energy crisis (mod move this to the new politics forum dlo)

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06-21-2008, 11:45 PM
wufwugy

energy crisis (mod move this to the new politics forum dlo)

been researching the energy issue now for a little bit, have come to discover that it is an amazingly complicated issue, but that seems to be heavily influenced by degrees of inaccurate information and simply just hidden information. the simple 'drill more' and 'alternative fuels' just doesn't seem to appease me.

anyways we could have an entire thread on the reality of alternative energies, which isn't nearly as simple as we'd like to think, but id like this thread for the purpose behind this video, at least for starters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaDel...-prices-4.html

im not too smart so i need a lot more information to develop a conclusion, but it looks like its likely that our oil issues are heavily influenced not by deteriorating supply (which is definitely a huge issue, but possibly not the most prominent at this point in time), but by manipulation of the market by those who own the oil. if true, then alternative energy isn't a solution simply because that market can be manipulated as well. the real solution is to annihilate the manipulation

pretty eye opening vid imo. i think i like that msnbc program thingie
06-22-2008, 01:14 AM
Jack Sawyer

LOL @ drilling

fossil fuels are a finite resource, the sun too. The sun will last for another 5 billion years, while fossil fuels will last another 20.

Hydrogen is infinite throughout the galaxy, and can also be used.

But we have to drill, obviously.

When discussing whether to outfit a house with solar energy, the following line always comes up.

"So I use X kwh/day, and the price is Y/ KWH. The setup costs Z. So it should take me Z / (X * Y) to break even on this setup. Therefore, I prefer to stay on the grid, because it will be too costly"

The bolded part is incorrect, fool, you expect that energy prices will remain the same forever, and especially throughout the life your solar installation? Go fuck yourself
06-22-2008, 10:24 AM
a500lbgorilla

Ummmm... 5 billion ~ infinite.
06-22-2008, 11:22 AM
Warpe

Even the Saudis are saying that a big part of the run-up in oil prices is due to speculators.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...B5DF6B03632%7D

Also, Google "Enron Loophole" for interesting reading.
06-22-2008, 11:32 AM
Warpe

btw, $4/gal is peanuts:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/01/news...rice/index.htm
06-22-2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

btw, $4/gal is peanuts:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/01/news...rice/index.htm

THANK YOU.
06-22-2008, 12:11 PM
Jack Sawyer

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Ummmm... 5 billion ~ infinite.

my sarcasm was too thickly veiled? ;)
06-22-2008, 12:19 PM
euphoricism

A lot of people who were heavily invested in real estate have moved to energy. This bubble will burst too. Just a matter of when.
06-22-2008, 12:25 PM
d0zer

Re: energy crisis (mod move this to the new politics forum d

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

it is an amazingly complicated issue ... heavily influenced by degrees of inaccurate information and simply just hidden information.

...

the real solution is to annihilate the manipulation

monies makes the world go 'round :whistle: :hmm: :wall: :puke: :cut:
06-22-2008, 01:43 PM
will641

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

btw, $4/gal is peanuts:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/01/news...rice/index.htm

THANK YOU.

its not our fault european countries tax the ever living shit out of gas and oil.
06-22-2008, 02:00 PM
Warpe

Quote:

Originally Posted by will641

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

btw, $4/gal is peanuts:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/01/news...rice/index.htm

THANK YOU.

its not our fault european countries tax the ever living shit out of gas and oil.

No, but it's one of the reasons North Americans consume more than twice as much oil per capita than EU countries.
06-22-2008, 02:19 PM
will641

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

Quote:

Originally Posted by will641

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwarfman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warpe

btw, $4/gal is peanuts:

http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/01/news...rice/index.htm

THANK YOU.

its not our fault european countries tax the ever living shit out of gas and oil.

No, but it's one of the reasons North Americans consume more than twice as much oil per capita than EU countries.

its not our fault our country is enormous.
06-22-2008, 03:41 PM
d0zer

Quote:

Originally Posted by will641

its not our fault our country is enormous.

short-sighted urban planning has a lot to do with it...
06-22-2008, 03:44 PM
Deanglow

Nuclear power is the short term answer and it isn't close.
06-22-2008, 05:58 PM
euphoricism

Yup. But the damned hippies seem to think Chernobyl is just around the fucking corner.
06-22-2008, 06:46 PM
XTR1000

It´s hilarious how our governement decided to take our nuclear power plants off the net within the next 12 years. Italy did the same in the 80s I guess and brags nowadays about having non-nuclear power, while a huge part of their total energy import comes from nuclear power plants france only built to export power to Italy.

What most people dont realize/dont know/fail to understand and what makes nuclear power hard to substitute is the structure of costs of production. A nuclear power plant is known to have huge fix costs but close to zero marginal costs per KWh, why npp´s are supposed to provide base load power and coal/oil/gas fueled plants get on the net in peak times.

The reserves of fossil fuels is actually a linear function of related prices on global markets. Note how not even 15 yrs ago almost noone considered conveying oil sands in canada and in 2003 the worlds oil reserves suddenly increased for 175 billion barrel when former ressources in canada became to be considered reserves. Note how venezuelian reserves increased in 2003, when escalating prices justified producing heavy oil, that needs to be heated in order to maintain a viscosity low enough, so it can be pumped thru pipelines.

Renewables. It´s not the funny clean and cool thing that will save our planet and makes everybody happy. It´s expensive, wind and sun can´t provide a constant base load. The sun doesnt shine during winters when we´d need it. Plants of which renewable fuels are made of compete with rice and corn for acreage and we already reached the point where prices for staple food like rice or corn are correlated to energy prices. Ascending oil prices let the prices for food rise, wtf?! Starving children in the 3rd world cant afford a bag of rice because we are willing to spend a fuckton of money to drive around in $60k SUV´s.

Theory: In order to let renewables like wind, sun and water become a full substitue for fossil fueled and nuclear plants, we need to develop a cheap way to store a huge amount of electricty over at least 300 days.

My 2 cents, numbers and dates are probably incorrect. Good topic for a discussion imo.
06-22-2008, 08:02 PM
2_Thumbs_Up

What people forget when they talk about speculators driving up the prices is that the speculators who are doing this need to get the money from somewhere as well. It's easy credit that allowed the housing bubble to inflate and it's easy credit that's allowing the energy prices to rise.
11-09-2008, 04:42 PM
Jack Sawyer

we are halfway there

http://www.greentechgazette.com/inde...cent-of-light/

now we need something to store it in that has proper capacity and lifespan
11-10-2008, 03:14 PM
wufwugy

new information has shown me that its possible that we are already doomed or real close, except it wont be in our lifetimes. this is because rapid climate shift on the earth scale is v slow on the human scale. and it is often sparked by a few small events that cause a runaway effect that creates drastic climate turbulence over centuries/millenia

its possible that we've already triggered a runaway effect, it will just take many generations to become fully developed
11-10-2008, 03:50 PM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

new information has shown me that its possible that we are already doomed or real close, except it wont be in our lifetimes. this is because rapid climate shift on the earth scale is v slow on the human scale. and it is often sparked by a few small events that cause a runaway effect that creates drastic climate turbulence over centuries/millenia

its possible that we've already triggered a runaway effect, it will just take many generations to become fully developed

No need to worry... is just a natural part of these end of days...
11-10-2008, 03:59 PM
wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

new information has shown me that its possible that we are already doomed or real close, except it wont be in our lifetimes. this is because rapid climate shift on the earth scale is v slow on the human scale. and it is often sparked by a few small events that cause a runaway effect that creates drastic climate turbulence over centuries/millenia

its possible that we've already triggered a runaway effect, it will just take many generations to become fully developed

No need to worry... is just a natural part of these end of days...

well it also wont be an end of days scenario. climate turbulence will likely not be drastic enough that the richest nations wont be able to survive. it'll be all the third world and coldish regions that die out. the only realistic natural event that would wipe humans out completely would be an asteroid like the ones that have caused several mass extinctions over the course of a few billion years

on a related note, id really like to know more about the hypothetical and destructive planet x
11-10-2008, 04:09 PM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

new information has shown me that its possible that we are already doomed or real close, except it wont be in our lifetimes. this is because rapid climate shift on the earth scale is v slow on the human scale. and it is often sparked by a few small events that cause a runaway effect that creates drastic climate turbulence over centuries/millenia

its possible that we've already triggered a runaway effect, it will just take many generations to become fully developed

No need to worry... is just a natural part of these end of days...

well it also wont be an end of days scenario. climate turbulence will likely not be drastic enough that the richest nations wont be able to survive. it'll be all the third world and coldish regions that die out. the only realistic natural event that would wipe humans out completely would be an asteroid like the ones that have caused several mass extinctions over the course of a few billion years

on a related note, id really like to know more about the hypothetical and destructive planet x

sorry wug... apparently my sarcasm-tinged second coming reference didn't make it thru...

Short answer - we don't have a f-kin clue how the planet's going to react. All we know for sure is 1) mother nature ain't nothing but biology, chemistry and physics, so it's gonna do whatever it's gonna do, 2) we are having a major impact and 3) not mitigating that impact is like playing russian roulette with a 150lb crossbow... sometimes your arms to short reach the trigger, but when you do something's happening.... :shock:

oh... and 4) sh!t is definitely happening.....

EDIT: On review, I don't understand my own crossbow analogy. Would be great if someone could 'splain it to me.
11-10-2008, 05:42 PM
Jack Sawyer

Quote:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

the only realistic natural event that would wipe humans out completely would be an asteroid like the ones that have caused several mass extinctions over the course of a few billion years

yes, thankfully, asteroids have slowed down too. the nature of the solar system has grown more mature, and there are much less stray parts that are big enough that can wipe us out.

plus, the absolute biggest ones (catastrophic disaster) that may emanate from the Kuiper belt, the Oort cloud, or beyond, must first pass through the immense gravitational pull of our big and protective galactic brother Jupiter, and then the space Troy Polamalu called Saturn

Conclusion: we are pretty safe from most natural disasters. We are not safe though from sick human minds, and stupid people sitting within reach of big red buttons.
11-10-2008, 05:50 PM
wufwugy

sure

i got your sarcasm btw, i just like dispensing with the opinions/informations when relevant