Where there anything I could have done to not suck out here?

Is this just one of those times where you to say that you will get the money back sooner or later, or could I have done something to prevent this (like going all in on the flop)?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($3.09)
CO ($4.91)
Button ($6.65)
SB ($2.78)
BB ($6.63)
Hero ($5.76)
MP1 ($1.82)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
Hero raises to $0.08, MP1 calls $0.08, 1 fold, CO calls $0.08, 3 folds.

Flop: ($0.27) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $0.27, MP1 calls $0.27, CO calls $0.27.

Turn: ($1.08) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $1, MP1 calls $1, CO calls $1.

River: ($4.08) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $0.47 (All-In), CO raises to $0.94, Hero calls $0.94.

Final Pot: $6.43

*** SHOW DOWN ***
Truckatrolla: shows [7d Ad] (a straight, Six to Ten)
Miss_newbie: mucks hand
Truckatrolla collected $0.89 from side pot
tricbodean: mucks hand [J9o]
Matrix78224 joins the table at seat #5
Truckatrolla collected $5.24 from main pot

I don't know... I think going AI pre-flop may have done it, but after the flop, I think villan calls.

And the same thing here, I am starting to have the feeling that I stink at this :cry:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($2.98)
UTG ($8.08)
UTG+1 ($1.92)
MP1 ($6.47)
MP2 ($1.24)
MP3 ($4.93)
CO ($7.44)
Hero ($5.14)
SB ($0.98)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, 1 fold, CO calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.12, 1 fold, BB calls $0.10, MP2 calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10.

Flop: ($0.49) Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero bets $0.4, BB folds, MP2 folds, CO calls $0.40.

Turn: ($1.29) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
CO bets $0.22, Hero calls $0.22.

River: ($1.73) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
CO bets $0.7, Hero calls $0.70.

Final Pot: $3.13

And he had a straight

At the moment I am trying to learn about hand range, but I think it is impossible at this level, I can never guess what they are holding...

How do you know if you suck at poker or if it is just variance, when you are new the game and are not sure if you are playing correctly?

Do you just fold and only bet the nuts, or how do I do this...?

My stats are 17/10/3, but am only breaking even... Do I thigthen up even more, or what do I do?

An open ended straight draw is almost an automatic call from micro stakes players. A huge bet on the flop maybe villian lays it down but really he may call anyway. I mean he called .80 pre-flop with an A-7 ( I know, it was sooooted ) .

don't worry about it, just move on and take it back.

oops, it was .08 he called. My bad. doesn't change my answer though. :lol:

slow down on the turn, and fold the river after another player calls. you aren't beating a lot.

On top of that something to remember is it is Micro-stakes and some players just call with anything. I played one this past weekend where a guy was going all in with 8-3 then with 7-4 not even suited and he won both hands.

Pgil: I am assuming that you are refeering to my first hand?

What do you suggest on the turn, a ½ PSB or anything else (and then a fold on the river?)?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lonny

At the moment I am trying to learn about hand range, but I think it is impossible at this level, I can never guess what they are holding...

How do you know if you suck at poker or if it is just variance, when you are new the game and are not sure if you are playing correctly?

Do you just fold and only bet the nuts, or how do I do this...?

My stats are 17/10/3, but am only breaking even... Do I thigthen up even more, or what do I do?

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There is so much to say about this post in reference to your HH's that I amnot sure if someone will post before I get the chance

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lonny

At the moment I am trying to learn about hand range, but I think it is impossible at this level, I can never guess what they are holding...

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First off, you don't guess what they are holding. It's a group of hands, which hand will call, which hands will fold and which hands will raise. In the JJ hand you have OESD and overpair. This is a pretty strong hand. What hands will call those flop and turn bets? He can see a 89T draw heavy board as well as you. when the 6 falls on the turn, what hands are left that can call bets that called preflop? Lastly, what hand do you beat on the river that can still be around after the betting. I would like you to point out one hand that you beat on the river.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lonny

How do you know if you suck at poker or if it is just variance, when you are new the game and are not sure if you are playing correctly?

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None of this is variance. You suck, we all pretty much suck, that's why we are here. Get better. You do not ever need to be the best player, just the best player at your table/tables.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lonny

Do you just fold and only bet the nuts, or how do I do this...?

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You know this answer. It's not about wining hands, it's about winning money. Look at the best players on this site, their W$SD is around 50%, meaning they win almost as many showdowns as they lose. What does this tell you. Seriously, Answer this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lonny

My stats are 17/10/3, but am only breaking even... Do I thigthen up even more, or what do I do?

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This is the final piece. Who the hell cares about your stats. You just posted two hands and not a thing was mentioned about the villains. Did you have any thoughts on either of these hands other than what you had? What was the dynamics surrounding these hands. Poker is not one hand in a bubble, stop playing as though it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lonny

How do you know if you suck at poker or if it is just variance, when you are new the game and are not sure if you are playing correctly?

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None of this is variance. You suck, we all pretty much suck, that's why we are here. Get better. You do not ever need to be the best player, just the best player at your table/tables.

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I pretty much lol'd at this. I suck, and I have the stats and blown bankroll to prove it. Here's my advice. I just had this terrible spewy downswing. My estimate is that half or more was spew, half or less was variance. So I could have broken even or possibly made a bit instead of donking off $250 in a week. Now I've got nearly a third of it back, playing solid poker.

Here's my take. Who deducts all the positive variance from their win rate?

I'm assuming any loss I experience at 25nl and lower is due to me sucking at poker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robb

Here's my take. Who deducts all the positive variance from their win rate?

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You would be amazed at how often this is never mentioned.

Quote:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lonny

At the moment I am trying to learn about hand range, but I think it is impossible at this level, I can never guess what they are holding...

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First off, you don't guess what they are holding. It's a group of hands, which hand will call, which hands will fold and which hands will raise. In the JJ hand you have OESD and overpair. This is a pretty strong hand. What hands will call those flop and turn bets? He can see a 89T draw heavy board as well as you. when the 6 falls on the turn, what hands are left that can call bets that called preflop? Lastly, what hand do you beat on the river that can still be around after the betting. I would like you to point out one hand that you beat on the river.

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I can beat MP1 who is holding J9 and this I think is my problem, I have seen so many bad hands beeing played out there that I think that they will all do this with top pair :( I am probaly also going way to far with my top pair hands because I am folding so many hands, that I somehow think that I deserve to win when I am finaly in a hand... Sitting here writing this I can see how stupid it is. So maybee the answer is, that I am pretty good at folding preflop, but not postflop...?

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[

Quote:

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quote="Lonny"]How do you know if you suck at poker or if it is just variance, when you are new the game and are not sure if you are playing correctly?

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None of this is variance. You suck, we all pretty much suck, that's why we are here. Get better. You do not ever need to be the best player, just the best player at your table/tables.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lonny

Do you just fold and only bet the nuts, or how do I do this...?

---

You know this answer. It's not about wining hands, it's about winning money. Look at the best players on this site, their W$SD is around 50%, meaning they win almost as many showdowns as they lose. What does this tell you. Seriously, Answer this.

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I am not sure what this tells me other than they don't win every poteither... But they are probaly better at winning big and loosing small than I am :oops:

Quote:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lonny

My stats are 17/10/3, but am only breaking even... Do I thigthen up even more, or what do I do?

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This is the final piece. Who the hell cares about your stats. You just posted two hands and not a thing was mentioned about the villains. Did you have any thoughts on either of these hands other than what you had? What was the dynamics surrounding these hands. Poker is not one hand in a bubble, stop playing as though it is.

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[/quote]
No I did not have many thoughts on their hands simply because I find it impossible to guess that they will call a preflop raise with A7o or J9o. So as I said earlier, I have kind of given up on the hand range reading because I simply can not find a way to put them on ranges.

So yes, my biggest mistakes is not trying to put them on hands, but how do you do this when they can have pretty much anything? I would very much like to learn this, but how do I do this? Do I just assume that preflop they can have anything no matter the raises, and then wait until the flop and then try to put them on hand ranges there?

Hi Robb, that a good point :)

My problem it that I am trying to play they way I read in the books and here on FTR (that also why I put in my stats, because so far this is the only thing that looks like I have read they should :wink: ), and I am having a hard time finding out what I am doing wrong...

And the only thing that I can come up with at the moment is that I am aggressive enough, but not in the right places...

Do you only learn this by try an error, or how do the rest of you do?

I pretty much think that my preflop game is ok, but that my postflop game sucks. I think I am betting to much with the second best hand and to often folding the best hand...

The first one should be easy to correct, but how do you find out if you are folding the best hand to often?

I am playing much better at thight/passive tables than Loose/passive tables because it is so much easier to read their hands (and trust that their hands is good when they say it is :) , so maybe I should also just starting to trust the loose players when the say the same?)

If the above sounds stupid please feel free to correct me :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lonny

So yes, my biggest mistakes is not trying to put them on hands, but how do you do this when they can have pretty much anything? I would very much like to learn this, but how do I do this? Do I just assume that preflop they can have anything no matter the raises, and then wait until the flop and then try to put them on hand ranges there?

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Just becasue they can have anything when they call preflop, does not mean they will call river bets with anything. Think about what hands will call bets, what hands will raise bets and what hands will fold to bets on every street. If you have AKo and flop Ah3s4h and cbet and get a call, what can he have? If the turn is a Qs, what can he call with? What does he raise with and what folds? These things matter. Do you have PT? Do you have pokerstove?

Yes I have both.

But I am having a hard time using Pokerstove, because I simply do not know what hands to put them on :oops:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lonny

So yes, my biggest mistakes is not trying to put them on hands, but how do you do this when they can have pretty much anything? I would very much like to learn this, but how do I do this? Do I just assume that preflop they can have anything no matter the raises, and then wait until the flop and then try to put them on hand ranges there?

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I will summarize what I've seen people suggest in recent weeks on FTR. You can search FTR posts for "ranges" and "hand reading," and some interesting stuff comes up (but you have to sift a bit to hit gold).

PokerStove - a lot people use this tool. You can type "25%" into the input line for Player1, for example, and the Stove will return a range. There are downfalls to this method as different villains play different groups of hands in different ways. But it's a great start.

PT - do you have PokerTracker? If so, review your sessions like this. Go to the games tab, and "get all" hands (top right row of buttons). Sort them by biggest losses. Then start at the top of the list and hit the "replay" icon. PT will start replaying hands and keep going down the list. Every time you have an action, stop and think about your action. Try to put villain on a range. click the "sigma" icon by villain to see his position stats. Use stove as above. Start with pre, then try to narrow based on betting.

ISF - IowaSkinsFan has several posts on his blog about ranges and reading hands.

Learn/think about the various lines typical villains take with various premium hands. The slow-played flop, c/r or rr turn is often a favorite at donkstakes when villain hits a set. Small flop bets often mean either medium strength hands or a big draw. It's different for different sites/players/tables, but there are patterns.

The basic problem at donkstakes is putting extremely loose players on a hand. If villain is 15/8, we can guess pretty well by the turn what has to be in his range. If villain is 65/25, like you have noticed, he could have pretty much anything pre, so narrowing his range may leave a third of all possible starting hands in that range. Start with the tighter villains first.

The top 10% of hands to raise with pre are all pp's (6%) and AK, AQ, AJ, and KQ (5%). That's obviously 11%, but villain will often not raise small pp's and add in A9s+, KJs, etc. But a TAGG villain is raising those hands. The key postflop is to NOT ADD ANY MORE HANDS. Start with your basic range and narrow it down. If you make a mistake, so be it. But you'll learn from mistakes by trying it. And the very loose players in some ways are easier to play against, so you'll get the hang of that soon enough.

Good luck. We all suck at poker, but at the micros our opponents REALLY suck!!

Oh, and I forgot one of the best - enter a post in someone else's FTR HH thread. Get in early, try putting villain on a range on each street. Start your post with "noobie attempt at hand reading" so the regs see what you're up to. On the turn or wherever the decision action is, state what you think the narrowed range is and why. Then say what you think the ++EV play for hero is, and ask for comments. About half the time you'll get someone to critique your post, and the rest of the time you'll see how you did by comparing it to others.

Try to pick HH's from limits near where you play, since putting villains on ranges differs a bit between 10nl and 200nl.

And post your own HH's, complete with your analysis of the possible range, and ask for a critique. Just remember that FTR is about honesty and "tough love." When you're way off, ppl will let you know. But you'll learn a lot.

lonny? How many tables are you playing?

Hi Robb

Thank you for you suggestion on putting people on ranges, It was something like this I was looking for, a step by step manual :D

I will try this at the end of todays session.

And maybee I will as you suggest try and answer in some one elses thread, but that takes a lot of guts, when you know that you do NOT know what you are talking about :oops: But maybe I will try it with the headline you suggested (noobie) :D

Thank you very much for taking the time to help me on this one :)

I am only playing one table, as long as I can not beat one I see no reason to play more than that :wink:

Hi Robb

I tried to do as you suggested on the first hand in this thread and if i put the hand ranges in pokerstove that I think that they can have, then I am a winner until the river, and I should have folded there.

Does this sound correct?

Board: 9d Ts 8s 6c

Hand range for MP1 (VPIP 85,7%: 8+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,92s+,A7o+)
Hand range for CO (VPIP 55,6%: 88+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J3s+,95s+,A7o+)

Here my 49,8%, so my betting is correct, but when the A comes on the river, my equity falls to 16% and I should have folded instead of calling.

Is the above correct and it is the correct way I did it?

I did call on the river, but the bet was 1/4 of the pot, should I still have folded?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lonny

Does this sound correct?

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Umm...no.

First, we need some idea of what villains' opening ranges are. If you don't have PT and are only playin' 1 table at a time, consider simply keeping track of every time one of the villains' bets or calls preflop for, say, 3 orbits.

If Villain 1 plays 10 of 30 hands, assume he opens the top third of his hands. Try to record whether he limped/called or raised. Those are the ranges we use in PokerStove preflop. The ranges we use in the Stove postflop are the individual hands from the preflop range that make sense to have continued given villain's betting patterns. I will try to find some example threads and post the links here later.

I not only suck but am a newbie, thus qualified to comment.

Ok, one table only and that. When I started I played one table. This became a disaster pretty quickly. I got bored and played lots of hands I should never have played. This will happen. The same thing happens if you play for stakes that are too trivial to you. To fix that you need the discipline to fold every single hand, if it's crap - and you need to remember that it doesn't matter if you're playing for peanuts - all values need to be translated into big blinds and considered only as relative to blinds.

Playing for peanuts was never a problem to me. I grok the principle of value only being relative to big blinds and can evaluate with that perspective. You don't seem to have a problem with that either so that's good. The $ sign is completely unimportant - consider bets only relative to big blinds or full buy-ins.

Boredom was worse for me. I got around it by multi-tabling. Now, a word of caution - if you suck at one table it's likely that you'll suck more at multiple tables as you have even less attention for each individual table and will make more mistakes.

That said, for me it was still a worthwhile exercise. I ended up having to fold an awful lot of mediocre hands that I wanted to play simply because I didn't have the mental capacity to play them. Fact is - that did me a ton of good as I got used to folding utter crap instead of playing them. And once you've got yourself involved in playing 87s, 44 and some other mediocre hand that has hit the flop for dubious value on 3 tables as you hit AA on the fourth table and you really want to maximise the value of the AA and just don't have the mental capacity to deal with 4 hands in different stages at one time - then you ask yourself why you play hands of dubious value in the first place.

Another thing that I learned is not to take your quality hands too seriously. When you hit AA and KK and you bet them PF you'll win the blinds more often than not. That's fine. Another time you may play AA to perfection having all chips in and be sucked out to a 77 hand that made a huge mistake to get into the hand in the first place - yet catching the third 7 on the river. You learn to stop thinking about your quality hands as special once you've seen them 10, 20, or 100 times. You need to get over the idea that they are 'magic' and play solid poker whether you get them or not. Only having seen many hands will enable you to view hands dispassionately. AA is just as likely to be a disappointing set of blinds as a payoff of any value - and many payoffs will be modest as well as people fold to you post-flop as they all missed the flop.

Once I got de-sensitized and got more of a feel for how much I'd really like to know about the opposition I found it great to move back to one table. The correct answer to the boredom question is that if you're not following the actions of the people at your table and taking constant notes then you're spending your time wrong - if you do that, you shouldn't get bored. It's one of many changes that you need to do occasionally to work on different parts of your skills - full ring to 6max to headsup - single table to multiple tables - maybe even full ring to sit'n'go and back. Just, try not to do it aimlessly, but with a purpose. I do single table to have max concentration for every single hand. Then I multi-table to put some more stuff on the backbone and to provide me with a larger chunk of hands that I can analyse to identify my leaks.

Now, let me get around to the subject of reading hands. First an observation. We bet aggressively because it is the most effective way to reduce our villain's range.

Scenario 1: We get AA, bet 4xbb, villain calls in BB and we see a flop with 2c, 5h, 8d. Villain checks to us, we put in a continuation bet and villain raises us to 3 times our bet. What happened? We ran into 88 on a somewhat loose villain. We've shown strength and he's not afraid to bet strongly into us so we can put him relatively firmly on 88 at this point and fold.
Scenario 2: We get AA, limp in, villain checks in BB, same flop, villain checks, we bet and villain raises - what does he have? 22, 55, 88, 25, 28, 58? 99-AA? 34? 67? We've shown weakness pre-flop, so we don't know if his bet is because he's strong or because he thinks he's less weak than we are.

As these two scenarios clearly describe it is our pre-flop raise and how our villain responds to it that begins to tell us something about his hand. Imagine if you will if you go all-in every time you want to play a hand (and it's a new villain who doesn't know you every time) - you'll only be called by AA or KK. The 3-4x bb that is described as standard is intended to greatly cut down on the number of hands you need to consider as you progress through a hand. If you do a 2x bb raise you'll be called by an awful lot of suited connectors, suited one-gappers and pocket pairs who might fold to a 4x bb raise.

It may occur to you that you do want to be called sometimes and therefore consider lowering your standard raise to something less than 4x bb. While this thought isn't necessarily wrong - it is not particularly helpful. What you're trying to do at this point in your poker career is to BEGIN to learn to read hands. And for the purposes of beginning to learn to read hands a NARROW range of hands that see the flop is not a bad place to start. Therefore, keep up the healthy pre-flop raises.

In the beginning I mentioned the value of bets as being separate from the $ value. At the stakes you play, this is unfortunately not always the case for our villains. You'll see people calling with crap because it's only 8 cents and the money isn't important to them. If you're up against a villain like that you just have to wait until you hold something solid. But most people will pay at least a minimum amount of attention to what they're holding and whether they're hitting the flop or not, and then it makes sense to pay attention to their betting/calling patterns and try to determine based on those what they have.

Ok, JJ hand, let me see what I think.
You're UTG and you raise. This communicates a strong hand (as you should play half the hands from UTG than you should from the button) so they should assume you have QJs+, KQ+, KJs+, AJ, 99+ as an example.
They think you have that, and yet MP1 and CO call. They know they'll have position on you which widens their range a bit. They may also consider you aggressive and likely to bet aggressively post-flop which means any made hand they end up with has higher value because they'll be paid off better on it (implied odds). Personally, I wouldn't call with many hands here, but judging by the hands they did play these guys are more loose than me. So with the benefit of hindsight let's call their range any suited ace, any pocket pair, high connectors or one-gappers, suited or not.
(PokerStove notation): 22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,87s,76s,ATo+,KTo+ ,QTo+,J9o+,T8o+,98o,87o

Flop comes and PokerStove says: JcJs 50.866%, the other two 24.567% each.
You place a pot-sized bet and they both call. There could be an element of "we're playing for peanuts" here so we can't give them full credit for a strong hand, but at the same time we can't really rely on the villain having made a mistake every time. At this time they should have a straight, straight or flush draw with a pair or ace (aces are magical), a straight and flush draw. A low pocket pair should fold, two unpaired overcards should fold. QJ would possibly raise (unless he's slowplaying it for more value). Trips, two pair and higher overpairs (if slowplayed pre-flop) should raise to prevent anyone who is drawing to a straight from completing it - hoping either to get draws to fold or to give them odds that make it -EV to call. So given that they called, 88, 99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, 98, T9, T8 are out of the range. Top pair good kicker or top pair top kicker are questionable and left out of this hand range.
(PokerStove notation): 77,AJs,A7s,QJs,87s,76s,AJo,QJo,87o

Turn comes, and assuming that BOTH hands have the mentioned range PokerStove says: JcJs: 8.975% - each of the other two 45.512%. Realistically we can maybe throw in a lot of made pairs and overcards that should have been folded to tweak it more in your direction, but if they didn't fold weak hands on the flop they should be folding now on the turn.
When the 6c comes on the turn there is only one gap to the straight and noone can stay in the hand without considering whether they can beat a straight. A straight draw may still stay in the hand if it has an overcard to the straight (like the J) in the hope that it'll beat the potential lower straight. Or the range considerations of the other people in the hand may have excluded any hand with a 7 (except 77) from having called the pre-flop bet, effectively ruling out the straight as a potential made hand at this point. (This would be mistaken, obviously, as 77 is most likely in our villain's range - though it might not be in mine)
Those that SHOULD have folded on the flop and didn't - should have folded now - PokerStove range same as on flop imo.

Given the above range PokerStove gives JcJs 0% chance to win on the river.
When the A comes on the river you are right to be cautious and check. It is not uncommon for people to be married to an AQ or AJ hand and just not being able to put it down even if they really should have at this time. A hand with a 7 is possible (such as the 77, or the A7s that someone held which is still a hopeful straight-draw with an A that can pair on the turn or river that someone might call a pot-sized bet with on the flop). People's willingness to stay in the hand given healthy betting should cause some pause. When people start betting on the river you need to ask yourself the question that has been asked here by others.

Of the hands listed in PokerStove notation on the flop there is exactly ZERO hands that you beat. Hindsight is 20-20 obviously, so you might want to argue that some top pair, top kicker hands should be included but when you're up against two villains you have to assume that at least one of them has one of the listed hands. Both, if they don't suck.

Comments:

AJ, A7, 77, QJ - all of these would have been happy to be calling you, and would have beat you at this point.
67, 78 - these hands would have you beat. Dubious pre-flop calls, except perhaps if suited - still a loose play if so, 97s would be too far fetched.

While one of your villains did play J9o and you would have beaten that on the river if it was the only hand you were up against, it is weak enough that I'm pretty sure he played the hand wrong. If you assumed that hand in his range you'd be more likely to be wrong and cause yourself to make stupid decisions.
AA, KK, QQ? Not really - these would have re-raised you PF so they are out of our villain's range. Even if they slow-played them PF I wouldn't be surprised for them to be played same as the trips - as in raise on the flop - never call.
TT, 99, 88, T9, T8, 98 - these should have been raised on the flop to avoid a drawing hand from completing (even if T9, T8 or 98 were both spades). They'd still have you beat though.
AK, AQ, AT, A9, A8 would have you beat, but should have been folded on flop or turn.
KQ, KJ, JT, QT, KT are the only hands in the range of possible villain hands come the flop that you could beat. And I think they should all have folded on the turn (along with J9), if not the flop.

Comment on the PokerStove result - let's assume for a second that the turn came 3c instead of 6c so it wouldn't help the people drawing to a straight. For the sake of simplicity reducing it to one villain. Consider this:
Flop comes, your hand is JcJs and the opponent range is 22+,A2s+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T8s+,98s,87s,76s,ATo+,KTo+ ,QTo+,J9o+,T8o+,98o,87o. Your equity is 69.582%, the villain's equity is 30.418%. You make a pot sized bet, it is called and the turn comes 3c.
Your hand is still JcJs, but because the villain CALLED instead of folding or raising his range is now 77,AJs,A7s,QJs,87s,76s,AJo,QJo,87o. Your equity is 61.039% and villain's equity is now 38.961%.

Useless card, how can your equity be any worse? Surely it'd have to be better as there is now only one card that someone can outdraw you on instead of two? Wrong.

Even though the turn helped absolutely noone the knowledge that the villain didn't fold eliminates a lot of hands that you beat from his range - the knowledge that he didn't re-raise eliminates a lot of hands that beat you regardless from his range.

Now - congratulations to anyone who made it to the end, and I hope I made at least a little bit of sense. I'm a newbie as said, but I think I've gotten around to a good portion of the thought processes involved in beginner level hand reading in this post. Feel free to shoot holes in what I said where I don't make sense.

Lonny, villains 8/3/25 over 40 hands. Here's the hand:

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($20.32)
Hero ($12.90)
BTN ($3.89)
SB ($19.33)
BB ($14.45)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 5 players) Hero is CO :5d: :ac:
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.4, BTN raises to $0.8, 2 folds, Hero ??

Put villains on a precise range - list everything he could have, and narrow it based on his 3bet in position.

Here's another one, Lonny, villain is 63/22/2.7 over 30 hands

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($6.72)
Hero ($12.00)
BTN ($18.75)
SB ($4.08)
BB ($26.53)
[Hero posted $0.1]

Pre-flop: ($0.25, 5 players) Hero is CO :td: :kh:
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.4, BTN calls $0.4, 2 folds

Flop: :4h: :8h: :8s: ($1.05, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: :ad: ($1.05, 2 players)
Hero ??

Same exercise

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lonny

My stats are 17/10/3, but am only breaking even... Do I thigthen up even more, or what do I do?

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Do not worry about your stats, this ain't baseball
Play well and everything will be alright

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lonny

I am trying to learn about hand range,, I can never guess what they are holding...

My stats are 17/10/3, but am only breaking even... Do I thigthen up even more, or what do I do?

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don't guess

you're breaking even. That's a good start. Read all the stickies in beginner and full ring forums. Comment on posted hand histories, post hands yourself with explanation of play. That and playing more hands will make you a better player.

As for the two hands you posted.
Hand 1 fine, until river. Fold river.
Hand 2, check fold this flop as often as c-betting. Turn completed two draws. I expect to see AT here a lot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lonny

And maybee I will as you suggest try and answer in some one elses thread, but that takes a lot of guts, when you know that you do NOT know what you are talking about

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when I joined FTR i was playing LIMIT, and micro at that. And posting in every thread. And posting a bunch of hands. And loads of people (if I start to list names, I'll inevitably leave some out) took the time to reply, and point out the errors in my thinking . And I owe them a lot. And now the same thing is happening here. No need to be scared, we all suck. And everyone here seems interested in helping everyone else get better. Except that I want to encourage d0zer to push atc from the button to steal blinds - and then I want to sit to his left.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erpel

I grok the principle of value

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stop reading old heinlein

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Erpel

We bet aggressively because it is the most effective way to reduce our villain's range. and to get money in the pot and to take the initiative

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nice

Lololololol.
Robb ur such a teacher. I need to work on my ranges too so this should be a good thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wesrman

Lololololol.
Robb ur such a teacher. I need to work on my ranges too so this should be a good thread.

---

We'll see if anyone takes me up on the ranges. I was playing pretty LAGG from the cutoff in both hands, so I may get flamed for poor play. But the point is that I read both hands correctly. The second hand becomes interesting when the Ace hits. DUCY?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wesrman

Lololololol.
Robb ur such a teacher. I need to work on my ranges too so this should be a good thread.

---

We'll see if anyone takes me up on the ranges. I was playing pretty LAGG from the cutoff in both hands, so I may get flamed for poor play. But the point is that I read both hands correctly. The second hand becomes interesting when the Ace hits. DUCY?

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Meh not really. Is it because u are gonna rep the ace, but it also makes up a lot of his calling range??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wesrman

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wesrman

Lololololol.
Robb ur such a teacher. I need to work on my ranges too so this should be a good thread.

---

We'll see if anyone takes me up on the ranges. I was playing pretty LAGG from the cutoff in both hands, so I may get flamed for poor play. But the point is that I read both hands correctly. The second hand becomes interesting when the Ace hits. DUCY?

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Meh not really. Is it because u are gonna rep the ace, but it also makes up a lot of his calling range??

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Well, what's his calling range percentage-wise, 40%? 50%? He wasn't limp folding much. And Aces only make up 12.5% of all Holdem starting hands. So it's actually not very likely he has an Ace. But Hero's line has AJ+ written all over it. Also, villains this loose LOVE to play suited cards, almost any two of them. And the flush doesn't get there on the turn. He could have 8x or Ace rag, but that's not all that likely.

Imo, Hero should 2 barrel here every time and expect to be ahead a lot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Robb

Lonny, villains 8/3/25 over 40 hands. Here's the hand:

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($20.32)
Hero ($12.90)
BTN ($3.89)
SB ($19.33)
BB ($14.45)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 5 players) Hero is CO :5d: :ac:
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.4, BTN raises to $0.8, 2 folds, Hero ??

Put villains on a precise range - list everything he could have, and narrow it based on his 3bet in position.

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Ok ill do it, even though im terrible at it.
8% is like 22+,AQ+ with a few possble possible changes. Say AJ instead of 22, 33 and 44. This will be wider on the button if he plays positionally sound. But he only raises 3% so im thinking his 3 bet range is super tight, even on the button. AA, KK, QQ,JJ, AK maybe AQ. Depends how good he is and how much he opens up and takes advantage of position. Most players at 10NL dont play very positional, and with your TAGG image its doubtfull that he has anything but the goods. Besides i rarely see people 3 bet light at 5 and 10NL. How far off am i here?? and what am i not taking into consideration??
Thanks Robb...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wesrman

Ok ill do it, even though im terrible at it.
8% is like 22+,AQ+ with a few possble possible changes. Say AJ instead of 22, 33 and 44. This will be wider on the button if he plays positionally sound. But he only raises 3% so im thinking his 3 bet range is super tight, even on the button. AA, KK, QQ,JJ, AK maybe AQ. Depends how good he is and how much he opens up and takes advantage of position. Most players at 10NL dont play very positional, and with your TAGG image its doubtfull that he has anything but the goods. Besides i rarely see people 3 bet light at 5 and 10NL. How far off am i here?? and what am i not taking into consideration??
Thanks Robb...

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Analysis is perfect, except to note that with a guy this tight to Hero's left, Hero is basically the button twice per round. I don't normally open A5o from the cutoff, even in 6max, but it's sound here since 95% of the time (approx.) villain will fold on the button to our raise.

And I folded the heck out of this hand as soon as the blinds got done!!

I was thinking that with stats like 8/3/25 you couldn't automatically infer what he would call a 3-bet with, but I could do a few assumptions. If he limps or otherwise pays for 8% of all possible hands, raises 3% of all possible hands - he'll probably call a 3-bet on LESS than 3% of possible hands. Maybe not that much less as his range is already tight enough that he might only PFR hands that he's willing to 3-bet or call 3-bets with. His position is advantageous. His aggression factor is high and his stack short, which could indicate that he only wants to play nuts or near-nuts PF and is looking to play for stacks and double up every time he plays a hand. I would put him on AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQs or better and fold quickly.

I was playing with PokerStove yesterday analyzing these hands but wanted to give Lonny a chance to jump in before I posted anything - and I don't remember what I concluded with the other hand, but I remember some of the specifics.

His PFR is 22 - presumably he would 3-bet 5-10% of hands - I'll just arbitrarily decide that he'll 3-bet 7% of hands.
He has position. His normal vpip is 63. For this specific hand I widen his range and decide that it's 75% due to position.
I plot 75% into PokerStove.
I plot 7% into PokerStove.
I remove from the 75% starting range every hand that also appears in the 7% starting range - he would not have called with those hands but re-raised.
On the flop he checks. There is a flush draw on the board, so he would have bet any flush draw, two pairs, over pair or trips to prevent the drawing hand from getting a free card. I go back into my range in PokerStove and remove all hands with a 4 or 8 in it (except 44, 84, 88), and any over pairs left (if any), and any suited hand with 2 hearts.

At this point I think many aces are still in his range. There were a lot to begin with, and I don't think any of my steps above have actually removed any aces (except AK, AQ, A8, A4). But, there are also an awful lot of other hands in there besides Ax, and Ax is a relatively small portion of his range.

On the turn I seem to recall the equity of the Hero's hand given the determined range is somewhere in the area of 70%. As Hero in this situation I would bet - maybe $0.8 or so, representing either the ace of the flush draw. Only hands that would beat me would re-raise, so I would fold to any re-raise. Only hands that would beat me would call, so if I got a call I would check/fold the river.

you can't get them to fold gut shots at this level so how do you expect you will get them to fold an oesd. Also it is easy to say you should have folded the river but when we have multiple callers on a drawy board and the flop or turn completes drawsand they start fireing please conceiter the fact that they just hit. At these levels you aint gonna see many floaters. Oh and i am talking about the first hand in this post.