Ask me about full ring...

I haven't really been doing my job around here lately, so in an effort to build a bit of momentum, I decided to make this thread.

Feel free to ask me any full ring cash related question, and I'll respond at some point. If you have a specific question about a hand, I promise I'll respond to it.

If you'd like discussion generated about any specific topic thats bugging you, post here and we'll get it started in a new thread. One MAJOR topic that didn't really generate a ton of discussion was the abcd theorem post I made a while back (see digest sticky). I feel that this was probably the biggest recent logical breakthrough to my game, and something that pretty much <10% of full ring players adhere to at all.

Anyways, there you are. This'll probably run for a week or so.

Next time you're in Vegas will you play 10/20 uncapped and sell me half of your action?

What all do you take into consideration when thinking about what type of hand you are calling a 3bet with? Obv. stack sizes, how often they 3bet, etc. but when are you calling SCs, are you never doing so, etc.?

What calling range do you have against an avid blind stealer and what types of hands are you 3betting with?

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Originally Posted by kmind

What all do you take into consideration when thinking about what type of hand you are calling a 3bet with? Obv. stack sizes, how often they 3bet, etc. but when are you calling SCs, are you never doing so, etc.?

What calling range do you have against an avid blind stealer and what types of hands are you 3betting with?

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1. You should be more specific here. Are we oop/ip? Generally speaking calling 3-bets lightly oop is a losing play. Ip however, I call tons of 3-bets (i usually don't fold any decent suited connector, suited broadway, medium pair, or suited ace to anyone aggressive).

2. I'm 3-betting with a fairly polarized range of hands i want to stack off with and hands that i can't profitably call with until reads determine a better course of action (ie if he calls absurd amounts of 3-bets then i'll depolarize my range obviously). As far as calling, its something i do a lot. I usually will be taking a flop with all but the weakest pairs, mid suited connectors, any suited ace, AJo+ any suited broadway.

1. Do you raise 22-66 UTG? AJo? AJs?
2. When you raise from early to mid position do you often call light 3bets with small-mid pairs OOP against a tight range? Looser range?
3. What do you think of the new fad at 400NL+ of minraising preflop? Ever since Kelisitaan proved he could win 5ptbb+ 24 tabling 400NL+ it has become all the rage, even amongst the best regs.

More on blind defense plz.

If we're calling lots, we're going to miss most of the time + be OOP + not have initiative.

Whats the strategy to turn things around?

1, whats your UTG & UTG1 raising range? Do you play AQo, 22-55 in these positions when multitabling FR?
2,whats your calling range when unknown 20-30BB shorties in blinds shove over your BT or CO 3x raise? Do you have any ideas how to crush 20-30BB shorties in general?
3,what flop textures do you think are good for c-bet bluff oop vs one tight regular and another semi-loose guy?

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Originally Posted by Deanglow

1. Do you raise 22-66 UTG? AJo? AJs?
2. When you raise from early to mid position do you often call light 3bets with small-mid pairs OOP against a tight range? Looser range?
3. What do you think of the new fad at 400NL+ of minraising preflop? Ever since Kelisitaan proved he could win 5ptbb+ 24 tabling 400NL+ it has become all the rage, even amongst the best regs.

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1. Yes, at a low frequency, AJs being the highest frequency out of those choices.

2. No i generally tend to make weakish folds with those hands and 4bet bluff a ton to compensate.

3. I think its a good play in the last few positions at the table. When I play six max I minraise preflop generally. I think the inherent value in the play decreases as you go from hu to six max to full ring though. Full ring ppl fold a lot more postflop and aren't adept at 100bb dynamics, whereas its the opposite with six max and hu ppl, so in those cases deepening the dynamic can be very valuable. As a sortof aside, I think that open minraising in the sb (like kelisitaan does) is just retarded, for reasons that should be easy to see.

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Originally Posted by Keilah

More on blind defense plz.

If we're calling lots, we're going to miss most of the time + be OOP + not have initiative.

Whats the strategy to turn things around?

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The concept of initiative is way overrated. Its very easy to steal the initiative postflop.

Yes oop is an issue. This is why theres a gap concept in effect when we decide what hands to play oop. But when u flat someones button open with A8s, a) are well ahead of their range, b) have fairly large nut hand potential, c) can maneuver well on over 50% of flops.

As far as ways of obtaining initiative, checkraising, leading, and floating oop come to mind.

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Originally Posted by pokerfan

1, whats your UTG & UTG1 raising range? Do you play AQo, 22-55 in these positions when multitabling FR?
2,whats your calling range when unknown 20-30BB shorties in blinds shove over your BT or CO 3x raise? Do you have any ideas how to crush 20-30BB shorties in general?
3,what flop textures do you think are good for c-bet bluff oop vs one tight regular and another semi-loose guy?

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1. As i hinted at in dean's response, I play any pair, suited connector, and suited broadway with >0% frequency. However on the whole I'm pretty tight in ep, and am usually folding small pairs and AJo type hands, even AQo at tough tables.

***Multitabling isn't really a factor in my gameplan. I play no more than 12, and I believe at 12 tables I don't fail to take advantage of anything that I feel is plus ev.

2. Extremely dependant obv. I guess as a default something like 88+ AQ+

3. Axx Kxx and there are a variety of two barrel textures like J22r Q34ss.

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Originally Posted by Renton

The concept of initiative is way overrated.

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...and exploitable.

Postion > Initiative.

Flatting the button and pwning people is fun.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Originally Posted by Renton

The concept of initiative is way overrated.

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...and exploitable.

Postion > Initiative.

Flatting the button and pwning people is fun.

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yes, with at least 100bb and a reasonably playable hand, i don't believe the gap concept really at all applies to calling raises ip

1) I've been wondering how to proceed on whiffed flops in a 3b pot. For example EP opens and we 3b from BU with AKs. EP calls and flop is Q73r and he checks. I always seem to feel out of place c-betting here because the pot is larger than usual. What about oop?

2) Do you tend to 4b with KK/AA. If so, how much over a standard 3b? And what factors determine your decision to either flat or 4b (passive/agg villian, stack sizes, oop/ip)?

Sorry if those questions seem retarded, but those are two things I've run into lately that I've been wondering if I'm making the correct play or not. For #1 I understand the type of villian still ways heavily on our decision, such as we wouldn't want to c-bet here against a station.

Tell me what you would do with AA/KK in these 3bet PF spots and your general thought process/standard for flatting big pairs:

1. You are EP against tight 3bettor in MP/LP
2. In EP against against tight 3bettor in blinds
3. In EP against loose 3bettor in MP/LP
4. In EP against loose 3bettor in blinds
5. COvBU v tighty
6. COvBU against loosey
7. MP/LP against tighty in blinds
8. MP/LP against loosey in blinds

how often do regs bet the river for value on dry boards OOP after they cbet a dry flop and the turn goes check, check?

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

1) I've been wondering how to proceed on whiffed flops in a 3b pot. For example EP opens and we 3b from BU with AKs. EP calls and flop is Q73r and he checks. I always seem to feel out of place c-betting here because the pot is larger than usual. What about oop?

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ISF wrote a nice strategy artice on this very subject in his blog, which I'm too lazy to go find and give you a link to.

I AM ABOUT TO MAKE THE JUMP TO 2$ SB 4$ BB UNLIMITED HOLD THEM WHAT IS YOUR ADVICE FOR MAKING THE JUMP? ALSO WHAT HAVE YOU NOTICED IS THE MAJOR DIFFERENCES BETWEEN THE TWO LEVELS?

maybe dumb question...

should you be balancing your 3bets of early pos. raisers (regs only obv) w/ hands like Axs?

If the UIGEA and it's ramifications on marketing were instantly repealed and tons of reliable and easy options for payment were made available and tons of fish came back onto the scene, do you think the FR NLHE would receive more or less of the influx of players than 6-max and why?

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

If the UIGEA and it's ramifications on marketing were instantly repealed and tons of reliable and easy options for payment were made available and tons of fish came back onto the scene, do you think the FR NLHE would receive more or less of the influx of players than 6-max and why?

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6-max gives you more opportunies to take money from weaker players. In full ring you're going to run into more hands when you try to widen your ranges to exploit someone with a very big and easy to exploit leaks.

HU would be a feeding frenzy for months.

god i think my question is really dumb, delete, delete!

I'm pretty sure the answer is yes, and then when I have some 3betting history w/ the player I can add TT-QQ and eventually even more stuff into my range.

amiright?

As a general guideline, VPIP and PFR are "ideally supposed" to ramp down from Button to UTG at a 2:1 ratio. I am finding my ratio to be closer to 3:1 by design as my weakest moneymaking postions are in MP. This rampdown is dramatic from button to MP, and more level from there to UTG.

How exploitable is this?

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

1) I've been wondering how to proceed on whiffed flops in a 3b pot. For example EP opens and we 3b from BU with AKs. EP calls and flop is Q73r and he checks. I always seem to feel out of place c-betting here because the pot is larger than usual. What about oop?

2) Do you tend to 4b with KK/AA. If so, how much over a standard 3b? And what factors determine your decision to either flat or 4b (passive/agg villian, stack sizes, oop/ip)?

Sorry if those questions seem retarded, but those are two things I've run into lately that I've been wondering if I'm making the correct play or not. For #1 I understand the type of villian still ways heavily on our decision, such as we wouldn't want to c-bet here against a station.

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1. Thats sortof an awkward example because you are 3-betting an ep raisor. First of all I usually call pre there. As for what to do on the flop you should check sometimes and bet sometimes, but whenever you bet you should normally bet again on the turn. The major trouble spot that I think you are thinking of is when someone opens late position, and you 3-bet them from the blinds, then miss the flop. Usually in that situation you should just be check folding. Your cbet frequency in 3-bet pots in general should be rather low.

2. At full ring vs unknowns, from a purely practical standpoint, the only hand thats good to 4 bet is AA. People at full ring 3-bet such tight ranges that I believe auto4betting KK or QQ in those situations is usually an overplay. Thats practical, but what we all know is theoretically if you are going to just 4-bet with AA then thats obviously incredibly easy to play against. So long story short, I tend only to 4-bet for value in situations where i could get stacked off against by a wide range.

You need to break down your question a bit more. I'm surprised no one has posted an actual hand. As for 4-bet sizing you should usually do it to an amount that doesn't make you pot committed to call a shove if u were bluffing with like A7o, ie you need to not be getting over 2:1.

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Originally Posted by Deanglow

Tell me what you would do with AA/KK in these 3bet PF spots and your general thought process/standard for flatting big pairs:

1. You are EP against tight 3bettor in MP/LP

call

2. In EP against against tight 3bettor in blinds

call

3. In EP against loose 3bettor in MP/LP

generally call, this one depends heavily on how i'm perceived and what %age of his 3-bet range stacks off

4. In EP against loose 3bettor in blinds

call

5. COvBU v tighty

4b

6. COvBU against loosey

4b

7. MP/LP against tighty in blinds

4b normally

8. MP/LP against loosey in blinds

4b always

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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

how often do regs bet the river for value on dry boards OOP after they cbet a dry flop and the turn goes check, check?

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Well, obviously most of the time they don't have anything and check. So I'm not super sure of your question. I guess I'll interpret it as "How often are they betting for value when they bet in this situation?"

I'd say pretty much 80+% of the time. For them to be bluffing would mean that they are running an elaborate multistreet play, especially if the river didn't change anything. If they were bluffing they'd have bet the turn, yada yada.

That said I bluff in spots like this all the time because I'm pretty sure regs share my perception of the situation. I don't so much do it as the preflop raisor, but heres a situation I LOVE to bluff:

Villain opens MP, I call on button or cutoff. I flop something like a backdoor flush draw or a gutshot, something I'm definitely not going away for one bet with. He bets, I call. He checks, I check. He checks river, I bet, he folds.

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Originally Posted by badgers

maybe dumb question...

should you be balancing your 3bets of early pos. raisers (regs only obv) w/ hands like Axs?

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Yes from an ABCD theorem standpoint you should be.

Breaking it down, you start by defining the range of hands you can profitably call with in position. This would be something like:

22+, 56s+, T8s+, AJs+, KQs

Then you take the hands that you are 3-betting for value and calling a shove with, something like:

QQ+ AK (maybe since he's ep youll call a lot in this spot, so we'll shorten it to KK+ AKs).

So, KK+ AKs is 20 combinations of hands. If you wanted to have an unexploitable 3-bet bluff frequency, you'd be 3-betting 2/3 of the time as a bluff, so now we have 40 combinations of hands to 3-bet as a bluff. These hands are chosen from the hands right below the margin of hands we could call, to refresh your memory these were:

22+, 56s+, T8s+, AJs+, KQs

So we choose 40 combinations of hands like 97s, 45s, KTs, ATs, with which to 3-bet as a bluff and our final ABCD ranges become.

A. KK+ AK
B. 22+, 56s+, T8s+, AJs+, KQs
C. 40 combos of hands like 97s, 45s, KTs, ATs
D. rest

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

If the UIGEA and it's ramifications on marketing were instantly repealed and tons of reliable and easy options for payment were made available and tons of fish came back onto the scene, do you think the FR NLHE would receive more or less of the influx of players than 6-max and why?

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probably the same ratio as ever. Newcomers would see six max as the most popular game and go there, but a certain percentage would be used to live games and go to fr.

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Originally Posted by badgers

god i think my question is really dumb, delete, delete!

I'm pretty sure the answer is yes, and then when I have some 3betting history w/ the player I can add TT-QQ and eventually even more stuff into my range.

amiright?

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no 3-betting TT and JJ there is pretty bad

see my post

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Originally Posted by cardsman1992

As a general guideline, VPIP and PFR are "ideally supposed" to ramp down from Button to UTG at a 2:1 ratio. I am finding my ratio to be closer to 3:1 by design as my weakest moneymaking postions are in MP. This rampdown is dramatic from button to MP, and more level from there to UTG.

How exploitable is this?

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sounds exploitIVE to me

my ratio is someting like 2.5:1 or 3:1

I figure the only ones noticing I play a ton more hands from HJ, CO and BU are the regs who are in the blinds against me....

Question 2--How often are you floating a standard reg TAG running 14/10/2 (or thereabouts)...

I am seeing people with 20/16/3 FR stats being called LAGs now, do you feel the games are tight enough now to justify this definition?

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Originally Posted by cardsman1992

Question 2--How often are you floating a standard reg TAG running 14/10/2 (or thereabouts)...

I am seeing people with 20/16/3 FR stats being called LAGs now, do you feel the games are tight enough now to justify this definition?

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i don't really like the lag term period. they are just tags who play a bit looser

I also don't really understand how to answer your question. A lot i guess? I mean if i have any sort of draw or overs or something I usually don't go away for one bet in a hu pot. As far as floating with absolutely nothing, its not something i tend to do.

That does answer it in a way. To elaborate, will you call a pot sized cbet as a "float"? Do you float with second or bottom pair (ie you hold 78dd and board is Q38r one diamond)?

There is a noticeable difference to me between floating and cbetting stds in 100NL as opposed to 50NL. That being said, I think I change my play subconsciously when I play 100NL and become much more of a station....meaning when they try to raise me off my draw I call more than I should, etc.

I get raised far less frequently at $50.

wow sick goot answers tnx rent.

I was thinking about opening up my range to include stuff like TT when players are adjusting to what they see as ridiculously wide 3betting, not as an overall strategy. When I've been thinking about this I've always come to the conclusion that it would be better to start to merge and just threebet lots for value if they're going to start to adjust by calling more of my 3bets. With position as well it wouldn't be too difficult to control the pot in some spots as well in that sort of situation, it's probs better to continue to polarise from the blinds. Am I on the right sort of track with this?

Thnx again for the answers though.

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Originally Posted by Renton

(ie if he calls absurd amounts of 3-bets then i'll depolarize my range obviously).

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found it.

I guess it's prolly less goot vs. an EP raiser but if he thinks I'm crazy is that still a good stategy?

I'll think of some more questions later prolly cos this thread owns.

you ignored my question. okay here goes again
im planning on jumping to 2/4 at the end of the month
i have a solid 200NL wr what changes to my game do you reccomend i make in order to make the jump smoother for me? also what do you notice are the major differences between these levels?

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Originally Posted by reDZill4

you ignored my question. okay here goes again
im planning on jumping to 2/4 at the end of the month
i have a solid 200NL wr what changes to my game do you reccomend i make in order to make the jump smoother for me? also what do you notice are the major differences between these levels?

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i'd play basically your normal game and just try to adjust to that comes at you. I'm pretty sure 2/4 is pretty similar to 1/2 these days. Just play it like 1/2 except way more regs. I'd tighten up a little preflop and mix up your game considerably more considering the player pool constricts considerably.

under what circumstances do you want to quit your FR sessions ?
stop win/loss limit, total hands or hours?

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Originally Posted by Renton

One MAJOR topic that didn't really generate a ton of discussion was the abcd theorem post I made a while back (see digest sticky).

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Hmmmm.... Could be a totally stupid/pointless idea, but here it is anyways. What if we were to post up some hands and work together through the ABCD ranges for both the hero and the villina as a group (or have the next person after the hand to create the ranges, then we critique), then from that logically discuss what the heroes action should be and why? I mean, imo, this is really what a beginner needs. But this would also help nearly everyone else in making sure their ranges are correct and they are making the move appropriate to that range.

In nearly every hand history posted here, the discussion is limited and the regs just state what they would do. Sure there are some that take the time to explain why, but that can sometimes be too few and far between. Also, one thing I like to do is take a situation and ask what my play would be if some factors were changed, and that is generally overlooked.

Anyways, just an idea. Thoughts?

Can I come over and rail you for an evening? Seriously. I'll bring the beer (or whatever you want to drink/eat).

How do you make money? TIA

So the questions went downhill...

1. what's the sickest read-based bluff you have made at FR?
2. Same question but value bet too.

3.when you've decided to defend your blinds by calling OOP, with what frequency do you use the following defense techniques (you're answer must add up to 100%):

-C/r Bluffing flop
-Calling Flop then leading turn with air
-Leading Flop
-Do Nothing, c/f flop

4) How often are you 2 barreling but not 3 barreling an opponent with a missed hand, both OOP and IP, and assuming the board bricked on the turn when you 2 barreled and the river too? Assume a random Tagfish at midstakes FR and you raised preflop and cbet. Also, when are you determining your decision?

While reading NLHE T&P, I ran across the section regarding blocking bets, and it briefly touched on c/cing and b/fing lines. I believe I understand it, but would like some conformation.

Are we generally c/c against aggressive players as they have a higher bluff frequency? Obv they will be bluffing hands our marginal hands beat so our showdown value increases? Also if you were to take a b/f line against an aggressive player, their would be times when they raise our bet as a bluff and we are forced to lay down the best hand.

However, we should be more inclined to take a b/f line against a more passive player as they will call with weaker hands. Hands they wouldn't put in a bet with if we took a c/c line. And we can feel fairly confident we are beat if they come over the top of our bet.

Is this a fairly accurate understanding?? What sort of factors am I overlooking here?

Also, I was mainly referring to river play. How does this differ on other streets (which I'm assuming it does as we have other things we must factor in such as protecting our hand, getting better hands to fold, and worse hands to call)?

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Originally Posted by pokerfan

under what circumstances do you want to quit your FR sessions ?
stop win/loss limit, total hands or hours?

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extremely varies, usually lazy

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

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Originally Posted by Renton

One MAJOR topic that didn't really generate a ton of discussion was the abcd theorem post I made a while back (see digest sticky).

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Hmmmm.... Could be a totally stupid/pointless idea, but here it is anyways. What if we were to post up some hands and work together through the ABCD ranges for both the hero and the villina as a group (or have the next person after the hand to create the ranges, then we critique), then from that logically discuss what the heroes action should be and why? I mean, imo, this is really what a beginner needs. But this would also help nearly everyone else in making sure their ranges are correct and they are making the move appropriate to that range.

In nearly every hand history posted here, the discussion is limited and the regs just state what they would do. Sure there are some that take the time to explain why, but that can sometimes be too few and far between. Also, one thing I like to do is take a situation and ask what my play would be if some factors were changed, and that is generally overlooked.

Anyways, just an idea. Thoughts?

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i'd agree

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Originally Posted by GatorJH

Can I come over and rail you for an evening? Seriously. I'll bring the beer (or whatever you want to drink/eat).

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may be down for this

i'm totally out of the poker mode right now though, so it may be a while

(i haven't played in weeks)

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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

So the questions went downhill...

1. what's the sickest read-based bluff you have made at FR?
2. Same question but value bet too.
don't remember either of these. I make all in bluffs all the time, but i always do it to make them fold weak hands, not strong ones, so no one bluff sticks out. As far as value bet, I three barreled all in in a reraised pot with Q9 on a Qxxxx board and got called by worse from a tough reg at 3/6 recently.


3.when you've decided to defend your blinds by calling OOP, with what frequency do you use the following defense techniques (you're answer must add up to 100%):

-C/r Bluffing flop 20
-Calling Flop then leading turn with air
-Leading Flop 20
-Do Nothing, c/f flop 60

4) How often are you 2 barreling but not 3 barreling an opponent with a missed hand, both OOP and IP, and assuming the board bricked on the turn when you 2 barreled and the river too? Assume a random Tagfish at midstakes FR and you raised preflop and cbet. Also, when are you determining your decision?

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Not really sure, but there are a lot of spots where I'll never just fire 1 and done. In those situations I am planning to bet a blank turn. 3-barreling should generally be a plan from the start as well, and as a rule, if you have to 3-barrel on blanks for a cbet to be profitable, then chances are u shouldn't be cbetting.

Anyways, its ironic you mentioned the questions were going downhill before your post, because I believe these questions are kinda pointless. Rather than dwelling on frequencies, you should be more concerned with finding spots that are good to do these things. Only once you've found that suitable situation can you even consider frequencies. And then those frequencies are generally chosen out of a balance between the following things:

1. Do I want my play to be unexploitable?

2. Do I want my play to be maximally exploitive and therefore exploitable?

The former means that your frequency should be low enough that villain can't come over the top with total air and show a profit. The latter means they can, but then you can have a plan for how to deal with that. This creates situations at high stakes games where player A bets, player B raises as a bluff, player A 3-bets as a bluff, player B shoves.

3. How am I perceived?

4. How do I want to be perceived?

5. General randomization.

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

While reading NLHE T&P, I ran across the section regarding blocking bets, and it briefly touched on c/cing and b/fing lines. I believe I understand it, but would like some conformation.

Are we generally c/c against aggressive players as they have a higher bluff frequency? Obv they will be bluffing hands our marginal hands beat so our showdown value increases? Also if you were to take a b/f line against an aggressive player, their would be times when they raise our bet as a bluff and we are forced to lay down the best hand.

However, we should be more inclined to take a b/f line against a more passive player as they will call with weaker hands. Hands they wouldn't put in a bet with if we took a c/c line. And we can feel fairly confident we are beat if they come over the top of our bet.

Is this a fairly accurate understanding?? What sort of factors am I overlooking here?

Also, I was mainly referring to river play. How does this differ on other streets (which I'm assuming it does as we have other things we must factor in such as protecting our hand, getting better hands to fold, and worse hands to call)?

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Yeah that seems accurate. One thing you are possibly overlooking is the actual strength of your hand.

For example if its the river and you have the nuts, betting becomes obviously a much higher ev then if its the river and you have TPGK. When someone shows me a brag hand where theres a psb left in the stacks and he checked a set to this guy on the river who shoved with a busted draw, he thinks his play is so sick. But in reality his play was bad because he was effectively "wasting" the value of his hand by simply choosing to bluff catch with it. In checking the river he was basically saying "my hand is worth the same as second pair." If this sounds kinda familiar its just another vein of the ABCD logic. A hands become better for value betting, B and even sometimes C hands become bluffcatchers, D becomes bluffs.

You are gonna need to break down your second question more specifically.

Also on another note, there are tons of river spots where b/f >c/f>c/c . Finding this spots and acting accordingly will increase your winrate considerably.

ARE YOU HAPPY?

Concerning playing the player, I have a few assessments and am wondering if they are accurate.

Concerning playing againnst a loose player preflop (passive or aggressive), I understand that we will also loosen up our game in position to take advantage of their tendency to call/bet with weaker holdings. The one thing I'm wondering is preflop without a made hand. I understand that with a big PP (JJ+ish) we can successfully raise preflop for value. However, I always feel uncormfortable raising a very loose player preflop with hands such as AK,AQ even though I understand they are well ahead of villians range. My reasoning is fairly straight-forward. They are aggressive and could potentionally shove preflop, which I would feel even more uneasy calling (if that would even be correct), or I miss on the flop and have to give it up to their aggressiveness, or can't push them off their weak holding due to their calling tendencies.

I've read that with large unpaired hand such as AK against a loose opener we will profit more in the long run by flatting and seeing if we catch on the flop then playing accordingly valuebetting the hell out of them if we catch and getting out if we don't. I understand that against a loose limper we would tend to raise with our unpaired holdings as well as an isolation move instead of a value move. Is this the correct way to play against a loose opponent?

the most successful player at your limit and on your site (according to your pt3 data to date) starts turning up to your left at all your tables.
best thing to do about it? opportunity to pwn?

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Originally Posted by Renton

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Originally Posted by badgers

maybe dumb question...

should you be balancing your 3bets of early pos. raisers (regs only obv) w/ hands like Axs?

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Yes from an ABCD theorem standpoint you should be.

Breaking it down, you start by defining the range of hands you can profitably call with in position. This would be something like:

22+, 56s+, T8s+, AJs+, KQs

Then you take the hands that you are 3-betting for value and calling a shove with, something like:

QQ+ AK (maybe since he's ep youll call a lot in this spot, so we'll shorten it to KK+ AKs).

So, KK+ AKs is 20 combinations of hands. If you wanted to have an unexploitable 3-bet bluff frequency, you'd be 3-betting 2/3 of the time as a bluff, so now we have 40 combinations of hands to 3-bet as a bluff. These hands are chosen from the hands right below the margin of hands we could call, to refresh your memory these were:

22+, 56s+, T8s+, AJs+, KQs

So we choose 40 combinations of hands like 97s, 45s, KTs, ATs, with which to 3-bet as a bluff and our final ABCD ranges become.

A. KK+ AK
B. 22+, 56s+, T8s+, AJs+, KQs
C. 40 combos of hands like 97s, 45s, KTs, ATs
D. rest

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As I understand the math behind optimal bluffing frequencies, the percent of the time you would be 3-betting as a bluff would depend on the size of your opponent's raise and the size of your 3-bet. Could you elaborate a bit?

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Concerning playing the player, I have a few assessments and am wondering if they are accurate.

Concerning playing againnst a loose player preflop (passive or aggressive), I understand that we will also loosen up our game in position to take advantage of their tendency to call/bet with weaker holdings. The one thing I'm wondering is preflop without a made hand. I understand that with a big PP (JJ+ish) we can successfully raise preflop for value. However, I always feel uncormfortable raising a very loose player preflop with hands such as AK,AQ even though I understand they are well ahead of villians range. My reasoning is fairly straight-forward. They are aggressive and could potentionally shove preflop, which I would feel even more uneasy calling (if that would even be correct), or I miss on the flop and have to give it up to their aggressiveness, or can't push them off their weak holding due to their calling tendencies.

I've read that with large unpaired hand such as AK against a loose opener we will profit more in the long run by flatting and seeing if we catch on the flop then playing accordingly valuebetting the hell out of them if we catch and getting out if we don't. I understand that against a loose limper we would tend to raise with our unpaired holdings as well as an isolation move instead of a value move. Is this the correct way to play against a loose opponent?

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the short answer is u should tend to 3-bet with hands you are happy to get it all in pre with (usually QQ+ AK) and call with anything else that u feel is good enough to call. However, if u feel like u have a handle on their calling and 3-betting frequencies, it can be correct to 3-betfold with 99-JJ AQ type hands. Its very tough to pick up a definitive read that makes that so, however.

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Originally Posted by daven

the most successful player at your limit and on your site (according to your pt3 data to date) starts turning up to your left at all your tables.
best thing to do about it? opportunity to pwn?

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uh... i doubt you'll be pwning anyone good who is to your left. Your best bet would be to avoid confrontations with him if at all possible, especially postflop confrontations. You'd do this by narrowing yoru raising range when they have position on you, and by 4-bet bluffing them a lot when they reraise, as opposed to calling their threebets and trying to play them postflop oop.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

As I understand the math behind optimal bluffing frequencies, the percent of the time you would be 3-betting as a bluff would depend on the size of your opponent's raise and the size of your 3-bet. Could you elaborate a bit?

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Well, i was being approximate.

Basically first you have to establish a precept that a 3-bet bluff is profitable at all. Then your optimal frequency would be roughly twice as often as your nut range, or 2/3 of the time you 3-bet.

By optimal I mean unexploitable. This is calculated by determining the maximum amount you can 3-bet without giving villain a 4-bet bluff opportunity. Theoretically, assuming an 8-24-54 bet progression, a 4-bet bluff needs to work 66% of the time.

Now, obviously the 2:1 bluff/nut ratio is somewhat conservative, seeing as villain isn't going to be 4-bet bluffing you every single time. If u wanted to be maximally exploitive, u'd 3-bet as a bluff far more often, and not switch to the game theory range until you notice adjustment.

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Originally Posted by Renton

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

As I understand the math behind optimal bluffing frequencies, the percent of the time you would be 3-betting as a bluff would depend on the size of your opponent's raise and the size of your 3-bet. Could you elaborate a bit?

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Well, i was being approximate.

Basically first you have to establish a precept that a 3-bet bluff is profitable at all. Then your optimal frequency would be roughly twice as often as your nut range, or 2/3 of the time you 3-bet.

By optimal I mean unexploitable. This is calculated by determining the maximum amount you can 3-bet without giving villain a 4-bet bluff opportunity. Theoretically, assuming an 8-24-54 bet progression, a 4-bet bluff needs to work 66% of the time.

Now, obviously the 2:1 bluff/nut ratio is somewhat conservative, seeing as villain isn't going to be 4-bet bluffing you every single time. If u wanted to be maximally exploitive, u'd 3-bet as a bluff far more often, and not switch to the game theory range until you notice adjustment.

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Ok, nm. Wasn't meaning to nit-pick, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

Nice thread btw.

I still struggle to play TT and JJ well in some spots. What is your standard play against different types of EP raisers (excluding nits obviously), what are you looking for when deciding to 3bet vs coldcall?

Also isn't KK+, AKs 16 combos of hands? =)
+1

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Originally Posted by pgil

I still struggle to play TT and JJ well in some spots. What is your standard play against different types of EP raisers (excluding nits obviously), what are you looking for when deciding to 3bet vs coldcall?

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pretty much always call

What things do you consider when deciding whether or not to 3bet 99-JJ when you're in LP or in the blinds when there's been an EP/MP raiser and one or more callers?

More likely to call in position, and 3-bet from the blinds? What kind of villains are you less likely to 3bet in this spot?

What do you think is the best way to improve your own "game" the most and what has worked for you?

For example, playing six max, playing heads up, watching videos, reading books, or a mix of all of the above.

This is dying out. =(... Probably one of the most helpful threads in a while imo. Does anyone have an interesting Hand Histories they can through up for dissecting ABCD style?!?

Also Renton, thanks a ton for all your doing in this forum as well as this thread. I know it must take a sizable amount of time to read through everything here and offer advice. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by d0zer

What things do you consider when deciding whether or not to 3bet 99-JJ when you're in LP or in the blinds when there's been an EP/MP raiser and one or more callers?

More likely to call in position, and 3-bet from the blinds? What kind of villains are you less likely to 3bet in this spot?

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i usually call in all cases except when i for sure can stack off to a 4-bet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gametight

What do you think is the best way to improve your own "game" the most and what has worked for you?

For example, playing six max, playing heads up, watching videos, reading books, or a mix of all of the above.

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honestly, i have no idea how to improve. its extremely difficult to do imo because in poker its tough to know when u are making a mistake or when u are running bad.

I guess coaching helps. Reading 2p2 for like 5 hours a day helps. Knowing players who are way better than you is also a very big help.

Why do I consistently win money at full ring and lose money at 6-max?

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

This is dying out. =(... Probably one of the most helpful threads in a while imo. Does anyone have an interesting Hand Histories they can through up for dissecting ABCD style?!?

Also Renton, thanks a ton for all your doing in this forum as well as this thread. I know it must take a sizable amount of time to read through everything here and offer advice. Thanks.

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np

and if u start that thread i'll gladly contribute to it. I don't want to start it because if i cherry pick hands that fit neatly into the theorem then nothing gets learned.

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

Why do I consistently win money at full ring and lose money at 6-max?

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And for that matter, what do you consider more profitable for a decent player? (HU/6m/FR/SnG/MTT)

While reading Ace on the River (Barry Greenstein) he presented a hand history and analysis that I was curious about.

$25/$50 blinds.

You open for $150 in LP with KQs and are called by only the BB. Flop of : Ts Td 8c

Villian checks. You bet $300. Villian calls.

Turn : Kh [Ts Td 8c Kh]

Villian checks. Hero ...

Okay so he goes into analysis saying that after your c-bet on the flop you believe he has Tx and is trying to trap you into hanging yourself on the turn by probably c/ring your bet. He said that "you" come up with an idea to just check after the turn and call a river bet, hoping to induce a bluff on the river since you showed weakness on the turn. And that by doing this you don't risk being raised out of the pot.

The above is the line I typically take in this situation. However, Barry says that it is probably best to bet an amount on the turn to define your hand. So that if you are raised then you can correctly assume he does in fact have Tx (or another hand that has you beaten) and you can lay it down.

While I understand that concept, I don't understand why we would do it here, or if we even should. It feels to me that we are being counterproductive in this situation. First off, Tx isn't the only hand in his range, and while it weighs heavy in a range that c/c,c/r here, he could be doing this with other hands (maybe Tx, JQ, 97, J9, KQ, AA?). Also there is a chance that he could bluff c/r here. So if you bet here there are a slew of hands that you give the pot to that you have beat if only he chooses to c/r the turn here with a good portion of his range.

However, if you check the turn and call the river, you not only get value out of weaker hands that feel you don't have much (Kx, 8x, QQ, JJ, air), you also get to draw to the effective nuts (2 outs for a K), and you lose approx. the same amount of money had you bet the turn and been raised, when he does in fact show up with a hand that beats yours.

So which line are you generally taking here and why? I believe the check turn, call river here is a good ways better than betting the turn to see "where you stand".

Also, as a side note, what kind of action are you taking if you do bet the turn and instead of raising he simply calls and leads the river. Say the river is a blank 2h. Are we folding to any bet here? I would think so as the only hand that bets here is ahead I believe.

Thanks.

i think i'm betting or checking that turn depending on reads.

vs an aware tag or a huge passive station its probably a bet, vs an unknown or someone who is tricky, or someone who is very straightforward, tis a check

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renton

i'm totally out of the poker mode right now though, so it may be a while
(i haven't played in weeks)

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What's your take on turning pro? Are you moving on to something else or are you just recharging your batteries?