How to play KA optimumly?

For this dicussion i would like to assume there is only one villian and both of u have 100BB in a 6-handed game (everyone else folds)

Situation 1:

CO raises 3.5
Hero KAs/KAo raises 12
CO raises 36
Hero ??

This is a very common situation i find myself in. From what i know, shoving here to maximize fold equity from a race is the most common play. However, i always find that the villian will have QQ, KK, AA or KA if he calls my shove. Im a slight underdog against QQ, draw with KA and a big dog against KK or AA. Even if my opponent is loose, he might call me with JJ. Wouldnt this turn my hand into a bluff? since i dont beat any hand in his calling range?

Situation 2:

Hero raises 3.5
CO raises 12
Hero raises 36
CO raises 60
Hero ??

A min 5-bet? what do i do here? its always so tempting to shove, but i have zero fold equity since he already invested 60% of his stack. What is the optimum play ere? shove or fold? Calling is just retarded since we have 40 more and the pot will be 121.5 on the flop.

Situation 3:

Hero raises 3.5
CO raises 12
Hero raises 36
CO calls

Now the pot is 73.5 and i have 67BB left. Its obvious im shoving and monster draw or pair, but what if i miss?

a) small flop 245, 225, 589
b) mix flop Q42, J95
c) big flop JQ2, 10J6, 8910

to shove or check fold? Reminder, if u shove and get call..u are ALWAYS behind..

Situation 4:

CO raises to 3.5
Hero KhAh raises to 12
CO raies to 28
Hero ??

Pot = 41.5 and u have 88BB left. Not comitted to the pot yet, shove or call or fold? Its almost too tight to fold here i think? Shoving here would make my hand like situation 1. I dont think a regular tag is going to call ur over shove with QA here, so its either a race or dominate. If u are dominated, it means u have fallen for his small 4-bet trap to get u all in. Say just cold call, trying not to build the pot with KA high. The pot is now 57.5 and we have 72BB left.

a) Assume the villian bets half pot 100% of the time regardless of the flop texture, what kinda flop are we looking for to move all in?
b) If we flop a K and villian more all in OOP. Must we call?

Thanks for ur opinion in advance

if opponenet is aggro shove in every spot.

I guess for this discussion its better to assume u have no information on villian.

Lawls at post below, do you beat 2nl?

1) fold
2) fold
3) why are we 4betting?
4) fold

LAwls wont let me delete posts... ill just LAwls it away.. peace

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

1) fold
2) fold
3) why are we 4betting?
4) fold

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wat?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bode

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

1) fold
2) fold
3) why are we 4betting?
4) fold

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wat?

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I'm serious. Having said that, does everyone 3bet 55+, KT+, A7+ over at stars?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bode

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

1) fold
2) fold
3) why are we 4betting?
4) fold

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wat?

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I'm serious. Having said that, does everyone 3bet 55+, KT+, A7+ over at stars?

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quit poker

Whatever; I play at a euro site where people rarely 3bet without strength, and I figured that OP was most likely talking about microstakes where people don't 3bet particularly light.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

Whatever; I play at a euro site where people rarely 3bet without strength, and I figured that OP was most likely talking about microstakes where people don't 3bet particularly light.

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o i'm sorry, your post was so detailed i missed that... in fact i wanted to apologize because i now fold AK to all 3bets and 4bets. Thank you for posting exactly why fold fold fold fold is the most optimal line with AK.

[quote="HybridTt"]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

Whatever; I play at a euro site where people rarely 3bet without strength, and I figured that OP was most likely talking about microstakes where people don't 3bet particularly light.

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o i'm sorry, your post was so detailed i missed that... in fact i wanted to apologize because i now fold AK to all 3bets and 4bets. Thank you for posting exactly why fold fold fold fold is the most optimal line with AK.[/quote

np

Thanks for telling me exactly why you disagree with my opinion - your post was so detailed I missed that.

I don't know what stakes you two are playing at, but FWIW, 3-bets and 4-bets are QQ+ 90% of the time in my experience. I suppose I'm going to get sarcastically grilled by HybridTt for saying this, but I usually just throw away AK in these situations without a read.

[quote="Ash256"]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HybridTt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ash256

Whatever; I play at a euro site where people rarely 3bet without strength, and I figured that OP was most likely talking about microstakes where people don't 3bet particularly light.

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o i'm sorry, your post was so detailed i missed that... in fact i wanted to apologize because i now fold AK to all 3bets and 4bets. Thank you for posting exactly why fold fold fold fold is the most optimal line with AK.[/quote

np

Thanks for telling me exactly why you disagree with my opinion - your post was so detailed I missed that.

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1. if we are oop shove.
If we are in position, if we think he has a tight calling range but a wide 4betting range then shove. If we think that he has a tight 4betting range and a wide calling range relative to his 4betting range we flat it... also in this situation he also has to have a high % to cbet, if his cbet % is 35% or less shove instead. If he has a wide 4betting range and a wide shove calling range we flat to increase our value from AQs-A10s hands... I think there is a misconception here, if he has a wide 4 betting range and has a tight calling range that IS GOOD not bad... that means we pick up 36$ more often to offset when we get it in behind(60/40%). IF his range is small to start with we have less FE.. the way to think of this hand is what is his 4betting range and how far apart is his 4betting range from his 5bet calling range.
IF its a big difference shove, if he only 4bets what hes calling, we flat since we are prob in the middle of his range, but flatting without initiative is only profitable if he cbets all A and K flops for us as well(An extra free bet). If his range is tight and he only 4bets what he is calling and he does not cbet at least 40% we can fold preflop if we are oop and we can flat or fold in position..(this is possible at low stakes)

Another thing to think about is that, there is no correct answer because say your a nitt his range will be tighter on calling and shoving which will change everything... say your agressive you will NEVER be folding this ever ever.. ALso lets say shoving is -ev in this spot and its never really that -ev vs a unknown, it will increase your EV on AA and KK because ppl will need to call you lighter ...that being said if you dont know what to do folding to a 4bet is not that -ev vs a unknown and it will lower your variance....

2. 4bets too big, u have to call any shove with the odds you gave yourself, and i mean any... make it like 2x+ a fewbb in position and just shove oop. Also keep in mind 4betting AK vs most ranges and folding to a 5bet shove is -ev so don't 4bet endless your willing to call a shove90% of the time.

3. same thing, if you make ur cbet smaller and ur in position when he checks i would bet/f half pot on all tier1 and tier2 flops check behind flops where i have gutterballs, and c/f tier 3 4 and 5 flops..
4. too lazy

here is a ev calc hope i was helpful i know i ramble a lot but i think an anwser without the why means nothing(Ash256 aka retard)... i forgot to factor in attempt to steal and leveling(which may or may not be important to op)... o well too lazy but since hes in the CO it helps us determine his range...

http://www.rvgsoftware.com/

If you play with this you can create optimal ranges vs your other players

to ash256 ...GG donk... like i said before quit poker, and thanks for your detailed post.

lol, inappropriate comment :oops:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

I don't know what stakes you two are playing at, but FWIW, 3-bets and 4-bets are QQ+ 90% of the time in my experience. I suppose I'm going to get sarcastically grilled by HybridTt for saying this, but I usually just throw away AK in these situations without a read.

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No i wont lol ok honestly ill stop being sarcastic for a moment lets just analyze this post. OP has a serious question he spent 3-5 paragraphs writing because he honestly doesn't understand how to determine what to do in each situation.

Then Ash256 posts
Fold
Fold
y are we 4betting
Fold

This doesn't tell the OP anything and if he follows this he will be extremely exploitable and get destroyed against a player who is semi-good... its just sad how bad some advice is here.... Let me apologize for being sarcastic but ash your terrible some people on this forum are trying to learn try not to give them terrible advice.

If Ash is correct in the assumption that OP plays the micros, then I think his advice is spot on. 3-bet ranges are generally very narrow, and 4-bets are almost always AA/KK.

Hybrid, I looked at your post history and had you down as a 2+2 troll - apologies & ty for explanation & thought process.

I figured OP was a micro player because:-

a) He mentioned non-specific equities vs. particular hands rather than a stoved global equity
b) He posted in BBs and not actual $ values

Based on these assumptions, I didn't feel exploitability vs. good players really mattered much - though I certainly am exploitable vs. someone good.


Here's an in-depth response to each hand (and thanks to your post my opinion may have changed lol):-

Results from http:\\www.HoldEmRanger.com
575,334,144 evaluations, 336 hole card combos

Pre-flop

Wins Ties Equity Fold
19.26% 20.33% 39.59% - ( AK )
40.08% 20.33% 60.41% 74.07% ( AA,KK,QQ,AK,/AT-AQ,88-JJ )


This is assuming a medium-wide 4bet range and that he folds everything past the /. - My mind is screwed today and I can't remember how to factor FE but by the looks of it shoving vs. a wide 4bet range is correct.

BUT

If he has a shorter 4bet range and calls every time:-

Results from http:\\www.HoldEmRanger.com
739,715,328 evaluations, 432 hole card combos

Pre-flop

Wins Ties Equity
24.68% 15.86% 40.54% ( AK )
43.60% 15.86% 59.46% ( AA,KK,QQ,AK,JJ )

- no goot

2) We're fucked

Results from http:\\www.HoldEmRanger.com
328,762,368 evaluations, 192 hole card combos

Pre-flop

Wins Ties Equity
27.31% 0.43% 27.74% ( AK )
71.83% 0.43% 72.26% ( AA,KK,QQ(50) )

3) 4betting screws up our spot because we're vs. a tight range going to a flop which rarely gins (and if we make top pair we're not getting much action because opp's range is mostly decent PPs) .. though it may be closer than that.

4) Opp has momentum, we can't really call, and I don't think shoving is optimal though I can't be sure.

wait what? you have AK, you should be looking to felt unless opponenet is a nit. i don't understand why this is a discussion. either that or have been playing waaaaay wrong for a long time.

did anyone else look at KA in the thread title and have to think about what it meant for awhile? and no i didnt read thread, looked boring.

[quote="Ash256"]Hybrid, I looked at your post history and had you down as a 2+2 troll - apologies & ty for explanation & thought process.

I figured OP was a micro player because:-

a) He mentioned non-specific equities vs. particular hands rather than a stoved global equity
b) He posted in BBs and not actual $ values

Based on these assumptions, I didn't feel exploitability vs. good players really mattered much - though I certainly am exploitable vs. someone good.


Here's an in-depth response to each hand (and thanks to your post my opinion may have changed lol):-

Results from http:\\www.HoldEmRanger.com
575,334,144 evaluations, 336 hole card combos

Pre-flop

Wins Ties Equity Fold
19.26% 20.33% 39.59% - ( AK )
40.08% 20.33% 60.41% 74.07% ( AA,KK,QQ,AK,/AT-AQ,88-JJ )


This is assuming a medium-wide 4bet range and that he folds everything past the /. - My mind is screwed today and I can't remember how to factor FE but by the looks of it shoving vs. a wide 4bet range is correct.

BUT

If he has a shorter 4bet range and calls every time:-

Results from http:\\www.HoldEmRanger.com
739,715,328 evaluations, 432 hole card combos

Pre-flop

Wins Ties Equity
24.68% 15.86% 40.54% ( AK )
43.60% 15.86% 59.46% ( AA,KK,QQ,AK,JJ )

- no goot

....

you can't just PS stove it because there is dead money in the pot around 50$, to get a fold/flatcall/shove statement you would need to find out your FE and if you have no FE use immediate POT ODDS... IF there is 200$ pot and i have 50$ left to shove... and i have 30% is that a fold??? too lazy to show u pot odds but i will help u learn FE.

Example...

Button ($81.10)
SB ($89.40)
Hero ($100)
UTG ($66.50)
UTG+1 ($127.85)
MP1 ($111.30)
MP2 ($104)
MP3 ($96.15)
CO ($92.40)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2s, Ah.
5 folds, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($4) Jh, 2h, 4h (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks, Button bets $5, SB folds, Hero raises to $15, CO folds, Button raises to $42, hero ?????

The math of to shove or fold.

When villian folds we win 59$

When he calls we lose (I used the equity of a made flush for villian.)
69% of the time 69$ vs a made flush = 47.81$ of EV (you can use his range here vs ours)
31% of the time we win 182$ = -56.42 of ev
Total ev of -8.61$

So by pushing expressed as a equation...

pushing EV = 59$*x + (-8.61$)*(1-x) = 0
x = % fold equity needed to make this play.
So we solve for X
59x + 8.61x - 8.61 = 0
67.61x = 8.61
X = .11
This means we need a fold 11% of the time... so if you like u can redo your assumptions after using this equation related to this hand... this equation factors in equity vs range, FE and pot odds. your post had only equity vs range.

Let's not flame the new guy too much. This guy has some valid points and this is a good calculation. Rarely does someone go into this depth on this site - i say more please.

Just because your behind with only 40% or less equity it doesn't make folding the most profitable.


Also this is not always the only range.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (10 handed) Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

SB ($4.35)
BB ($2.35)
UTG ($1.98)
UTG+1 ($5.34)
UTG+2 ($5.10)
MP1 ($8.73)
MP2 ($4.88)
MP3 ($1.42)
CO ($4.24)
Hero ($5.49)

Preflop: Hero is Button with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/js.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/jh.gif.
UTG calls $0.04, UTG+1 raises to $0.08, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.08, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.4, 2 folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $5.34 (All-In), MP1 folds, Hero calls $4.94.

Flop: ($10.84) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/tc.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/3s.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/2s.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($10.84) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qs.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($10.84) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/td.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $10.94

Results
UTG+1 has Th As (three of a kind, tens).
Hero has Js Jh (two pair, jacks and tens).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $10.84.

we need to be given a reason to not felt AK pf

The problem is once you have a reason, you have enough dead money to make the call

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

we need to be given a reason to not felt AK pf

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obv we do read ash256's post. fold fold fold fold...?

i am more inclined to 4 bet shove with AK, especially oop. situation 2, unless he is a huge nit i just ship it in. im not a big fan of 4bet/folding, unless were deep or have a really good reason. situation 4 im shoving. i mean all these are so read dependent as wufwugy said, and you didnt offer any reads.

in relation to ash256 and hybrid's arguments -
ash, if you are inclined to fold AK as often as you say, then you are just unbelievably nitty, and probably really exploitable preflop. i wonder how you play QQ in these situations mentioned. i didnt read the really long posts, but hybrid you actually appear to be right imo, but people would receive your message much better if you werent being such a douche about it.

Ashe is completely correct here if someone's range is AK+ QQ+ then all the situations are fold since this advice was given to a microstakes player, wether you can be that precise on this range is another question. However if the tone of the anguement stays the same I'll go and start reading 2+2. I can't honestly believe people who's opinion I respect continue to put up with this crap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kagey

Ashe is completely correct here if someone's range is AK+ QQ+ then all the situations are fold since this advice was given to a microstakes player, wether you can be that precise on this range is another question. However if the tone of the anguement stays the same I'll go and start reading 2+2. I can't honestly believe people who's opinion I respect continue to put up with this crap.

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like i said, completely read dependent. yeah ash is right, if we are playing total nits, than he is right to fold most places. but i think hybrids point is that folding AK pre is usually a mistake. also i wouldnt consider 100nl microstakes.

also if you think 2p2 is better you are sorely mistaken. this kind of disrespectful arguing doesnt really happen that often here, but ppl at 2p2 do it constantly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Just because your behind with only 40% or less equity it doesn't make folding the most profitable.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by EzDuzIt

did anyone else look at KA in the thread title and have to think about what it meant for awhile? and no i didnt read thread, looked boring.

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he was going from least valued card to most valued card ldo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by will641

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kagey

Ashe is completely correct here if someone's range is AK+ QQ+ then all the situations are fold since this advice was given to a microstakes player, wether you can be that precise on this range is another question. However if the tone of the anguement stays the same I'll go and start reading 2+2. I can't honestly believe people who's opinion I respect continue to put up with this crap.

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like i said, completely read dependent. yeah ash is right, if we are playing total nits, than he is right to fold most places. but i think hybrids point is that folding AK pre is usually a mistake. also i wouldnt consider 100nl microstakes.

also if you think 2p2 is better you are sorely mistaken. this kind of disrespectful arguing doesnt really happen that often here, but ppl at 2p2 do it constantly.

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My point here is that folding is optimal sometimes, raising is optimal sometimes and flatting is optimal sometimes. But folding always or saying its the *standard* at micro doesn't help the op make a real time decision. OP needs to know why to do what and how to apply this information to other situations. And to argue that it is optimal to fold as a standard, then give math with stove without doing pot odds or FE makes no sense... this type of info does more hurt then good... So i called him retarded... Sorry for being a jerk... ok my apologize for attacking him personally.

even w/ a crazy image at 100nl i still find playing AK for stacks preflop to be an at best breakeven play. people just dont get it in light enough often enough.

of course there are situations where it's necessary and unavoidable, but in most cases i flat AK to a 3bet at 100 and lower, 200nl definitely playing for stacks in almost every case

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshall28

even w/ a crazy image at 100nl i still find playing AK for stacks preflop to be an at best breakeven play. people just dont get it in light enough often enough.

of course there are situations where it's necessary and unavoidable, but in most cases i flat AK to a 3bet at 100 and lower, 200nl definitely playing for stacks in almost every case

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at 100nl and 200nl vs a reg shoving AK is good because it will make him pay off our AA, KK at a higher frequency, and i agree again its neutral EV but it increases how much our entire 4bet range gets paid( i say regs, because regs will remember) .... Vs donks flatting is good i agree too(they wont remember your neutral EV shove) cuz their range is wide and they stack off light if we hit a A and dominated them. At below 100nl flatting is a good option and folding is good vs nitts at 50nl and 100nl. I LOVE THIS POSTER THIS POST GIVEs ME INCITE AND ITS VERY GOOD... K... I'M NOT A COMPLETE HATER.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HybridTt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshall28

even w/ a crazy image at 100nl i still find playing AK for stacks preflop to be an at best breakeven play. people just dont get it in light enough often enough.

of course there are situations where it's necessary and unavoidable, but in most cases i flat AK to a 3bet at 100 and lower, 200nl definitely playing for stacks in almost every case

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at 100nl and 200nl vs a reg shoving AK is good because it will make him pay off our AA, KK at a higher frequency, and i agree again its neutral EV but it increases how much our entire 4bet range gets paid( i say regs, because regs will remember) .... Vs donks flatting is good i agree too(they wont remember your neutral EV shove) cuz their range is wide and they stack off light if we hit a A and dominated them. At below 100nl flatting is a good option and folding is good vs nitts at 50nl and 100nl. I LOVE THIS POSTER THIS POST GIVEs ME INCITE AND ITS VERY GOOD... K... I'M NOT A COMPLETE HATER.

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personally, i find the difference between 100nl and 200nl to be extremely large. obv i agree against thinking non nitty preflop players that what you say is 100% right about balancing your range to get paid off w/ AA/KK, but the discrepancy between 100 and 200 is too large imo for it to be a good play..hence my reason for flatting AK at 100 .. i also flat almsot all of these hands in most situations because of this reason. at 200nl however, im 4bet and 5bet bluffing w/ air as well as jamming JJ+ /AQ+ for value quite often.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

The problem is once you have a reason, you have enough dead money to make the call

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well then its not a reason

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kagey

Ashe is completely correct here if someone's range is AK+ QQ+ then all the situations are fold since this advice was given to a microstakes player, wether you can be that precise on this range is another question. However if the tone of the anguement stays the same I'll go and start reading 2+2. I can't honestly believe people who's opinion I respect continue to put up with this crap.

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AK + odds/these amounts of dead money = proft vs that range

on the contrary, i find little difference between .5/1 and 1/2

but ive played a lot of both and know how to combat all player types

when wufwugy makes two consecutive posts its really hard to concentrate, as you have 6 perfect asses (4 in motion) right in front of you.

i disagree that its a neural ev move to get it in pre with AK. it has so much fold equity and we are only big dogs to AA.

i think 100nl is much diff than 200nl also. its not like night and day, but it is different. i had a much harder time adjusting when moving from 100 to 200nl than from 50 to 100nl. the main thing is the 3 betting frequency.

the 3betting frequency is what makes AK such a stronger hand at 200nl than at 100nl. AK at micro stakes for me is not a big winner ... but from 200nl up .. .especially at 400/600nl its in my top 5 biggest winners.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HybridTt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marshall28

even w/ a crazy image at 100nl i still find playing AK for stacks preflop to be an at best breakeven play. people just dont get it in light enough often enough.

of course there are situations where it's necessary and unavoidable, but in most cases i flat AK to a 3bet at 100 and lower, 200nl definitely playing for stacks in almost every case

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at 100nl and 200nl vs a reg shoving AK is good because it will make him pay off our AA, KK at a higher frequency, and i agree again its neutral EV but it increases how much our entire 4bet range gets paid( i say regs, because regs will remember) .... Vs donks flatting is good i agree too(they wont remember your neutral EV shove) cuz their range is wide and they stack off light if we hit a A and dominated them. At below 100nl flatting is a good option and folding is good vs nitts at 50nl and 100nl. I LOVE THIS POSTER THIS POST GIVEs ME INCITE AND ITS VERY GOOD... K... I'M NOT A COMPLETE HATER.

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this is a good post and pretty much sums up my view of playing AK at 100nl, and 50nl i guess.

like i said i disagree about significant differences between .5/1 and 1/2 in this regard, but even if there are, i seriously seriously doubt that not felting AK in many cases at .5/1 is correct.

obviously if against a big enough nit then AK can even be too weak to 3bet; i've folded AK and QQ for 100bb at 2/4 and been happy about it, so it's not like i think it's a stake difference completely or im a maniac.

however, you guys are not looking at the big picture. AK is an excellent 4betting hand vs the large majority of players at .5/1 because their 3betting ranges are wide enough that we pick up dead money a lot and we run well vs their felting range because it includes QQ AK (almost nobody folds those shorthanded. trust me i know what fullring is like in comparison). simply just apply shania to this and it works.

it may just be that felting AK is less good at .5/1 than 1/2, but it's still good under many circumstances.

I agree with all of the above. Felting AK at 100nl in most situations is definitely good. The Stars 100nl game is pretty aggro and I haven't noticed a huge difference between 100nl and 200nl.