round you take bet size multiply by 2 and add the stated pot size. You're getting the same result, but the pot size shown by site software sometimes varies.

Raising low, the way you've done in this hand, practically ensures you will never get decent value out of your sets. If he has a hand that's good enough to call a raise to $5, he probably has a hand that's good enough to call a raise to $9.6.

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Originally Posted by Erpel

Raising low, the way you've done in this hand, practically ensures you will never get decent value out of your sets. If he has a hand that's good enough to call a raise to $5, he probably has a hand that's good enough to call a raise to $9.6.

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Point taken, but my question was more pertaining to raise-timing than raise-sizing. The discussion just drifted off to slowplaying.

you don't understand why the discussion drifted to slowplaying?

Well, I thought the timing issue had already been addressed. That said, it seems like part of the answer is overlooked.

You could describe slowplaying as deciding to time your bets and raises later in the hand - thus all comments regarding whether or not you should be slowplaying are directly addressing your question - that of raise-timing. When people are saying not to slowplay they are indicating that they think the optimal raise timing is to raise on the flop - and on the turn. The earlier the better.

My supplementary comment regarding raise sizing is a general observation which I think is worth thinking about. It can be applied to this hand also starting from the flop.

Flop pot is $1.80, bet is $0.90. Standard raise is to $4.5 - if called it gives a pot on the turn of $10.80 with $12.4 effective behind. Due to the way pot and stack sizes approximate on the turn if a standard raise size is chosen on the flop I would probably overbet the flop a bit. Say a $5 bet gives a $11.80 pot size on the turn with $11.90 behind - almost a perfect pot sized bet for an all-in move on the turn.

You're obviously worried about him folding and denying you value. Don't be. If he has crap he'll fold regardless - you might squeeze a little something extra out of him by betting lower and later, but there are two drawbacks. If you commit to betting lower and later in the hand you won't get his entire stack if he's willing to stack off (with AA or something). If you commit to betting lower and later you may be giving him beneficial odds to out draw you (flush, straight). By betting big and early you will scare off some mediocre hands, but that is offset by your much higher probability of getting the villain's entire stack when he is willing to chance it.

At .01/.02 I've been struggling with this very issue.

I won't slowplay it but keep getting hit hard when vulnerable. My suggestion is raise the flop, if he re-raises call. On the turn, raise him, he doesn't have a flush but could be on a flush draw. River didn't complete his flush, raise but if he has been ultra aggressive just call, if he beats you pay him.

Ok, so always raise the flop.
That'll take some discipline to do, but I'll try.

at $0.1/$0.2 it really is simple. Raise all your good hands. Everytime.

Any time you get to the flop and you think you have the best hand and decide to check (to conceal your hand, to let people catch up, blah blah blah). Hit yourself. Then RAISE. Then on the turn. RAISE. Then on the river. RAISE.

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Originally Posted by gosam

Ok, so always raise the flop.
That'll take some discipline to do, but I'll try.

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No, bet the flop. Edit unless when you say 'raise' you mean bet.

that's what I meant, bet/raise the flop. :)