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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_...adron_Collider
discuss?
There was an article in the local Newspaper about this thing. Of course it was creating a Doomsday picture, because Obv, thats what newspapers do.That said, It seems something as powerful as this thing is could be unimaginable dangerous to all of us.
here's the AP article.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...MPLATE=DEFAULT
Jun 28, 3:08 PM EDT
Scientists: Nothing to fear from atom-smasher
By DOUGLAS BIRCH
MEYRIN, Switzerland (AP) -- The most powerful atom-smasher ever built could make some bizarre discoveries, such as invisible matter or extra dimensions in space, after it is switched on in August.
But some critics fear the Large Hadron Collider could exceed physicists' wildest conjectures: Will it spawn a black hole that could swallow Earth? Or spit out particles that could turn the planet into a hot dead clump?
Ridiculous, say scientists at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, known by its French initials CERN - some of whom have been working for a generation on the $5.8 billion collider, or LHC.
"Obviously, the world will not end when the LHC switches on," said project leader Lyn Evans.
David Francis, a physicist on the collider's huge ATLAS particle detector, smiled when asked whether he worried about black holes and hypothetical killer particles known as strangelets.
"If I thought that this was going to happen, I would be well away from here," he said.
The collider basically consists of a ring of supercooled magnets 17 miles in circumference attached to huge barrel-shaped detectors. The ring, which straddles the French and Swiss border, is buried 330 feet underground.
The machine, which has been called the largest scientific experiment in history, isn't expected to begin test runs until August, and ramping up to full power could take months. But once it is working, it is expected to produce some startling findings.
Scientists plan to hunt for signs of the invisible "dark matter" and "dark energy" that make up more than 96 percent of the universe, and hope to glimpse the elusive Higgs boson, a so-far undiscovered particle thought to give matter its mass.
The collider could find evidence of extra dimensions, a boon for superstring theory, which holds that quarks, the particles that make up atoms, are infinitesimal vibrating strings.
The theory could resolve many of physics' unanswered questions, but requires about 10 dimensions - far more than the three spatial dimensions our senses experience.
The safety of the collider, which will generate energies seven times higher than its most powerful rival, at Fermilab near Chicago, has been debated for years. The physicist Martin Rees has estimated the chance of an accelerator producing a global catastrophe at one in 50 million - long odds, to be sure, but about the same as winning some lotteries.
By contrast, a CERN team this month issued a report concluding that there is "no conceivable danger" of a cataclysmic event. The report essentially confirmed the findings of a 2003 CERN safety report, and a panel of five prominent scientists not affiliated with CERN, including one Nobel laureate, endorsed its conclusions.
Critics of the LHC filed a lawsuit in a Hawaiian court in March seeking to block its startup, alleging that there was "a significant risk that ... operation of the Collider may have unintended consequences which could ultimately result in the destruction of our planet."
One of the plaintiffs, Walter L. Wagner, a physicist and lawyer, said Wednesday CERN's safety report, released June 20, "has several major flaws," and his views on the risks of using the particle accelerator had not changed.
On Tuesday, U.S. Justice Department lawyers representing the Department of Energy and the National Science Foundation filed a motion to dismiss the case.
The two agencies have contributed $531 million to building the collider, and the NSF has agreed to pay $87 million of its annual operating costs. Hundreds of American scientists will participate in the research.
The lawyers called the plaintiffs' allegations "extraordinarily speculative," and said "there is no basis for any conceivable threat" from black holes or other objects the LHC might produce. A hearing on the motion is expected in late July or August.
In rebutting doomsday scenarios, CERN scientists point out that cosmic rays have been bombarding the earth, and triggering collisions similar to those planned for the collider, since the solar system formed 4.5 billion years ago.
And so far, Earth has survived.
"The LHC is only going to reproduce what nature does every second, what it has been doing for billions of years," said John Ellis, a British theoretical physicist at CERN.
Critics like Wagner have said the collisions caused by accelerators could be more hazardous than those of cosmic rays.
Both may produce micro black holes, subatomic versions of cosmic black holes - collapsed stars whose gravity fields are so powerful that they can suck in planets and other stars.
But micro black holes produced by cosmic ray collisions would likely be traveling so fast they would pass harmlessly through the earth.
Micro black holes produced by a collider, the skeptics theorize, would move more slowly and might be trapped inside the earth's gravitational field - and eventually threaten the planet.
Ellis said doomsayers assume that the collider will create micro black holes in the first place, which he called unlikely. And even if they appeared, he said, they would instantly evaporate, as predicted by the British physicist Stephen Hawking.
As for strangelets, CERN scientists point out that they have never been proven to exist. They said that even if these particles formed inside the Collider they would quickly break down.
When the LHC is finally at full power, two beams of protons will race around the huge ring 11,000 times a second in opposite directions. They will travel in two tubes about the width of fire hoses, speeding through a vacuum that is colder and emptier than outer space.
Their trajectory will be curved by supercooled magnets - to guide the beams around the rings and prevent the packets of protons from cutting through the surrounding magnets like a blowtorch.
The paths of these beams will cross, and a few of the protons in them will collide, at a series of cylindrical detectors along the ring. The two largest detectors are essentially huge digital cameras, each weighing thousands of tons, capable of taking millions of snapshots a second.
Each year the detectors will generate 15 petabytes of data, the equivalent of a stack of CDs 12 miles tall. The data will require a high speed global network of computers for analysis.
Wagner and others filed a lawsuit to halt operation of the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider, or RHIC, at the Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York state in 1999. The courts dismissed the suit.
The leafy campus of CERN, a short drive from the shores of Lake Geneva, hardly seems like ground zero for doomsday. And locals don't seem overly concerned. Thousands attended an open house here this spring.
"There is a huge army of scientists who know what they are talking about and are sleeping quite soundly as far as concerns the LHC," said project leader Evans.
© 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
LOL... thumbs up level... or epic failure.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhappy333
damn u and your interesting articles!
"the chance of this happening is like you winning the major prize on the lottery 3 weeks in succession; the problem is that people believe it is possible to win the lottery 3 weeks in succession." <---- this made me lol.
i dont recall the numbers specifically, but the reason the hadron collider will not tear a hole in the fabric of the universe or many other doomsdays scenarios is because the power it requires do such is not wielded by this collider. in fact, i believe that it may be that in order to perform many of the 'miracles' suggested here we would need more power than is found in the entire solar system. dont quote me on that though.
also micro black holes arent a problem since they are unstable and will annihilate before they come in contact with anything else.
this thing is fucking awesome. i hope so much that they discover amazing things, like strangelets. shit we think stuff is weird now, not even close to what they theorize is out there. also it would be nice to discover dark matter/energy since they've been trying to with no success for decades.
and did they say that it was over only half a billion to fund this? if so thats the most ridiculous thing ive ever heard and im not joking. the greatest scientific project that will likely greatly aid in every branch of science known takes a back seat so far behind that its not even comparable to war. if our govt funded science over the last few decades like they fund retarded shit we'd all be living beyond a century and in virtual reality and have personal robots and all this great stuff.
god i hate war. not because im a bleeding heart (fuck people) but because im selfish
Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
hear, hear!
Even if they do fuck up and turn the entire earth into a black hole everything in our solar system would go on as usual. The gravitational pull only depends on the mass so the only difference would be that our planet has contracted into an increadibly small point. None of the other planets would notice anything and we'd continue in our orbit around the sun as usual.
We would have created the most pathetic black hole in the universe. At least that's something.
This would be pretty funny for any visiting civilization in the future, since it would be pretty obvious we were an intelligent specie, but all we left behind us was the tiniest black hole in the universe and a blue-white-red flag on a small moon orbiting around it.
The fears that have built up regarding the LHC are the same fears that were once had prior to the first A-Bomb explosion. Many thought one possibility was that the atomic particles would not cease to split. I'm not worried at all.
I am extremely optimistic of the results from these experiments. When scientists from CERN flip the switch, it will be known as the moment when humans took a giant leap forwards in science. Unfortunately, it will be a very long time after the green light on this experiment before we have any sort of improvement on our quality of life / living standards. It'll take a long time just to collect and analyze the information that was produced.
My only concern is that of another delay. The first date for flipping the switch, was last year in November. That date was rescheduled for mid-May of this year.
LETS DO THIS!
wait wat? i cant win the lottery 3 times in a row. damn. (crumples paper and throws in trash) there goes that plan
I've got a hard on for the Hadron tearing this time-space apart.
Hey guys, don't worry Gordon Freeman will save us if it goes to shit, that guy knows whats up.
then morgan freeman will narrate it
i lol'd.Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
yeah, I've been reading about this for a while and I can't wait for them to fire it up, pretty exciting times.Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
I found out this weekend that it has been postponed yet again, for September.Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
Hadron - Send me back to the early 50s so I can purchase thousands of packs of baseball cards and pull out all of them Mickey Mantle rookie cards.
Hadron- send me back so I can buy Microsoft stock.
What would happen if I farted in it?
you would assplode dlo
I used to be huge into the collection of sports cards, including MLB. The most expensive card for any league/collection is the T206 Honus Wagner Baseball card from 1909-1911.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pythonic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T206_Honus_Wagner
Happens next week.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...cle1630897.ece
a) This is the least of our worries
b) If it does rip a hole in spacetime and we all get vaporised it'll be good to know that we went in the most fucking awesome way possible
Being stranded on a desert island of amazon co-eds who fck your brains out til you die of exhaustion sounds better, imo
The same thing the hadron collider is replicating happens all the time so I am in no way worried.
the sun is the most garbagey working class paper known to man, but they do post nice pics of boobies so i cant complain.
Also, if i get vapourized whilst getting 5 bet by the bb with me holding aa on the btn 200bbs deep im gonna be pissed.
omg 9 days to live? i better play some world of warcraft.
LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg
didn't realize there was a post on LHC when i posted what i did. Anyway, here's something fun from that:
http://xkcd.com/401/
you win this threadQuote:
Originally Posted by givememyleg
Exactly! This is like turning your back against a forest fire and complaining about people playing with matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by ProZachNation
Anyway
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j50ZssEojtM
do these things happen all the time on earth?
Like a billion of times per second.Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
I mean on THIS earth
??
So do I. Particles from space hit our atmosphere in tremendous speeds all the time. LHC is just the same thing in observable conditions.
I don't see black holes in my back yard!
That kind of proves that these collisions are harmless doesn't it?
September 10th is the day. I hope it kills us all. :p
Just because they're invisible doesn't mean the hadron collider should just be unleashing these things on the world. Imagine a black hole at your children's school!Quote:
Originally Posted by 2_Thumbs_Up
anyone have any idea what EST it will be switched on at?
This just seems so dangerous.
42
What???Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
end of earth, start of something better
is the answer to all ifes questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/6...cgordoncl3.jpg
"They're waiting for you Gordon... In the test chamber."
oh snap
Won't somebody think of the children!Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Anyway, how is everyone going to spend their final hours?
Jerkin it ldo.Quote:
Originally Posted by pantherhound
Last 10 mins I plan to touch myself vigourously, whilst shooting up heroin and eating caviar and white truffle sandwich, in an adult diaper, on a rollercoaster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wesrman
If this kills everyone I'm gonna be pissed!
???Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
End of the world in 8 hours imo*Quote:
Starting at around 8am UK time, Dr Evans’s team will begin to fire particles around the 17-mile (27km) ring of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), the world’s most powerful atom-smasher. By about 11am, he hopes to have a beam circulating, to start a set of experiments that should reveal many of the most elusive mysteries in physics. “Then we can all go for lunch,” he says.
*or not.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4719786.ece
Thanks Badgers.
Faaaaaaahk I quit drinking last week. This would be a great reason to have a few beers or 12 i mean. :drunk:
Large Hadron Rap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j50ZssEojtM
Fixed.
TY.
The URL contained a malformed video ID.Quote:
Originally Posted by wesrman
Fixed.
Thanks. :)
after reading that article the subject is actually very interesting, i shall look into it more.
Another article just showed up.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24556999/?GT1=43001
I'm still not convinced its safe, hopefully we will know more tommorow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrhappy333
lawlQuote:
Not everyone is convinced that the black holes would disappear. "It doesn't have to be that way," said Walter Wagner, a former radiation safety officer with a law degree who is one of the plaintiffs in the federal lawsuit.
thats like asking a sports bettor about deep hu nlhe. hes not qualified. that doesnt mean hes by default wrong, but it does mean that presenting him as an authority is wrong.
the theories about what the collider will do are very sound, thats how science works. qualified scientists are not worried, yet it doesnt stop doom n gloom speculation which we all love so very much.
i would like to add something
if you ever trust anything, trust scientific consensuses. each and every one of them have undergone a more rigorous rational and empirical testing than anything. the nature of science is adding correctness and subtracting incorrectness. there is nothing else that can be said about.
so yeah end of earth not really
PSA
black holes are infinitesimally small gravity wells, which happen to be black because they suck the light from their surroundings too.
the size of the black holes is not what matters: its the gravity these things generate that matters. the black hole itself is a small bit of nothing: but its gravity can decimate (read: literally suck in) anything in relative proximity to it, thus creating void and blackness.
it does not hold matter forever: they will slowly leak a form of radiated "energy", known as Hawking Radiation.
also of interest, is that black holes are created when stars die: that's right, after a star goes nova and then boom, what remains after such a collosal energy release forms a black hole. Stars do not literally go Boom, like a firecraker. Instead, they implode. Stars, themselves, are massive (lame pun, if you understand that the Sun, our lowly average star and arguably our material creator, has the mass of 300,000 earths, or terra's. Imagine the mass of the VY canis majoris: "light" takes 8 hours to cross its surface. Light from the sun takes ~ 8 minutes to get to the earth). This relentless implosion forms a black hole.
Now that you have a general understanding as to what a black hole actually is, do you not see its neigh impossible for mankind and its current technology to create something that has the sufficient energy to simulate the energy release of a star imploding?
Cliff's notes: irrational paranoia IMO.
An old one, but useful to put things into perspective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDNEV9EW06g
and yes, I'm an astrology/astronomy buff
Steven Hawkins mentioned something about all the heavy water on earth could create a tiny blackhole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
pukeQuote:
Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
i put as many eggs in this basket as I do in the basket of superstition.
OMG TEH WORDL IS GONAN END IN LIKE 3 HORUS?????
he had to have meant to say astrophysics.Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
Bankitdrew: Not really. Allow me to explain.
Astrology, as I assume you know it, like "you will meet someone today. beware of black cats today, lots o money coming your way this Thursday" etc. is tabloid stuff, great for entertainment value of stupid people. No one can predict the future as far as I know.
What I mean with astrology is rather personality analysis: the study of analyzing people based on where and when they were born, and other factors. This will always come up with remarkably on-the-spot personality assertions.
I traditionally use the Western and the Chinese. I could incorporate the Jyotiṣa, but the way I currently do it has yielded the best results (and the Jyotiṣa is too complex for me atm). I love to study people's personality: I'm eternally curious as to what makes 'em tick. I am constantly analyzing people, always observant, trying to figure out what they really want, or what they are pretending, or if they really are genuine.
And guess what came up when I researched my own personality? ;)
You can even go a step further and analyze relationships. With a little more effort, you can gauge the "success value" of any given relationship pretty easily. Not in the "Libra, meet Capricorn" kinda easy, but still pretty easy. And tons of other things. Its scary how accurate it can be, really.
And wufwugy; astrophysics is just a branch of astronomy, so yes, that too
^^^^
Interesting venture.
Complete misunderstanding I suppose. When I read the word 'astrology,' I think of it as:
a pseudoscience claiming divination by the positions of the planets and sun and moon
WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University