T9o on button

Villain is unknown. I've been pretty aggressive at this table, and got caught bluffing the river a few hands back w/ A high. My concern in this hand is the river...it reeks of a value bet, and quite honestly I don't know what hands c/c, c/c, lead river on a fairly dry board that isn't a monster. Pot odds are pretty good, but I don't think a flush draw is ever making this kind of bet, which is basically the only thing I beat. Is this too nitty?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($9.95)
SB ($10.25)
BB ($10)
UTG ($5.70)
MP ($9.90)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.4, SB calls $0.35, 1 fold.

Flop: ($0.90) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.7, SB calls $0.70.

Turn: ($2.30) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.8, SB calls $1.80.

River: ($5.90) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets $3, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $5.90

Errr, busted FDs often make this kind of bet.

Ugh, so this is what happens when I take a week off from the game :(

Well 98 got there and JT made two pair.
Timing tell would help a lot here. If he bet the river quickly, then I would probably call. If he tanked before betting, then I would probably fold.

must call river for pot odds

Calling seems break even to me, I can't decide one way or another. I call because we get some info.

This hand is fine. Against difficult/erratic opponents I would check the turn behind.

call

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Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds

Calling seems break even to me, I can't decide one way or another. I call because fuck him

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FYP

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Originally Posted by mixchange

must call river for pot odds

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No

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Originally Posted by JL

Well 98 got there and JT made two pair.
Timing tell would help a lot here. If he bet the river quickly, then I would probably call. If he tanked before betting, then I would probably fold.

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His timing if I remember correctly was neither instant nor tankish, so nothing to go by there.

Also, I thought about it a little more, and how often do FDs make a bet like this? They know that they can't beat shit, so wouldn't they bet more to make my decision harder? Idk, I don't think your typical 10NL opponent thinks this deep to "value bet" his bluff. However though, this:

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I call because we get some info.

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sounds completely reasonable, and it's not terribly expensive. But who knows, I may even be overthinking this hand. :?

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Originally Posted by Ash256

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Originally Posted by DJJunkPauds

Calling seems break even to me, I can't decide one way or another. I call because fuck him

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FYP

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That works too.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

This hand is fine. Against difficult/erratic opponents I would check the turn behind.

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pwnage

As an aside, it amazes me how fnord plays much higher limits but still sees to the heart of 10nl villains. A lot of 100nl and 200nl players who critique micro NLH hands on FTR forget how BAD these opponents are. There's a lot of crap hands he might play this way. Calling 1 or 2 streets is fine. By the river, as played, I'm ditching. Like fnord's check behind turn line, too.

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Originally Posted by Robb

As an aside, it amazes me how fnord plays much higher limits but still sees to the heart of 10nl villains.

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In the $5/$10 $500 game I play they play just as bad as a micro online game without the rocks.

Also, I make most of my money online mixing it up with fish more often than the regs and stealing dead money from the regs who are too busy going for volume to mount a defense.

Poker is a game about people, it's not about how much money the blinds are. At 10NL you only have to know how to beat fish. At high stakes games you have to know how to play against good players but you still have to know how to beat fish too.

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

Poker is a game about people, it's not about how much money the blinds are. At 10NL you only have to know how to beat fish. At high stakes games you have to know how to play against good players but you still have to know how to beat fish too.

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yeah but in most cases a fish with a lot of money is going to think they are a smarter player than a fish w/ no money which in turn makes them kinda easier to play against cuz u can actually figure out what they are thinking. the fish who is broke playing 10nl is probly there for fun more than to win and u cant ever figure out what the hell is going through their head.

players are also a product of the games they regularly play in. if the majority are playing passive, others will follow suit. if the majority are playing crazy aggro they will be tempted to mix it up as well.

I disagree, I think their actions SEEM random to successful online middle stake and higher players because they've divorced themselves so far from the weak player mindset, don't see the creature first hand, listen and talk to them about the play of hands. It's just kind of lost in a screen full of numbers.

A few months ago, I played an hour of 1c/2c 6 max just to see how the game played and had such an easy time reading my opponents it was laughable and even enjoyable.

Stronger players are harder to read by definition, because they run somewhat balanced lines, at least on early streets. Also, they play fairly tight, so it's difficult to get a line on thier later street tendencies without a big sample size. It's easier to get a feel for a weaker player because they tend to take their hands too far.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

I disagree, I think their actions SEEM random to successful online middle stake and higher players because they've divorced themselves so far from the weak player mindset, don't see the creature first hand, listen and talk to them about the play of hands. It's just kind of lost in a screen full of numbers.

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This happens sometimes in micro FTR threads where a 100nl player says "do this," and I think "jeez, no way that's the best line, here." And I think they just forgot what it's like to play a game where the smallest mistake wins the hand. But I keep a shortlist of players who (A) can soul read micro villains like fnord or who (B) can see to the heart of my mistakes - not in one individual hand, but how I'm thinking about hands in general that's incorrect. And I read their posts twice.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Stronger players are harder to read by definition, because they run somewhat balanced lines, at least on early streets. Also, they play fairly tight, so it's difficult to get a line on thier later street tendencies without a big sample size. It's easier to get a feel for a weaker player because they tend to take their hands too far.

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I agree with this completely. I think it's a myth among players who are getting good, but not yet all the way GOOD, that bad players are somehow harder to read and play against. (I have a couple friends for whom this myth is a religion.) Yeah there are some random donks who you can't predict at all, but even those people are easy to play against because they play way too many hands and you can just play level 0 against them all day long and turn a healthy profit. The rest of them are ridiculously transparent, employing stupid little blocking bets when they draw, checking when they miss, rarely bluffing in a way that challenges your gameplan, etc. You play an hour with a table full of those guys and you start wishing that they would all fall into money and start playing bigger stakes.

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Originally Posted by Robb

A lot of 100nl and 200nl players who critique micro NLH hands on FTR forget how BAD these opponents are. There's a lot of crap hands he might play this way.

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If they are bad, then we should be barreling our hand MORE often and checking behind the turn LESS often. If they are bad and passive, we should definitely be barreling our hand more, because we can comfortably value bet until we get raised and re-evaluate.

I agree with previous posts that this river call is probably 0ev..but I also like the info we gain even if we're behind.

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Originally Posted by Robb

This happens sometimes in micro FTR threads where a 100nl player says "do this," and I think "jeez, no way that's the best line, here." And I think they just forgot what it's like to play a game where the smallest mistake wins the hand.

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No. You probably just play a really nitty postflop game and because that's profitable at micro stakes you assume it's optimal. However there are other ways to beat these villains for more money than you currently are.

Don't ignore people's posts just because they clash with your current mindset. Again, what makes you think higher-stakes players forgot how to play against fish? There's a lower proportion of them in our games but we still sit down against them whenever we can.

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

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Originally Posted by Robb

This happens sometimes in micro FTR threads where a 100nl player says "do this," and I think "jeez, no way that's the best line, here." And I think they just forgot what it's like to play a game where the smallest mistake wins the hand.

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No. You probably just play a really nitty postflop game and because that's profitable at micro stakes you assume it's optimal. However there are other ways to beat these villains for more money than you currently are. Don't ignore people's posts just because they clash with your current mindset. Again, what makes you think higher-stakes players forgot how to play against fish? There's a lower proportion of them in our games but we still sit down against them whenever we can.

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LoL.

When your opponents are making big mistakes and/or are easy to read a lot of the rules go out the window.

This is why some people who can destroy a live game get crushed online. Their exploitive approach leaks money.

Fnord is right as always.