fun hand w/ serious question...

no reads...new to table. but, i have a HUGE problem seeing the best move on this flop. natural tendency is to c/r and start building a pot/charging the draw, and not slowing down until a spade falls. but, is that correct? is it better to donk this flop and hope a raise comes in so we can 3bet? or do we gamble on the c/r for a very likely 2 bets?

my problem is that a c/r likely stops all action for us and only gets one bet in on each street unless the spade hits. it doesnt give us much of a chance to allow others to overplay their hands. and, flush draws will likely be playing correctly, too. yet, our hand is somewhat vulnerable to the spade draws.

which is better? lead or c/r?

0.5/1 Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($7.38)
CO ($21.45)
BTN ($20.40)
Hero ($18.25)
BB ($7.00)

Pre-flop: (1.5 SB, 5 players) Hero is SB :3d: :2d:
UTG calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, BB checks

Flop: :4s: :as: :5c: (4.0 SB, 4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, CO calls, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls, CO calls

Turn: :jh: (5.0 BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, CO calls

River: :kd: (14.0 BB, 3 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls, CO calls


oh, and thanks to the other post, i have "rule #7" in engagements...

rule #7...take your ego out of the game. ego = losing poker! be patient and let the situation come to you; dont force it because you "hate that guy."

well played hand
you defenitely need to c/r to protect
you shouldn't get greedy in trying to get extra bets when your hand is too vulnerable. Protection is most important in this scenario

I think you played this hand well, and it probably got the most money in the pot in this particular hand, but I almost always prefer to wait till the turn to c/r here with the A on board. Here you got a bit lucky in that one opponent clearly had (or made) a big second best hand and the other didn't see the train coming.

On the flop, there's hardly any hands you're vulnerable to besides a FD, and no-one is folding that no matter how many bets go in. So really your aim here is to get as much money in the pot as possible.

Once you check the flop and there's a bet and call behind you it's safe to assume at least one opponent has Ax or better and is intending to go to showdown. Most of the time one or both holds Ax, and opponents holding Ax, one pair hands, will shift into calldown mode as soon as someone c/r's the field. So better to get that c/r in on a big bet street.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrivingDog

Once you check the flop and there's a bet and call behind you it's safe to assume at least one opponent has Ax or better and is intending to go to showdown. Most of the time one or both holds Ax, and opponents holding Ax, one pair hands, will shift into calldown mode as soon as someone c/r's the field. So better to get that c/r in on a big bet street.

---

in that case isnt it better to lead and hope for a raise to RR? i dont like planning a c/r on turns with two flush cards up. i want to get as much in as soon as i can. i can always slow down when the spade drops.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chopper

in that case isnt it better to lead and hope for a raise to RR?

---

It's ok to do this if you know you're going to get action, but it sucks to lead into two opponents and have them both fold. The reason you check this flop is to see what the betting is. If it goes check-check then you haven't built the pot but you have given them a chance to catch up or try a bluff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chopper

i dont like planning a c/r on turns with two flush cards up. i want to get as much in as soon as i can. i can always slow down when the spade drops.

---

You may want to reconsider this approach. Not just on this hand but in general.

Before any bets go in on the flop, what do you think the chances are at least one of your opponents has exactly two spades? I'm estimating it's between 15-25%, depending on the opponents. Let's assume it's the higher value for the sake of argument.

So for every four times you're in this situation, only once does someone have the FD. Now which is better, being passive every time the third spade comes and saving a bet 1/4 times or being aggressive and winning one or possibly two bets 3/4 times?

Don't worry about flushes until one completes and someone raises. You gain bets in the long run that way. Once in a while you get burned but you have to play the percentages.

ok, and i'm just pissing into the wind here, on point one, do i want to risk it going check-check, having the flush card drop, and being basically screwed? obviously, thats what i did, and is why the original question popped into my mind.

point two, i understand, and contradictory to what i've been saying, i usually dont back off until i get the raise after the draw completes. but, you are saying to wait for the turn to announce real strength even on drawy flops? i know they dont complete but 30ish% of the time, but it seems like every time i do this, the other shoe drops. (selective memory, i know, but man, it sucks.)

what i am getting at is: do you do this with sets, too? if the four-card draws are up, i usually play my sets rather face up from the git-go. if the board is dry, i dont mind waiting for the turn. sounds like you are suggesting waiting for the turn more often on drawy boards?

and, i assume we are only doing this with maybe aces up at the lowest, but most likely sets and better? i just dont like giving free cards on "wet" boards. seems to burn me a lot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by asdpikas

you defenitely need to c/r to protect
you shouldn't get greedy in trying to get extra bets when your hand is too vulnerable. Protection is most important in this scenario

---

He flopped a straight. This isn't like top pair or bottom two. He flopped a fucking straight. Get lots of money into the pot and hope you hold.

I generally would just bet out because you don't know if the flop is getting bet and where it might come from. Then I would re-raise and GAS GAS GAS. If the board pairs or a spade comes, I'll re-evaluate if someone raises me.

kind of what i thought, but i instinctively went for the c/r. like i said, that's a horrid habit, but at least i am starting to catch it as it happens. now, to catch it before it happens so i can stop it.

to me, there was too much that could go wrong in trying the c/r. sure, this table was pretty much firing at checked pots, but who's to say they wouldnt check behind here. if the spade falls after all checked behind, that borders on a disaster, imo. and, its a limped pot. there's no guarantee anyone even caught a piece to fire..except me...lol.

the more i look at it, the more i feel the c/r was pretty bad. it worked, but i dont see it working often w/o serious donkeys at the table.

CO had AJo and UTG had KTo. KTo? wtf? thanks for 5.5 bb's of truly dead money.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chopper

CO had AJo and UTG had KTo. KTo? wtf? thanks for 5.5 bb's of truly dead money.

---

The pot's small and that's why I like slowplaying here. Betting out and winning 2 BB when no-one has anything isn't bad, but I think there's better ways to profit here.

One advantage to checking the flop is to encourage an idiot with KT to get involved.

If no-one bets the flop and a spade falls, you bet. Give them 2:1 to hit their lone spade, that's profit for you. Maybe you lead any turn card if its HU after the flop, but with two opponents still in at least one has Ax and a turn c/r is nice imo.