Playing AA pre-flop and when you miss the flop

Hi all,

I'm a newbie trying to work out how to play this silly game, and I've been told that one of the best ways is to post some hands on here and get feedback from all you poker gurus out there.

I've lurked around here for a while and read a few of the articles, and started playing 2NL on PS with $50 about a month ago, trying to grind my way up to 5NL and beyond. I have around 1.5K hands under my belt so far - not much I know, but I don't have time to play as often as I would like and I am way too inexperienced to multi-table regularly.

Anyway, here is a hand I played recently:

PokerStars Game #15851323934:
Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2008/03/09 - 09:04:27 (ET)
Seat 1: UTG ($5.08 in chips)
Seat 2: UTG+1 ($2.19 in chips)
Seat 3: MP1 ($4.95 in chips)
Seat 4: MP2 ($0.97 in chips)
Seat 5: CO ($12.42 in chips)
Seat 7: Button ($4.94 in chips)
Seat 8: SB ($1.12 in chips)
Seat 9: Hero ($5.16 in chips)

*** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Hero [As Ac]
UTG: folds
UTG+1: calls $0.02
MP1: calls $0.02
MP2: folds
CO: calls $0.02
Button: calls $0.02
SB: folds
Hero: raises $0.10 to $0.12
UTG+1: calls $0.10
MP1: folds
CO: calls $0.10
Button: calls $0.10

*** FLOP *** [4c 5h 7h]
Hero: bets $0.40
UTG+1: calls $0.40
CO: folds
Button: calls $0.40

*** TURN *** [4c 5h 7h] [6c]
Hero: bets $1.66
UTG+1: calls $1.66
Button: raises $2.76 to $4.42 and is all-in
Hero: calls $2.76
UTG+1: calls $0.01 and is all-in

*** RIVER *** [4c 5h 7h 6c] [5d]

*** SHOW DOWN ***
Hero: shows [As Ac] (two pair, Aces and Fives)
Button: shows [Ah 8h] (a straight, Four to Eight)
Button collected $5.20 from side pot
UTG+1: mucks hand
Button collected $6.42 from main pot

Ignoring the fact that I was stupid to call the Button's all in raise on the turn with four cards to a straight on the board, did I play it badly up to that point? My goal was to "thin the field" pre-flop and then once I missed the flop, I thought I should try and take it down as quickly as I could without going to showdown. Were my bet sizes wrong?

FWIW, CO was probably even more of a beginner than me, and Button and UTG+1 were both loose-passive calling station types that you often see at 2NL - standard play for both seemed to be call pre-flop and then either check/call or fold post-flop depending on whether they hit something or not.

Thanks in advance for your help!

Not too bad. First, welcome to FTR. Glad you're here posting some hands.

Preflop, I would like to see a 4xBB raise + 1BB/limper. So 8 cents for an open raise + 8 more cents for the 4 limpers. Pot-sized bet on the flop is good. At micros, with what is likely the best hand, you might overbet the pot on the flop to deny the pot odds and thin the field a bit more. Say, a $0.60 raise.

Yes, the turn sucks out loud, 'cuz most of the straight draws just came in, and the flush draws are still lurking. Firing a bet at the turn isn't too bad, imo, but you've gotta fold to the shove on a board this draw-heavy, imo.

All-in-all it wasn't too poorly played - just business as usual at the micros.

yeah with taht many people in the hand on the turn it is pretty fair to assume that someone will have a straigh/2p/set enough so i think you can just c/f there. otherwise i like that you are raising and betting.

Thanks guys.

So basically you think I was doing the right thing by betting out, but I was just not betting enough.

With four limpers it should have been more like 8xBB ($0.16) pre-flop.

On the flop there were straight and flush draws, even a potential made straight, although I guessed that it was unlikely that anyone with just 36 or 68 would've called my pre-flop raise. So with four of us left, and my AA completely missing a draw-heavy flop, I should've tried to take it down pronto by betting big to deny any reasonable pot odds, yes? In this case, a more than pot size bet might have taken the pot right there.

My AA was clearly in trouble on the turn, and I can see that an all in raise made it very obvious that I should have folded. Although I am a beginner I don't think I am usually that bad - could have been a touch of tilt after getting no cards for the previous hour and losing a bit over a buy-in (ie. I've got AA, and I'm going to make these babies pay!) ... oh well, at least I can recognize the mistake!

Here is another one from my collection that is bothering me:

PokerStars Game #15729857180:
Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02) - 2008/03/04 - 05:37:25 (ET)
Table 'Adalberta' 9-max

Seat 1: Hero ($6.32 in chips)
Seat 2: BB ($3.47 in chips)
Seat 3: UTG ($1.79 in chips)
Seat 4: UTG+1 ($2.50 in chips)
Seat 6: MP ($3.30 in chips)
Seat 7: CO ($2.90 in chips)
Seat 9: Button ($2.28 in chips)

*** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Hero [Ad Qd]
UTG: folds
UTG+1: folds
MP: calls $0.02
CO: calls $0.02
Button: calls $0.02
Hero: raises $0.12 to $0.14
BB: folds
MP: calls $0.12
CO: folds
Button: folds

*** FLOP *** [4d 3d Kd]
Hero: bets $0.22
MP: folds
Hero collected $0.34 from pot

Obviously I flopped a monster here, so I was looking to get the pot as big as I could, but my 2/3 pot size bet was too much for the villain. Assuming a standard micro stakes NL table, do you think this was just a matter of bad luck - MP must've missed the flop altogether and I couldn't know that - or in heads up am I better to assume a hand like this will still be the best hand by the river and play it a bit slower to make sure I get some action?

Thanks!

LoL @ Aces missing the flop

1) Is fine up to the turn. I think 12c is fine preflop. These guys play bad enough postflop that if you can narrow it down to one or 2 players and then bet, bet, bet most boards you will be money. Turn is an obvious check/fold with 2 passive players in.

2) I would bet 3/4 pot instead of full pot since you arent really scared of anything. you probably wont get paid unless someone has 2 pair+ though.

1) i would raise to 16 pre because most of the limpers at microstakes (especially 2nl) put money in the pot they are going to pay and see a flop, so charget them. Otherwise its fine. You could make an argument for checking the turn hrere because in a 3 way pot someone is likely to have a set/2 pair/straight here most of the time.

2) this is fine. If you want to play a big pot when you have a monster like this, you have to bet. You have to count on someone having a second best hand that they want to build a pot with though to get paid though. On a 3 flush board its going to be harder to get someone to pay you off unless they have 2 pair or floped a set.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

LoL @ Aces missing the flop

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lol yeah I caught that too

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

LoL @ Aces missing the flop

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classic

Tony don't let these guys get to you, they lol at just about anything.

With that said, the reason they thought it was funny is because the only way for AA to "hit" the flop is for one of the other two aces to show up on the flop. Unfortunately this only happens about 12% of the time, so 88% of the time your Aces will "miss the flop".

Good luck, welcome to FTR and don't let those dorks above get ya down if they pick on your statements.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GatorJH

Tony don't let these guys get to you, they lol at just about anything.

With that said, the reason they thought it was funny is because the only way for AA to "hit" the flop is for one of the other two aces to show up on the flop. Unfortunately this only happens about 12% of the time, so 88% of the time your Aces will "miss the flop".

Good luck, welcome to FTR and don't let those dorks above get ya down if they pick on your statements.

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There's more to it than that. AA is the best 1 pair hand, and 2 pair is the average winning hand in NLH. So AA often holds up to win without needing help from the flop. So while they were poking a bit of fun, there's something to learn here about hand strength at showdown.

Yeah, yeah, its too easy to pick on the newbie ...

Don't worry GatorJH, I can take it. I do understand the point too - AA doesn't need help a lot of the time to win - but I think my question about how to play it unimproved was still valid despite the unfortunate choice of words. Thanks all for your replies (the helpful ones anyway).

While I'm on a roll (!), here's another from about 45 mins ago:

PokerStars Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02)
UTG ($0.98 in chips)
UTG+1 ($1.82 in chips)
MP ($1.89 in chips)
Hero ($5.15 in chips)
Button ($4.98 in chips)
SB ($5.60 in chips)
BB ($5.08 in chips)

*** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Hero [Qh Qc]
UTG: folds
UTG+1: calls $0.02
MP: folds
Hero: raises $0.08 to $0.10
Button: calls $0.10
SB: calls $0.09
BB: folds
UTG+1: folds

*** FLOP *** [6c 3c 2h]
SB: bets $0.02
Hero: raises $0.18 to $0.20
Button: folds
SB: calls $0.18

*** TURN *** [6c 3c 2h] [5d]
SB: bets $0.06
Hero: raises $0.60 to $0.66
SB: calls $0.60

*** RIVER *** [6c 3c 2h 5d] [Tc]
SB: checks
Hero: checks

*** SHOW DOWN ***
SB: shows [3h 4h] (a straight, Deuce to Six)
Hero: mucks hand
SB collected $1.96 from pot

Obviously there's a potential straight on the flop, but I thought it unlikely that anyone would have called my pre-flop raise OOP with 45 (or is that giving people too much credit??). Anyway, when the guy bet then called my raise post-flop I thought likely TPTK / TPGK, or maybe straight draw with A4 or K5 or something like that.

Turn was a scary card. Obviously if I was right about the straight draw above I was in trouble. But I thought he's only bet 6c into a pot of 70c or so, maybe he doesn't have the straight, and I didn't want to lay it down with pot odds of about 12:1. But there were still some very scary cards out there, so I thought I'd take one more decent shot at taking it right there. Mistake? Should I have called or folded here?

When he called that, I thought OK, I'm gone, and shut down.

This guy is a calling station, which might be why I didn't credit him with a great hand. In hindsight I guess the fact he was betting into me on the flop and the turn, even such small bets, should've been a big red flag.

Sorry if these are very obvious - but if I'm not sure I'm gonna ask.

Man, you know the problem with doing this? You out yourself as a fish - I'm gonna have every half-decent micro NL player on this board heading on down to PS to see if they can find me soon!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TonyB73

Turn was a scary card. Obviously if I was right about the straight draw above I was in trouble. But I thought he's only bet 6c into a pot of 70c or so, maybe he doesn't have the straight, and I didn't want to lay it down with pot odds of about 12:1. But there were still some very scary cards out there, so I thought I'd take one more decent shot at taking it right there. Mistake? Should I have called or folded here?

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Preflop is standard. On the flop, with two villains, I'm betting the pot here. My hand is vulnerable, so I need to get my money in now while I'm still likely to be ahead. That makes the draws pay heavy to chase.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TonyB73

When he called that, I thought OK, I'm gone, and shut down.

This guy is a calling station, which might be why I didn't credit him with a great hand. In hindsight I guess the fact he was betting into me on the flop and the turn, even such small bets, should've been a big red flag.

Sorry if these are very obvious - but if I'm not sure I'm gonna ask.

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A lot of fish/stations at the micros play any Ace, so they can connect with this flop. But baby straights are usually gutshot draws - it's unlikely even at donkstakes that they're in here with a 4 but not an ace.

This isn't obvious. This is a place where you know the villains have some chance of showing down the straight. But it's not likely. More likely is a small pair + straight draw, a small pair that hit the set, or a medium pair. Also, he might be in with two over cards like ATs and chasing the club flush draw. It's still not incredibly likely you're behind, so a bet is fine on the turn.

River is standard.

Well played in general - you're bet-sizing is getting better. You're ahead against a good bit of the stuff he might show down. Checking behind on the river is smart. You have show down value, so a river bet would basically turn a decent hand into a bluff.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TonyB73

Man, you know the problem with doing this? You out yourself as a fish - I'm gonna have every half-decent micro NL player on this board heading on down to PS to see if they can find me soon!

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This made LoL. We don't need to stalk FTR noobies to find fish. And if you're making progress like this in just a few days, you won't be a fish for long. You're doing well. Just keep working on your game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robb

And if you're making progress like this in just a few days, you won't be a fish for long. You're doing well. Just keep working on your game.

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Agreed. Keep reviewing (and posting) hands and you will find your play improving pretty quickly.

I know what you mean about 34s, it seems to be the new ace rag.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

LoL @ Aces missing the flop

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lol
:D