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I was playing in a free roll poker game, was down to about 300 out of 500 players, first place had 17k I had 5k. I was dealer and everyone else folded apart from the guy with 17k who went all in.
I had 8-8 preflop and called.
I got beat he had J - J.
I guess this was the wrong call in hindsight, but I thought in a game of two players pre flop 8-8 would have been reasonably strong.
Was I wrong?
can someone explain why?
Many Thanks
Blind sizes are important here. If blinds were > 600 then I think your call was fine, if blinds between 300 and 600 it's questionable, but probably ok. If blinds less than 300 then it was wrong. This is do with something called m, basically how many more orbits you can play without running out of chips from the blinds. When m<10 it's about time to gamble...Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckySlevin
Reason. He's chip leader. That feels good. He is happy to risk no longer being chip leader. Means that he most likely has a hand that is at least ok. Think about what cards he is likely to have, that's his range. Consider how well 88 fares against this range.
In this situation, it's likely that his range is pocket pairs >77, or something like AQ/AK.
Against 77 you are ahead, against AK or AQ it is 50-50. Against everything else you are way behind. You need a far stronger hand to call an all-in than to go all-in yourself - cos there is no bluff element.
Hope that makes some sense!
welcome to ftr.
It does make sense it was very helpful thanks. I'll bear in mind your advice. It was very interesting to learn about m, and I hadn't come accross that concept before - but it makes a lot of sense and will be useful to bear in mind in future.
So if I can't withstand 10 blinds and have a 8-8 or higher pre flop I should go all in.
Also would you mind answering this... I held my time at the start of the tournament but was soon conscious that everyone else had nearly doubly my chips, and eventually got Q K pre flop and decided to go all in, I was down on chips and thought with a table of about six had a decent chance of getting somewhere.
I did win the hand and got a boost of 6k from 1.9k which was great.
But (1) was that a good hand to go all in pre flop, and (2) should I have been influenced (as I was) by the fact that almost everyone had double my chips?
Thanks again
Next you do this, ask yourself whether or not you want to risk going out on a coin flip. Because many times, that's what it's going to be - your low/mid pocket pair to the villain's two over-cards.
I see what you mean, yes I've certainly learnt something here hopefully I won't make the same mistake again. I've only been playing poker for a week and am learning all the time - thanks for your advice :)
Also did I make the right move with Q/K earlier in the game?
If you want to learn more about M, you should read Harrington on Hold'em, Vol. 2. It talks about M in some details.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckySlevin
Your thinking on this is slightly wrong. When you started the hand there weren't just two players there were (most likely) 9 or 10. The chances that one of the other 8 or 9 players picking up a higher PP than your 8's is a LOT greater than if there were just two of you at the table playing heads-up poker.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckySlevin
You can't say you are in a game of "two players" when there are 9-10 at the table.
You can't take a simple statement here and use it globally. With EVERY poker hand there are 4-5 variables that will all generally lead you to the right decision to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckySlevin
For example, you are on the button, have an M of 8 and look down to see pocket 9's. By the time the betting gets to you there has been a raise and a push. Barring a read that both bettors are total idiots you should fold your pocket 9's every time in this situation.
One of the pitfalls of playing in a Free Roll is that there are TONS of maniacs who will go all-in with any two cards at the very beginning of the tournament thinking that they will either double up or be done quickly (or they are just plain idiots, which is also the case sometimes).Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckySlevin
In a tournament like this you shouldn't worry about the fact that there are people who have way more chips than you as it means they were most likely on the positive side of the early shove fests. Just play solid poker and you have a good shot at getting those chips from them.
Regarding the KQ hand it is almost impossible for us to let you know if that was a good push as we don't know the other 4-5 variables that would determine if the push was good or not. Since you won the hand I would say it was a good push at that time :).
Also, if you want to stick to tournament play I would VERY VERY VERY highly recommend you go get Harrington on Hold-em and read BOTH Vol I and Vol II. Those two books are a must read for any novice player who wants to play No Limit Hold-em tournaments.
Finally, welcome to FTR. If you stick around and read some posts here I guarantee your game will get better.
One thing you may want to do is to do a search for all of Robb's posts in the beginners forum. He is one of the best posters here at explaining things in a very easy to understand format for new players to understand.
Good Luck and again, welcome to FTR.
Thanks very much very useful comments I'm loving this forum.
I'm sure too it will only improve my game.
Thanks again
Just to touch on a few things. First off, I totally agree with everyone in saying that if you want to improve your tourney game then you need to go buy "Harrington on Hold'em" series and read them like they are your bible.
Second just to break down "m" real quick it's your [stack size / (small blind + big blind + antes)]. And your m is generally your guiding force in how aggressive you play in particular instances. Reason being that if you have high m you aren't in any danger to accumulate chips just yet, therefore you can somewhat "relax". If you have a low m then you are in danger of being put out so you have to look for a +ev spot to get your chips in.
So regarding the 88 hand and the other 4-5 variables that Gator is referring to makes it hard to decide if the call was correct or not without the hand history. As dozer said, it depends on your stack size in relation to the blinds, the payout structure, any reads, among other things. Same goes for the KQ hand (although I'm willing to bet it was an incorrect shove given how early the tourney was.)
Just keep at it and keep studying/reading here and your game will grow exponentially.
Good luck.
Thanks again. I am improving I can sense it and feel it in my game. I'm still not good enough to win any free roll tournaments but i'm getting closer.
I entered a full tilt free roll for UK residents today there were 1023 runners, I'm trying to start a bankroll from a free roll and see how far I can get it just for a bit of fun... Anyway I ended up being placed 73rd which I'm not too dissapointed with, payout was first 27 places so I'm a little sad I didn't make it but can't complain as I've only been playing for a week.
The hand that cost me follows... can you tell me if you think I did the right or wrong thing please. I've set myself the task of setting to a strict process and not getting emotionally involved in any hands, and I think I stuck to my process and made the right descision, but I would love to know If I'm right in this or if I'm wrong, because if it was the wrong descision then I won't be playing it again!
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I was doing quite well until the following happened.
Me Vs High chip player. Everyone else folded after he raised, I was on the button so by the time it was my turn to decide what to do it was just me and him left. He raised 2k pre flop and I call.
I'm holding 10-10
Flop comes out : 5 7 3
He raised 3k (he's holding about 52k in chips) I have 17k of chips left, most others have about 30k so I'm conscious of wanting to capitalise on any advantage. I call.
He re-raised to my total chip count.
Now at this point I'm thinking I've got to be in with a good shout here... so I go all in.
Turn and river complete and I lose.
I had lost after the flop, let alone the turn and river.
He was holding 5 and 7. and had two of a kind.
I'm fairly sure I made the right call here, that on the probabability front It was the right thing to do, but i'd like to know if I did or not because if I didn't then it's a serious flaw in my thinking and I need to make sure it doesn't happen again, as it just cost me a payout finishing place!
I'm pleased that I managed to stick to the PROCESS today and not lose my head when I lost chips, and one point I went from 16k to 1k halfway through the tournament but by keeping a cool head and sticking to the PROCESS (basically just straight thinking on each individual hand) was able to re galvanise it back up to 16k until that unfortunate hand happened above.
one day I will get something out of one of these freerolls !
Well I'm glad you did pretty well in the freeroll beating out 9/10s of the field. I actually started my first Bankroll by placing second in a freeroll on UltimateBet winning $7. In around 2 months time I turned that into $400 and cashed out as I needed the money.
But back to the hand advice. Uhhh we can't really be sure because we don't know the blinds, and you made some sort of mistake in telling the hand. You said he bet flop and you called, then he raised. Action can't go like that.
If you truly want help on specific hands, then you need to make sure that your pokersite is saving your hand histories to some folder (should be in one of the options settings at the top of the poker lobby). And then you can go to that folder on your computer and pull up hand histories and post them here. It leaves out no information and makes it a whole lot easier for us to disect the action and determine whether you play was correct or not.
Good luck.
Thanks I'll check that and set it up :)