3bet pot bluff conundrum

Which is better?

Villain is a 27/22/4.1 regular who 3bets 10% of the time (which is a lot). We've played higher together when I was taking shots and he knows I'm a reg in these games. He just sat down a few hands ago.

My apologies for the hand histories being a bit messed up.


Hand 1)
$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
$200 effective.

Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is MP :qs: :as:
1 fold, Hero raises to $7, 2 folds, RubberDuk raises to $25, 1 fold, Hero calls $19

Flop: :8h: :6c: :2d: ($54, 2 players)
RubberDuk bets $41, Hero raises to $174,

Hand 2)
$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
$200 effective.

Pre-flop: ($0, 6 players) Hero is MP :qs: :as:
1 fold, Hero raises to $7, 2 folds, RubberDuk raises to $25, 1 fold, Hero calls $19

Flop: :8h: :6c: :2d: ($54, 2 players)
RubberDuk bets $41, Hero raises to $82 planning to fold to a shove,

What if the flop was :8c::6c::5h:?
What if the stacks were 170bb?

Ok Id say

for 100bbs Allin is better than raise/fold. You miss the chance of repping AA/KK but I think the times you get him to fold something like TT/AK that he might have shoved himself with make up for that.

for 170bbs $82 and fold to a shove looks a lot better.

The more drawy the board gets, the more likely he is to shove lower PPs and A :club: K :club: rather than fold them so I think raise/fold gets quite a bit worse when the flop is 2 suited.

Question: Would you prefer to 4bet this out of position?

Bump one time.

Anyone else care to comment?

Both real hands are fine, if the flop is 865 or your 170 deep definetely no.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

if the flop is 865

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because he puts us on a draw and calls/shoves his 8x or w/e right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

or your 170 deep definetely no.

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wrt the second hand, because it makes him want to rebluff right? What does he do with TT here 170 deep and we minraise. Seems like a shitty spot to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelion

Ok Id say

for 100bbs Allin is better than raise/fold. You miss the chance of repping AA/KK but I think the times you get him to fold something like TT/AK that he might have shoved himself with make up for that.

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Shoving reps AA/KK perfectly fine. FWIW I'm sure I could shove jacks plus on this flop and it's be fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelion

for 170bbs $82 and fold to a shove looks a lot better.

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My fear is that if I minraise with these stacks then things are pretty much set up perfectly for him to rebluff-3bet-shove.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelion

The more drawy the board gets, the more likely he is to shove lower PPs and A :club: K :club: rather than fold them so I think raise/fold gets quite a bit worse when the flop is 2 suited.

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Agreed. So should I go through with my shove or just fold to his cbet?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelion

Question: Would you prefer to 4bet this out of position?

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Yes. 4bet/call and 4bet fold are both legit options OOP. They are IP also but when we're IP calling and shoving lots of flops becomse an attractive option too.