Playing AK

Was just having a look through my PT hand stats, and my worst hand by a long way is AKo! My net loss is over $23 at 2NL and 5NL, at a rate of almost 2BB per hand.

Does anyone have any good general tips on how to play AK, both pre and post flop?

Pre I generally raise the standard 4xBB + 1xBB per limper, or call if someone has put in a decent raise in front of me. Never just call a limped pot, and rarely re-raise a raised pot.

Post I will pretty much always c-bet on any flop against one or two villains. If I get an A or K (or better) on the flop I usually bet out against any number of villains, or on an aggressive table I will sometimes (but rarely) check/raise.

If I miss the flop in a multiway pot I might bet out if I think I have a lot of fold equity, but usually I'll just check and fold to a decent bet.

But, by far the most common scenario is I standard raise pre-flop, get called by one or two villains, c-bet 3/4 or psb with air, and then get raised. When this happens, I generally fold. Happens ALL the time. I don't think I've lost a lot of huge pots with AKo, but I've lost a lot of money this way. Is there anything different I should be doing here?

Thanks guys!

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Originally Posted by TonyB73

Was just having a look through my PT hand stats, and my worst hand by a long way is AKo! My net loss is over $23 at 2NL and 5NL, at a rate of almost 2BB per hand.

Does anyone have any good general tips on how to play AK, both pre and post flop?

Pre I generally raise the standard 4xBB + 1xBB per limper, or call if someone has put in a decent raise in front of me. Never just call a limped pot, and rarely re-raise a raised pot.

Post I will pretty much always c-bet on any flop against one or two villains. If I get an A or K (or better) on the flop I usually bet out against any number of villains, or on an aggressive table I will sometimes (but rarely) check/raise.

If I miss the flop in a multiway pot I might bet out if I think I have a lot of fold equity, but usually I'll just check and fold to a decent bet.

But, by far the most common scenario is I standard raise pre-flop, get called by one or two villains, c-bet 3/4 or psb with air, and then get raised. When this happens, I generally fold. Happens ALL the time. I don't think I've lost a lot of huge pots with AKo, but I've lost a lot of money this way. Is there anything different I should be doing here?

Thanks guys!

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Sounds like the perfect recipe for losing huge pots and only winning small ones. Cbetting on the flop should be about your opponents, not your cards. You need a read. You shouldn't cbet multiple oppoments, imo, unless your read is that both are weak-tight postflop and will fold without solidly connecting with the flop.

How are you estimating your fold equity? If you're getting raised when you thought you had fold equity "ALL the time," you're obviously mistaken on your read.

OK, so enough critiquing. I'll admit I struggle playing AK postflop. Pre, I will 3bet w/ AK but rarely call a 4bet/shove (need a read to do it). At 10nl and lower, there's not much 3betting or 4betting, so AK is a perfect candidate for the 3bet. It generates both a bigger pot and more fold equity for a later cbet. Flatting AK is OK, but I don't like to do it very often.

Postflop is all read-dependent, especially when you miss. I will cbet only when villains are
1. aggressive (AF > 2)
2. weak-tight postflop
3. able to lay it down (folds cbet >50%)

I almost never cbet into two or more villains without something to go with AK like a QTx flop so I have some extra outs.

you need to do your best to get HU to the flop with your AK. don't cbet flops that are likely to hit villain's range, and get better at 2 barreling. you are probably exaggerating the amount of times you are getting raised on your cbets since that's a lot more memorable than when you take it down.

3bet it more often, especially 3-way (opener+ 1 caller). Do it vs loose donks for value and vs nits for FE. Nits won't stack off with underpair if you outflop them but they will also fold when you whiff.

AK works in great synergy with AA/KK when you take it on 3rd floor, retain initiative and achieve SPR around 5.

What about position in this conversation?

1. Are you more likely to reraise preflop in early position (one of the blinds) or late? Or is it irrelevant?

2. Are you more likely to c-bet a missed flop (or 2 barrel) in position or out of position in a heads up flop?

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Originally Posted by Robb

Sounds like the perfect recipe for losing huge pots and only winning small ones. Cbetting on the flop should be about your opponents, not your cards. You need a read. You shouldn't cbet multiple oppoments, imo, unless your read is that both are weak-tight postflop and will fold without solidly connecting with the flop.

How are you estimating your fold equity? If you're getting raised when you thought you had fold equity "ALL the time," you're obviously mistaken on your read.

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I only c-bet multiple players when I think I have fold equity, and I judge that by my reads on individual players. How tight are they? What sort of range can I put them on? How did they play it pre? What have I seen them do in similar positions before?

I pretty much auto c-bet against one player though (and too often against two as well, which I think is large part of my problem). This is the situation I get raised, not when I've c-bet because I think the others will fold.

And thanks for your other tips on playing AK. Will take them on board.

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Originally Posted by deacon_bluez

What about position in this conversation?

1. Are you more likely to reraise preflop in early position (one of the blinds) or late? Or is it irrelevant?

2. Are you more likely to c-bet a missed flop (or 2 barrel) in position or out of position in a heads up flop?

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Good question. I am generally quite positionally aware - my overall VPIP on the button is about 3 times what it is UTG - but as I think about it, I think I play AK basically the same way in any position. Both pre and post-flop.

Pre-flop I just raise it up regardless of position. Post-flop I will c-bet OOP, and I am in position I find pretty much all villains check to me, then I bet, and often they raise. And I fold.

I've been reading NLHETAP lately, and in the Concepts section at the back Sklansky and Miller argue that AK has some particular properties that mean that the best play is often to just get it all-in pre-flop.

The key is that AK is hard to play post-flop, but has a lot of showdown value. Pre-flop you're a favourite against all unpaired cards, a coin-flip against QQ-22, moderate dog against KK and big dog against AA. So essentially, the reasoning is that the only hand you're really scared of is AA, and if you just push with AK you'll get folded too often enough, and you'll outdraw your opponent when you get called often enough, to make it profitable.

Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by TonyB73

I've been reading NLHETAP lately, and in the Concepts section at the back Sklansky and Miller argue that AK has some particular properties that mean that the best play is often to just get it all-in pre-flop.

The key is that AK is hard to play post-flop, but has a lot of showdown value. Pre-flop you're a favourite against all unpaired cards, a coin-flip against QQ-22, moderate dog against KK and big dog against AA. So essentially, the reasoning is that the only hand you're really scared of is AA, and if you just push with AK you'll get folded too often enough, and you'll outdraw your opponent when you get called often enough, to make it profitable.

Any thoughts?

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are you trying to justify making massive overbet shoves preflop with AK or something? cuz that's def not the answer.

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by TonyB73

I've been reading NLHETAP lately, and in the Concepts section at the back Sklansky and Miller argue that AK has some particular properties that mean that the best play is often to just get it all-in pre-flop.

The key is that AK is hard to play post-flop, but has a lot of showdown value. Pre-flop you're a favourite against all unpaired cards, a coin-flip against QQ-22, moderate dog against KK and big dog against AA. So essentially, the reasoning is that the only hand you're really scared of is AA, and if you just push with AK you'll get folded too often enough, and you'll outdraw your opponent when you get called often enough, to make it profitable.

Any thoughts?

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are you trying to justify making massive overbet shoves preflop with AK or something? cuz that's def not the answer.

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I tend to struggle with AK post flop also. Pre-flop I'm in for 3-4xBB with no raisers in front of me, with a raise in front I'm trying to isolate against him so I'm in for 3xhis raise, which usually gets me heads up... now it gets tricky...

If the flop hits you at all... and you have position... you are betting his check, raising his raise, calling his overly aggressive raise...

If the flop misses you totally... and you have position, you are betting his check, potentially folding to his raise...

But I'm still learning around here, and have some weird ideas... my biggest problem with AK is when I miss the flop totally, and I'm unsuited/suited wrong... if I bet into it I tend to get called and flushed out on... but often I also see the c-bet gets folded to immediately...

Lately I've also seen a lot of hands where I raise and get shoved over on, being a snap caller, I tend to call wtih Ak and then find that I'm facing another AK... often it is comical.

This was a rambling post. I apologize.

is this shorthanded or full ring?

it depends obviously.

if ak is a big loser over many hands it's probs because you're overvaluing tptk in too many spots vs setfarmers

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Originally Posted by martindcx1e

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Originally Posted by TonyB73

I've been reading NLHETAP lately, and in the Concepts section at the back Sklansky and Miller argue that AK has some particular properties that mean that the best play is often to just get it all-in pre-flop.

The key is that AK is hard to play post-flop, but has a lot of showdown value. Pre-flop you're a favourite against all unpaired cards, a coin-flip against QQ-22, moderate dog against KK and big dog against AA. So essentially, the reasoning is that the only hand you're really scared of is AA, and if you just push with AK you'll get folded too often enough, and you'll outdraw your opponent when you get called often enough, to make it profitable.

Any thoughts?

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are you trying to justify making massive overbet shoves preflop with AK or something? cuz that's def not the answer.

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I'm not trying to convince you all, if that's what you're asking. I've actually never done it myself (and don't think I'm about to start). But I did read it in Sklansky & Miller's NLHETAP, Concept No. 22, p259 - check it out if you don't believe me.

Its an opinion of two guys who are supposed to be world-recognised authorities on poker, so all I'm doing is throwing it out there to generate some discussion. I don't expect everyone to say "yes, thats the way to play AK". I expect most people to say its rubbish actually, but hopefully there might be some learnings in the reasons they give for why they disagree.

AK is still a massive loser for me (and getting bigger) so the more I can learn about how to play it, the better. And I don't think I'm alone in having AK trouble, so if other people get something out of the discussion generated too, great.

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Originally Posted by pgil

is this shorthanded or full ring?

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The original post refers to 5NL FR, as that was all I was playing then. I've since started playing 5NL 6-max but I don't think I'm doing much better with AK there.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions from everyone here. It seems AK is just not easy post-flop, but I've learned quite a bit from what people have said.

I suspect I have a few particular problems, one of which is being too blindly aggressive on the flop, especially OOP, without thinking enough about board texture, likely opponent ranges, etc. In fact I'm generally pretty poor at putting villains on a range, like a lot of noobs I'm sure, so I'm trying to work on that as much as I can.

Cheers!

I have some difficulty putting opponents on ranges too at microstakes - problem is that lots of folks will play back with really odd stuff like Q9o or A8o, 73s, etc.. And occasionally, when two or more of these guys get together, someone ends up winning a big pot with Q9o and then that re-enforces the thought that Q9o is a potentially winning hand with which to call PFR with. So you never know, when the flop comes Q9A rainbow, your AK is a dog. They're playing back at me because they have a decent hand, but I'm thinking "no way they beat my AK at this stage".

If you are playing FR micros, I would be more judicious with my pf 3bets with AK. It's not a made hand, and you don't really have a lot of FE against most of these players, so why build a big pot that you are going to have a hard time continuing on most of the time when you can flat call and still take a big pot when the A or K falls? At the micros you don't have to 3bet lighter to get your big pairs paid off, as people aren't noticing that you are only 3betting TT+ (or whatever your range is). This is especially true in position.

If they do fold pf, you likely had them dominated, and it's not a good thing to fold out dominated hands when you have position.

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Originally Posted by pgil

If you are playing FR micros, I would be more judicious with my pf 3bets with AK.

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I 3bet AK relentlessly at 10nl, both FR and 6max.

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Originally Posted by pgil

It's not a made hand, and you don't really have a lot of FE against most of these players, so why build a big pot that you are going to have a hard time continuing on most of the time when you can flat call and still take a big pot when the A or K falls?

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Why build a big pot? Because...

29% of the time, the flop has exactly one A or K
3.4% of the time, the flop has exactly two's A's, two K's or is AKx
0.1% of the time, the flop is ALL A's and K's

And there IS fold equity pre, and even more postflop (depending on board texture, stack sizes, position, etc). Also, villain has to define his hand pretty narrowly if he flats a 3bet. Now that I've learned a bit about 3betting pre, I'm really widening my 3betting range, even at 10nl. Here's why. Think about what he can have that would lead to an "open raise, flat call the rr" betting line preflop.

AA, KK will almost ALWAYS 4bet. We can basically ignore them, and just pay them off in the rare instance they show up.

What other hands can villain flat the 3bet with? Not saying these are good hands to flat call 3bets with - I'm saying this is what I see villains calling 3bets with.

QQ - 22 (though the small pp's are less likely)
Big or sooted aces like AJ+, Axs
sc's (less likely, but big sc's like KQs, JTs happens)

And not much else.

And think about it. We're dominating Ax and Kx, ahead of any two unpaired cards and a coin flip against any pp that's likely to be out there.

So we're basically playing AK against pp's QQ and worse on the flop. What's not to like?

11.75% of the time, villain with a pp flops a set (7.5 to 1 odds against it). The rest of the time, we still have about 25% equity against the pp even when we miss the flop completely. Against such a narrow range, we can play this flop expertly without much trouble.

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Originally Posted by pgil

when you can flat call and still take a big pot when the A or K falls? At the micros you don't have to 3bet lighter to get your big pairs paid off, as people aren't noticing that you are only 3betting TT+ (or whatever your range is). This is especially true in position.

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Pgil is exactly right, here. You DON'T have to 3bet AK pre to play it profitably, but it's difficult to get in a hand where you've 3bet pre and are oop on the flop. It's NOT very difficult to get squeezed when you flat the original open raise from, say, MP with something like TT or AK. And then you've probably got to lay it down.

Bottom line, getting AK paid off is easier from LP in both cases, when you 3bet and when you flat.

Building the bigger pot makes sense because the REACTION to the 3bet will very narrowly define villain's holdings.

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Originally Posted by pgil

If they do fold pf, you likely had them dominated, and it's not a good thing to fold out dominated hands when you have position.

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This is true more for LAGG's whereas for TAGG's (say 16/12 or tighter), you're probably getting the small pp's to fold in about the same ratio as dominated hands do. For LAGG's, the situation is better, not worse, since they're more likely to continue with crap.

By the way, I don't disagree with pgil. You can certainly play AK profitably without becoming a 3betting monkey preflop . But you can also be profitable when you are AK 3betting monkey. If you understand what it means for flop play.