Help with Pocket Kings after the Flop

Sorry I couldn't convert the hand, so I typed it out. If I'm missing anything let me know.

.02NL (Full Ring)

Villan - $5.82 (utg)
UTG +1 - $.84
Hero - $2.87
CO - $1
Button - $5.36
SB - $5
BB -$2.27

Dealt to Hero [Kd Kc]

BB - .02
SB - .01
Co - .02 (new to the table)

Villan limps - .02
UTG + 1 calls - .02
Hero raise - .08 **pretty sure I should have raised more than x3
CO - Calls .06
Button - Calls .08
SB - Folds
BB - Calls .06
Villan - Calls .06
UTG + 1 - Folds

Total in pot $0.49

Flop [8s,9c,Jd]
BB -Check
Villan - Raise $.49
Hero - Re-Raise $1.02 *I think I could have pushed here, I was pretty sure that Villian didn't have a set, might have been on a draw or hit some part of the flop, either way I was probably ahead.
Everyone else folds,
Villan Calls
$2.53 in the Pot.

Villan Checks
Hero Pushes. * Here is where I'm sure I made my mistake #2. Looking back If I thought that Villan had any part of the flop, chances are he would have bet the pot with top pair. I thought I was still ahead and figured because he checked he was still on the draw so I bet.

Villan Calls.

Any advice on how I could have played this better?

Raise significantly more PF. Raise more on the flop.

Not sure what the turn card was, but putting the rest in now is probably fine.

Raise WAY more preflop at those stakes. To drive out people not playing with premium hands probably 10-15xBB is better, depending on whether the table is really loose or tight.

What was the turn card? And did you have any read on him?

Way too easy for him to have 89, J9, but he could also have 10J, QJ, KJ could be there as well. I'm assuming he flopped two pair.

i think he has connected with the flop. Thats why we kick ourselves when we have pocket K's and dont raise enough to scare ppl away.

I'm still a beginner, but I think this advice applies.

An acknowledged standard for pre-flop raise sizes is this: 3-4bb + 1bb per limper. In the case of CO posting because he's fresh to the table he counts as a limper. In this hand this would suggest a standard raise size of 7-8bb. If you consider the action alone, this is what you should come up with.

Now, you could also consider the stack sizes. UTG+1 has 42bb. If UTG+1 were to call an 8bb raise from you he would have 34bb behind and there would be 19.5bb in the pot. Because KK is a hand that has a lot of equity pre-flop and on many flops it would be interesting to get 42bbs in the pot against UTG either pre-flop or on the flop if you had reason to think you would be playing against him. If you thought you'd be up against UTG+1 I could see an argument for raising to 13bb instead so he has 29bb behind and the pot is 29.5bb on the flop at which point you can open shove to commit him.

UTG on the other hand has you covered, so effective stack sizes against him are 143.5bb. This means you cannot play to get the money in pre-flop or on the flop while your KK is in good shape. If you end up being called by UTG you need to be prepared to play poker on all four streets.

Not knowing whether you'll end up playing against UTG or UTG+1 and with people left to act in the hand I would go for the standard raise size without trying to adjust it further to conditions. $0.15 seems reasonable.

On the flop: You really need to work out what it means to relate a bet and/or a raise to the size of the pot. Let me help a bit.

The central concept here is pot odds. In plain terms it is the odds offered by the pot on your bets. A big pot and small bet gives you great pot odds, a small pot and big bets give you bad pot odds. To really understand the concept you have to mentally shift back and forth between bettor and caller several times.

If the pot contains $1 and someone bets $1 into it, I need to call $1 to have a chance to win the $2 we say that I get 2-1 odds to call.
From the bettors perspective I bet $1 into a $1 pot laying 2-1 odds to the caller. A pot sized bet (PSB) lays/gets 2-1 odds. A half pot sized bet lays/gets 3-1 odds.

When you are making a raise you want it to be an effective bet. This means that you want to lay odds to the caller which are in the same sort of realm as if you were doing a half pot sized bet or pot sized bet or whatever you think is appropriate for the situation. This means that the raise in general needs to be much larger than one would intuitively suspect.

A $1 pot sees a $1 bet and the action is on you. This is a PSB, and you want to make a raise that is also a PSB. You calculate how much to raise in this way:
1) Complete the 'call' bit and calculate what the interim pot size is then. You 'call' $1 making the interim pot $3.
2) Make a PSB. Interim pot is $3 so you bet $3 into it to lay 2-1 odds on the caller.
3) Add up the 'call' and the 'PSB' to get the size that you should raise to. You add $1 'call' to $3 'PSB' in your head - the actual action in the hand is: Pot is $1. Villain bets $1. Hero raises to $4.

The pot is $0.49 and he bets $0.49. To make a 'PSB' size raise you would need to raise to $1.96. if you raise to anything less you are offering him better odds to call than he was offering you in the first place (not that that is necessarily a bad thing) - but raising to $1.02 is definitely too small. A raise to $2.79 (your stack) is a bit of an overbet, but not unreasonable.

What does it mean when he does a PSB on this board?

It's rainbow so flush is unlikely to be a factor. To finish this thought, if he was playing 7s6s he would have 8 outs to finish his straight and although he would need running spades to finish a flush that is similar to approximately 2 outs. In that way a flush is a possible factor in the villain's considerations, but it is unlikely to factor in.

A big bet can mean many things. It can mean strength or weakness both. Sometimes people take a hand that is vulnerable but which has potential and bet big on it, considering a fold a good result. Sometimes a big bet means simply a big hand - other times big hands bet small to keep people calling so they can drag more money out of you. Robb's recent post on beginners first 20k hands or something does a good job (in lesson 2) of describing some beginner level considerations when it comes to flop bet sizing.

When deciding what to do on the flop we have to consider what he's holding - and we make educated guesses (referred to as hand reading) by considering his past actions.

He limped UTG - then called a small raise (good odds) when the pot was already 4 way - 5 way with him and potentially going up to 6 way.

On the flop, second to act with 3 people behind him he makes a PSB.

When making educated guesses you should always start by asking which hands an intelligent and skilled player would have played in this way - and then worry about adjusting to known weaknesses or stupidity if it applies afterwards. And you should always consider unknowns intelligent and skilled until proven otherwise - it tends to save you money.

Which hands would he limp UTG with? On the surface he wants to see a cheap flop. He could have a low to medium pair, or suited connectors hoping to flop big. If this table doesn't normally have a lot of re-raising pre-flop it might be reasonable for him to expect to get in cheaply with that type of hand.

When it comes around to him with 4 people already in, him making it 5way to the flop - which hands would he call with? The exact same type of hand that he would limp with UTG I'd think - a small/medium pair hoping to set or a suited connector that plays very well in a multiway pot.

What does it mean when he fires a PSB second to act with 3 people to act behind him (one of them being the pre-flop aggressor)? It could mean: "I have a big hand - call me and pay me" or it could mean: "Go away". I would be tempted to suspect that he doesn't have a made straight or set but rather something along the lines of TT or T9 for a made pair with good draw potential.

If he has something like Ts9s he would have effectively 14-15 outs to beat your KK. (four sevens, four queens, two nines, three tens and one to two outs for runner runner spades - less than 2 in this case because some of the spades complete some of the other hands that beat you).

If he has something like Ts9s and you go all-in on the flop as played it is entirely possible that he will think he is behind and will fold - even though it would actually be correct for him to call. People at these stakes sometimes don't properly understand the strength of their hand. I mention this to underline that it's not wrong to play a KK hand aggressively in this spot and have someone fold - you may just have had someone fold the better hand.

That said - 88, 99 and 89s and J9s are certainly also in his range.

On the flop I would tend to agree with your assertion that he's probably on a draw or a single pair with a draw and just go all-in with the kings here.

About the turn: There's $2.53 in the pot and you have $1.77 behind. If you have any reason to think you're ahead (such as if he checks) you're all-in. The pot is offering such attractive odds at this time that I'm not sure you can get away from it regardless.

Regardless of what villain has, the problem was the small PF raise. If you're on a loose table at these stakes, it's going to be a crap-shoot no matter how you look at it. Of course you don't want to take down just the blinds either so you must find a happy medium for raising on each and every table you play. At an ultra-tight table, 3-4x BB will work. At a loose table, you should be raising anywhere from 5-8x BB, depending on position, especially with your big hands. You still might get some jerk-off calling with 89 or J9 but that's where you'll need to develop post-flop skills and putting the villain on a range.

Erpel, great analysis.

I have a general question for everyone, maybe I should post it somewhere else.

I understand your logic and your analysis, especially the detail on pot odds... how some bet correctly and some don't... the bigger question is... HOW THE HELL DO YOU FIGURE ALL OF THAT OUT IN 15 SECONDS?

Yeah I knew after I looked at the hand that I didn't bet enough pre-flop. Turn Card was a Jack. Which again made me think he was on a draw and why I put the rest of my chips in the pot on the turn.

Thank you Erpel for the comments. You were totally right about the re-raise amount. You also mentioned Robb's first 20k post. I've been following that post and I'm still playing my first 1k hands. Getting close to moving onto step 2.

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Originally Posted by Monty3038

Erpel, great analysis.

I have a general question for everyone, maybe I should post it somewhere else.

I understand your logic and your analysis, especially the detail on pot odds... how some bet correctly and some don't... the bigger question is... HOW THE HELL DO YOU FIGURE ALL OF THAT OUT IN 15 SECONDS?

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experience and practice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monty3038

Erpel, great analysis.

I have a general question for everyone, maybe I should post it somewhere else.

I understand your logic and your analysis, especially the detail on pot odds... how some bet correctly and some don't... the bigger question is... HOW THE HELL DO YOU FIGURE ALL OF THAT OUT IN 15 SECONDS?

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Practice definitely but you need to have the questions down in your head first:

What is opponents range?
What do I think he has - draw/pair/etc.
How much is in the pot?
How much do I need to bet to further show me what he has vs. what I have.

Start with this and then work on one little bit more at a time ie. stack sizes, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ponyboy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monty3038

Erpel, great analysis.

I have a general question for everyone, maybe I should post it somewhere else.

I understand your logic and your analysis, especially the detail on pot odds... how some bet correctly and some don't... the bigger question is... HOW THE HELL DO YOU FIGURE ALL OF THAT OUT IN 15 SECONDS?

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Practice definitely but you need to have the questions down in your head first:

What is opponents range?
What do I think he has - draw/pair/etc.
How much is in the pot?
How much do I need to bet to further show me what he has vs. what I have.

Start with this and then work on one little bit more at a time ie. stack sizes, etc.

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yes, Practice will be key, but putting opponent on range can take the whole time so far... guess I'm more level 1 thinking than I thought. Heck, sometimes it takes me 5 seconds to figure my outs.

I have the same problem monty. I usually have a book that I write in while playing to figure out that kind of stuff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monty3038

Erpel, great analysis.

I have a general question for everyone, maybe I should post it somewhere else.

I understand your logic and your analysis, especially the detail on pot odds... how some bet correctly and some don't... the bigger question is... HOW THE HELL DO YOU FIGURE ALL OF THAT OUT IN 15 SECONDS?

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Thanks for the kind comment and to answer the question: You don't. Not all of it - and not in 15 seconds. What you do is perform this type of analysis (or better, what I did here is still not complete and also flawed) in slow time - on the forum, asking advice, using your own hands or other peoples hands. When you are doing this you are developing your 'feel', and as you do more of it you will begin to remember these principles in a short-hand form that you can apply at the table when you have very limited time to think and act.

Incidentally, if you do want some thinking time I recommend playing only at slow tables if that is an option. PokerStars for instance has 'fast' tables and tables that are not fast - you get about 30 seconds to act if you steer clear of the fast table.

A related topic is session review - if you have 4 hours to play you should probably spend 2 hours playing and 2 hours reviewing your session, analyzing your hands and trying to determine if you made the right decisions - and definitely come to the forum if you do not know how to analyze a specific situation in a way that is helpful to you, or if you just can't come up with an answer you are comfortable with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erpel

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monty3038

Erpel, great analysis.

I have a general question for everyone, maybe I should post it somewhere else.

I understand your logic and your analysis, especially the detail on pot odds... how some bet correctly and some don't... the bigger question is... HOW THE HELL DO YOU FIGURE ALL OF THAT OUT IN 15 SECONDS?

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Thanks for the kind comment and to answer the question: You don't. Not all of it - and not in 15 seconds. What you do is perform this type of analysis (or better, what I did here is still not complete and also flawed) in slow time - on the forum, asking advice, using your own hands or other peoples hands. When you are doing this you are developing your 'feel', and as you do more of it you will begin to remember these principles in a short-hand form that you can apply at the table when you have very limited time to think and act.

Incidentally, if you do want some thinking time I recommend playing only at slow tables if that is an option. PokerStars for instance has 'fast' tables and tables that are not fast - you get about 30 seconds to act if you steer clear of the fast table.

A related topic is session review - if you have 4 hours to play you should probably spend 2 hours playing and 2 hours reviewing your session, analyzing your hands and trying to determine if you made the right decisions - and definitely come to the forum if you do not know how to analyze a specific situation in a way that is helpful to you, or if you just can't come up with an answer you are comfortable with.

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Been doing that for some time now, but just getting going in the cash area (see my operation for more details). Thanks for the advice, I just am trying to understand the 'feel' I guess... even with study it doesn't seem to come easy to me.

Ok, developing feel.

I can use my example of the 'PSB' raise from above. If you read through my explanation you see why in the example it is correct to raise to $4 when the pot is $1 and the bet before you is $1. You understand that bet sizing along those lines comes from wanting to put the villain to the same type of decision (a pot sized bet) as the one he was confronting you with - instead of one that offers him favourable odds. In reading through it I hope you jump from bettor to caller more times than I described and imagine how it would look with one number or another going up or down - and how that would change the balance and the meaning of the bet in terms of pot odds and so on. You might do the corresponding example with an initial half PSB and doing a half PSB raise and an initial half PSB and doing a full PSB raise. $1 pot, $0.5 bet, raise to $1.5 (1/2 PSB) or raise to $2.5 (PSB raise) and based on all the numbers get a basic understanding that for a raise to be a properly sized bet the same way a 1/2 PSB to PSB is you would normally end up betting somewhere between 3 and 4 times the original raise.

That's your shorthand - that's what you can apply as 'feel' at the table. If you raise to something between 3 and 4 times what the initial bet was you're probably in the right ballpark. You can now forget all the detail about how to figure it out, use the 3-4 times guideline and focus on other parts of your game for a while.

Later on you'll come back to bet sizing and re-analyze the area and plug some leaks and so on, but for now the rough guide to raise 3-4 times the initial bet (assuming it's not too small) is sufficient - if you want to raise. And if someone bets $0.1 into a $1 pot you already know enough that even though you would normally follow the 3-4 times rule you know exactly why, intuitively - using 'feel', this is a case where you wouldn't do the 3-4 times thing but rather semi-ignore the initial bet when you make your own bet.

In the same way you go laboriously through calculations and examples hoping to build an understanding of principles. Sometimes (most times) you go through a careful analysis and think you come up with the right answer without really feeling that you've understood a new principle. But it's gradual - it's growing - and most things that do translate into a shorthand form or understanding a basic principle isn't something that you voice so clearly. Often it is when you read a post from someone much better that you spot that you actually understand what he's talking about and the lesson you've been learning crystalizes into something short and to-the-point that you can express and understand.

This is when your reply to threads such as this becomes: "Make a proper raise" or "raise more" without even thinking that the beginner might not understand why he should be betting $1.96 (ignoring his actual stack for now) instead of $1.02. You just 'know' without thinking that $1.02 is wrong - there's your 'feel'.

It's just basic learning really. One thing that is very useful for a learning poker player (or learning anything else) is knowing things about yourself - knowing which things you learn from and which types of learning for you goes in one ear and out the other - and then structure your studies in a way that you effectively learn. Just because we all say that study is good doesn't mean that the way I study or someone else studies will work best for you.