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$200 effective
TAggfish 4-8+ tabler opens for $8 on the button.
We re-raise to $28 (cuz pocket pairs can't play set, yuck, yuck, yuck) from the BB with a reasonable TAggfishy image.
Button calls.
What's the button's range?
Assume PokerStars or Fult Tilt and not lolnousplayers.com or fishysportsbook.com.
Best answer gets $50 on Poker Stars.
edit: I'll throw in another $50 for the best post with hard data. You might even scoop!
77-99, any SC 78+ and KJs. I would think they are 4 betting any TT+, AK+ hand, and are only hoping for a hand worth shoving on the flop. I still think most Taggfish like to think AK is a larger part of your range when getting 3bet enough that he's willing to see a flop with more hands than he should. They still look for reasons to call instead of reasons to fold.
88-QQ
KK-AA.
Quote:
88-QQ
Are you guys in the habit of calling 3bets with these ranges?Quote:
KK-AA.
99-jj, aj, kq, aq...vills calling range is definitely not as defined as simply big/midpairs yet its not also as wide as the range jyms points out i dont think. A tagfish who multi tables will not be looking to play a 3 bet pot with another tag with suited connectors nor small pocket pairs or hands as easily dominated as kj...However as hes a tagFISH you may have to include kq,aj in his range as well. ak, qq will show up very rarely as hed nearly always 4 bet them in pos, with this similiarly applying to kk,aa though its possible he may show up wid those last 2 hands in the hope of trapping.
AK or TT
It will be easy to figure out which one after the flop action.
6max vs fullring?
Full ring I think 22-JJ for set value, then 45s-JTs, 67o-JT.
That's because we TAGGfish put a standard fellow TAGGfish 3bet range as QQ+, AK correctly or not and play too many hands for drawing value instead of showdown value.
A) This isn't about me.Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
B) Yes I do call 3 bets in hu pots with AA and KK. I also four bet them. Is this not on your preflop hand chart?
I know it's not about you, but do you really want to give a taggfish calling a 3bet AA-KK as a range?
I think most people are having a problem with the Taggfish read. most 4-8 tabling Taggfish I have on my database are calling 50%+ of 3 bets and calling way wider than you guys seem to think. They all know how to fold small PP's without set odds and against myself (3 betting 6%-8% of hands) they tend to think my stack off range is lighter than it is.
88-JJ, JTs+, AKo.
Look jyms, this is like the price is right. If you say that the can opener costs 15.79 I'm gonna have to come up with another price.
You got A LOT of 'spaining to do if you put this in your range not heavily discounted.Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
*nods head*Quote:
Originally Posted by pankfish
Is this perception or do you have hard data?Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
I open for 3x, fold to a 3-bet ~75% of the time and am very much OK with that once I figured out that math and that they SHOULD figure to make money here since my opponent usually will have a better hand (with some real monsters in his range.) FWIW, if you try to insta-profit me at some point you'll probably get your ass 4-bet and have to guess if I'm full of shit or not and what sorts of hands I'm going to felt.
88+,AQs+,JTsc+,AKo (maybe AQo and AJs).
I find that AK makes up 40%+ of villains range. TT takes up 40%+ and the remaining <10% goes towards junk like J9s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Sorry, I'm lost for words towards trying to explain this soul reading ability that I have. Besides, to win a contest like this - I figured I'd try to have as narrow of a range as possible.
Most reasonable answer so far, although I disagree with parts of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ATOTHEC101
AK I'm all in LoLz ROFLCOPTER GOES WHOOSH WHOOSH WHOOSH!Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
6 max.Quote:
Originally Posted by cardsman1992
AA/KK are the most likely, then i'd probably say AQ and TT, JJ/QQ next. Then AJ/99/88/KQ. Then pp's. Then i guess KJ/sc's. In order of probability.
Edit: Just realized I forgot AK. Although, some people just auto 4 bet it so it's probably right at pp's.
Im assuming this is someone you have no history with and have not 3bet a noticable amount in the past hour.
Id say the most probable is big cards (ie. KQ, AQ, sometimes even an AJs)
Then some 88-JJ.... because those hands are probably at the top of his opening range, and he's in position and can win his share of pots without a set.
Definately some AA, KK.... cuz its a TARP!... and he reads 2p2.
I think AK and QQ are 4-bets here about 93.786% of the time... now thats hard evidence and data.
Oh, you could also see an 78, 89s type hand occasionaly, but I think he folds the suited one gappers imo.
I know this is a relatively wide range but with all the 3betting going on latley, Ive noticed that people are flatting in pos. with many more hands than Ive seen in the past.
Ship?
The implied odds aren't good enough for for SCs or small pairs. AK will push most of the time, TT-QQ will raise/fold most of the time.
AK(30%),QQ(30%),AA,KK
Am I making a mistake by putting V on such a tight range? Multi-tabling tagg opens pretty light from the button, but without history I have to assume defense weeds pretty much all the garbage out of his range. Personally, in V's spot I'm letting you take it with most of my range, and almost never calling. Wait a sec, this is a leak.
From the button's perspective, we're playing a hand in position, probably for stacks, against a "taggfish" (whatever the fuck that is). If you open for pot we can push over with a pretty good range. Unless we're giving you lots of credit, that should happen a lot of the time.
If we push over with AK, TT-QQ (and maybe some balancing stuff) we can flat with 56s+, AQs, AA, KK.
Then again, I doubt I play or think like your V does.
QQ shoving vs call % for your typical forum monkey? I'm pretty damn sure AK is shoving like 90% unless he's a see a flop kind of guy. Unsure about QQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by gametight
You don't post stack sizes so I have to assume that you're both fullstacked with no other info.
Even a Taggfish understands that you can reasonably open any SC's 45+ 1 gappers 5s7s+ Any Suited Ace, and any 2 wheelhouse cards and PP's from the button. Possibly even Q9s also.
Assuming he plays solid taggfish poker. He's going to fold to the Re-Raise all of his SC's that won't have top pair showdown value. So 97s,+ 98s+, and Q9+, because 45s doesn't get proper odds any more.
Low Pocket Pairs also get mucked until the 99/TT range. Let's assume he's a good tag, so TT+.
The final level of thought here is: What does he call here and not 4bet.
If he were a tricky player and not just a straightforward Taggfish I would suggest that he may smoothcall with AA/KK with intent to induce. No such luck here. But I think that QQ, JJ, and TT may all call due to set/odds and showdown value.
AKs and AKo are both 4bets here... so we can discount them
But AQs and AQo and AJs and ATs get called by Taggfish all the time
This leaves us with a range of
PP's: QQ, JJ, TT
Wheelhouse: AQo, ATs+ But not AKo or AKs
SC's Q7s+, 97+ and 98+ (I really want to throw in (A2s-A5s) but that feels a little too loose.)
Read the first line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
Interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
lol must be way off huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
I can look for the data but I would hazzard a guess that it's more perception. As for the Taggfish read I was referring to the players you call taggfish not Fnord and his Taggfish image.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Buttons range cannot be so strictly defined without our own image calculated in. However, in a vacuum and I can see buttons range to be
Pocket pairs 66, 77, 88, 99, TT, JJ and sometimes AA. I assume that Tagg's would automatically 4-bet AK, QQ, KK.
AQ & AJs
9Ts, JTs, JQs
+ some random hands depending on flow of game.
i'm going to win this contest
just saw edit... please dont let the post with best hard data scoop da moneys as that will be me solidly out of the running, thanking you kindly.
I know roughly what I think, but I have a very open mind. Some of you play these games and hopefully think about these things from time to time. What do you think and what have you seen?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
I do mess around with these exercises, but as I'm just now gaining the mind to think on this level, I haven't spent much time at it.
Honestly as a taggfish player, @200nl I'm looking to get into situations where we can play for stacks in 3-bet pots, thats why I'm thinking that suited ace wheelhouse cards are in the mix. In fact my entire thought process was put through that litmus. If I hit can I get his stack. If I pick up a disgusting draw, can we play for stacks.
Since most of your suggested ranges have been pretty broad, ill give my narrow range.
PP's 77-jj. :wink:
I'm basing my range for button off of us having a small PP from that line in the OP. Villain calls with PP's 66-1010 and probably about 75% of the time he has AA he smooth calls. He probably 4 bets JJ-KK and AK looking to get it in. AQo and A10s+ are probably auto calls for him, maybe calling with AJo half the time. villain calls with some sc's 76s+ some of the time, but i don't think he calls with them all the time without any notable history. he probably calls with the higher sc's more often than the lower ones, so maybe 76s like 30% of the time he has it with like a sliding scale increasing to 70% for KQs.
end result in decreasing likelihood: AQo/66-1010/A10s+/AA/KQs/QJs/.../76s
OK i see this hasnt been won so meh ill try attempt.
btw whats heros hand?? this would help us put weight on certain holdings? Its a game of information so shudnt we have that?
Anywho...........
Ok so we should assume opp will;
With super premuims - 4bet/shove or 4bet/call with QQ-KK,AK while he probably calls with AA about 80% of the time. Also to add he may call with KK about 20%. Im not cancelling out QQ and AK from calling but i could estimate about 15% time they call.
Since you raised $28 then i imagine they WILL still call with some PPs, prob drop 22-77. They cry call 88-99. Call ALL TT-JJ.
For unpaired decent hands then, call with AJ-AQs, fold 50% of AJ-AQo. Small % that AQs will 4bet.
THey may call with some odd SC stuff but if they call thats a very minimal %.
Thats my guess.
I play 5NL and I know I still suck at estimating ranges, but what the hell.
I'm guessing a multi-tabling TAggfish plays something like 19/16 or tighter at 6-max. However, given he's opening on the button here his range is likely to be wider than that because he's in position (and he might even be stealing). So wide range at this point.
However, any attempted steals with poor or marginal hands will fold to the 3-bet. Suited one-gappers below KJ and worse probably won't like the action, and while I could imagine a LAggy player sticking around with suited connectors, especially in position, I'm not so sure about a multi-tabling TAgg. Maybe just JTs+. Small pocket pairs are only getting about 7 to 1 implied odds even if he thinks you'll get your stack in, which is not profitable, and he'll probably know that and fold them. Big hands like QQ-AA, AK are likely to 4-bet - AA/KK in particular might call to trap but would have to be at least discounted here.
That leaves 88-JJ, AQ, AJ, KQ, QJs, JTs, a discounted AA/KK, and a heavily discounted AK/QQ.
I think what people are neglecting here is villain is in position in a heads up 3bet pot. I agree with some of the other sentiments here that your image is really important (as well as possible history with villain) $28 leaves $172 behind, so getting about 8.5:1 implied, so if he's a relatively competent player 77-TT, 45s-JTs and AQ+, AQs (I'm guessing a thinking player would realize that QJs+ is absolutely killed by your OOP 3bet range) and AA a small percentage of the time (5-10%, maybe). I think he has to 4bet JJ and QQ to see where he's at (do TAGs 4bet/fold QQ @ $200NL?) KK he would almost certainly 4bet/call for value. I think smaller suited connectors go way up in value, QJs, KQs, because they're either absolutely crushed, or flipping against your range are pretty garbage. I would also include suited one gappers 57s-T8s because they make disguised straights, and thus have increased implied odds.
So I guess my answer would be: 57s-T8s, 56s-JTs, 77-TT, AJs, AQs,AQ+ and severely discounted JJ,QQ,AA (Maybe 1 combination each for 16.5%?). Basically hands that either have substantial value against MPPs and the random suited gappers that you're 3betting for balance or are disguised enough to give your range bad reverse implied odds.
BTW, this would be really easy for any 200NL regular, all you have to do is filter for 19/16 TAGs, on the button, and ((1 - Fold to 3bet) * PFR) - (4bet * PFR). This is the relative perecentage of their range that they're calling your 3bet with. This would be a bit skewed, as the DB queries for PFR in PT might not be smart enough to exclude times when the villain 3bets on the button.
Based on loose estimations I'm guessing that his calling range consists of about 15-20 hands that play well in 3bet pots, and have good implied odds, while giving you bad reverse implied odds.
Edit:
If you've been 3bet punishing him a ton, I could see him calling with as much as the top 75-90% of his range (lest the obvious premiums) for about the overall top 25% of hands.
PP's 44/55-TT/JJ, suited broadways, KQo, A9s-AJs, ATo-AQo, JJ-AA (with JJ and QQ being less likely), and occasional SC's in the 78-9T range.
opp thinks he is good enough to play the smaller PP's without a set enough to turn a profit since he is in position. same with the more suspect hands in his range.
opp has also probably made 1 or 2 aggressive position plays in the last 3 orbits that are making him think you are trying to keep him in line, thus opening his range.
unfortunately I don't have hard data for 6max games, or any experience playing them for at least 8 months, so I am probably way off.
Now, I have no experience at 200nl and am only really beginning to learn to think about 3betting ranges, so I couldn't possibly come up with a reasonable, normal and balanced 3betting range and 3bet calling range as is discussed by some of the other posters in this thread.
For this reason, I will for the purpose of my reply read entirely too much into the 'read' section of the initial post. I will begin my reply by asking: What is a TAggfish? Fish is part of the name, so presumably it is someone who Fnord characterises as someone who is possible (if not outright easy) to exploit - and for this to be relatively evident. Here I presume we are considering the tendency of TAgg players to think in terms of raise or fold. As in, you can let them take themselves to value-town when behind and sometimes bluff them off better hands. The multi-tabler comment supports the impression of someone who doesn't necessarily want to get into many complicated spots. This to me makes call a very unlikely play for button TAggfish.
I would still think button TAggfish is positionally aware - and aware of BB being positionally aware and prepared to play a 3bet pot out of position. I like button Taggfish being so inclined to raising strong and folding weak hands that I think he'd only really call with AA, KK - expecting BB Taggfish to have played TT+, AK, AQs and be mostly dominated. I'm not sure there is a middle ground (PPs around 99 and good suited connectors as mentioned by others) that button TAggfish would call here. As button TAggfish I would worry (probably too much) about BB TAggfish leading out on flops, so even if they hit me I'd still be inclined to fold medium single pairs that were unlikely to improve. As button TAggfish I wouldn't really expect BB TAggfish to be 3betting light (more the opposite due to position).
So there's my answer: AA, KK
Gametight's answer is best so far imo.
Answer varies vastly whether this is a 6max or FR table. Tagfish at FR almost never 4bet unless it's deep and they have AA.
If you think I'm the winner don't give me the $50, I just wanted to chime in for fun.
I always wanted to say that I stacked Fnord @ 50nl.... so ship itQuote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
I 4bet all the time without AA, and I'm total tagfish.Quote:
Originally Posted by badgers
Also shouldn't button play in FR be almost the same as in 6max? 3 players left in either way.
Blind play has a much higher impact on your bottom line in 6-max because there is a smaller chance someone outside of the blinds has a hand that crushes the blind's equity (QQ+ and maybe AK/JJ.) In other words, the blinds and button have much more equity. Hence players get used to attacking and defending the blinds because players who play these spots poorly lose money much faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keilah
This is why some folks make more money playing 1.5-2x as many full tables vs 6max. The full ring regulars tend to give up too much value in these spots by folding CO/BN too much and defending poorly. It doesn't take a lot of cycles to nut-camp until these spots hit then play poker.
Since this is a taggfish.....
id say 22+, AQo/s, AJs, KJs, JTs+
If by taggfish you mean like a 1ptbb winner id just take out 22-66. I'm assuming you mean someone whos pretty much breaking even or slightly losing and needs to drop down one level to make monies.
8-8 - Q-Q, 50%(A-K, K-K+), A-Q
Read all your answers...Interesting. Some of you guys asked for more information, personally I think all of you know way too much about what makes to be a good poker player. If he is on the button and straight calls our hero who for all intense purposes should have the "villan" dominated. Then our villain is looking to out flop. He has you on mid pp 8's or 9's.
And you wouldn't have posted this if it wasn't one of those, wtf are you calling me for stories. Which leads me to believe that he called you with AJo...thinking implied odds. So his AJo beat your AKs, or he spiked an Ace on the river to take out your K's/Q's.
Standard taggfish should (and does) try to get it in when he knows he's ahead of an opp's range, so I believe he 4bets QQ+, AKs, AKo 90% of the time. At the same time, I would expect him to fold any marginal hands in this spot because he's facing a fairly large 3bet. He probably folds any K (even KQs) because he should expect big PP and strong aces to be in our hand very often, and KQ is too easily dominated facing a large 3bet. I would suggest that the weakest unpaired hands he calls with are AQs, AQo, and AJs. Anything weaker and there's no way he knows if he's ahead or not on the flop.
Because large PP and AK are a fair part of our percieved range and we're out of position, he shouldn't expect odds to hit a lot of draws postflop, so he should be folding SCs...
His larger PPs, however, still look good enough to him to be considered as overpairs/set value, so he probably calls the 3bet with 99-JJ.
Preflop villain range: 99-JJ, AQs, AQo, AJs
I've never seen a more obvious TT.
Ship it already.
66-JJ (maybe QQ, less likely though)
AQ-AJ KQ (maybe KJ/KTs) QJs (decent broadways)
all decent sc's 78s/98s/T9s/JTs
Id doubt AA/KK are in there a lot, but will be sometimes.
Hmmmmmm... theres so little information to go on here.
His range could be as wide as 22+ 78s+ and suited broadways, or it could be as tight as 77+ AQ+. I tend to disagree that people 4-bet QQ+ often. They autolol4bet AK, and probably call with a majority of their QQ+.
We really need more here though. If he's a 18/14 fagtorsy player he probably folds the vast majority of his opening range to a 3-bet, but at the same time makes meh calls with 22-55. People like that don't realize that 87s is >>>>>>>>> 22 in this situation. So this player i'd just always put him on some sort of pair or AQ type hand when he calls.
Then theres the loose donkish tag who is going to call with general anything thats decent and suited (and obv any pair).
I personally call like any suited connector, suited broadway or 77+ and 4-bet most of my garbagey offsuit aces and AK QQ+ vs someone who has been 3-betting me a fair amount, and probably call like 99+ AQ+ vs someone who isn't 3-betting me v much.
also, since i'm assuming your snarkyness is implying that you disagree with the large 3-bet size, i'll defend it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
We don't go 28 to "deny set odds" we go 28 to "deny position-rape odds."
It really depends on your 3 bet range I guess. Tags are 3 betting so often in blind vs button situations that calling with small pp's is pretty retarded. This is the same reason why 4 betting a tag with AA or KK in this situation probably less than optimal. Of course in position you could call with a very wide range to look and take the pot post flop.
I think the range is more like 88-AA, 78s+, and 9Js+.
The range he is calling with is 22+-QQ, ATs+, KJs+,TJs, and AKo. He is 4betting AA,KK,AKS. All others he is calling with hoping you will check to him and he can bet the flop and take it down hoping you are weak. QJs, is also in his range. He is gonna call with all suited broadways except for the AKs which he 4bet's. He is calling pocket pairs hoping to hit a set because he is getting 9.5-1 implied odds to call.
What a fun tread
so who won the 50?
bump
In case Fnord is too lazy to look back.Quote:
Originally Posted by jyms
i would weight 77-JJ/AQs/AJs/KQs the most, 89s-QJs/QQ+ in the middle, with the smallest part of his range being 22-66/QTs/KJs type stuff.
Winner: Renton
Honorable Mention: Ragnar4, ISF, gametight, Silu73, Da GOAT, nutsinho
A lot of the other posts had some pretty bad misconceptions which makes me happy.
Thanks everyone, your thoughts on this helped a lot.
So what did villain have?
Not a hand history.Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
ok.. so I want to know why Renton's answer is > than my answer.
Seems the simple inclusion is all SC's. Was my line too professional?
I am just curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
So what did villain have?
I agree that Renton gave the most in depth analysis of villains possible range. I just want to get this straight. So, villains range consists of:
In summary: Pocket pairs, suited cards 78+, and AQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
wwwwwiiiiidddddeeeee
Congrats Renton. That's what I get for being too narrow and not very analytical I guess ...lol
Did I win?
how rude of you guys to reveal my range
eat it guys, just eat that