Downswings: What are you really upset about?

I lost 3.3k today 4 tabling 600NL for about 1800 hands.

I'm not upset about it though.

In the past i would have been upset. If i was 9 tabling today i might have been upset too. I think we all know in the back of our minds what makes us so angry and upset when we lose some money. I'm just going to put it out there:

1) We subconsciously think we lost because we're not that good at poker.
2) We subconsciously feel we played badly.
3) We don't know whether or not we played badly and it's frustrating (and i think heavy multi-tabling can fuel this a bit)

Today there was none of that. I played well. I made a couple of mistakes but i played some good fucking poker. And i'm not upset about the money i lost, i'm not frustrated, and it's because none of the above points are true for me.

PS if you heavily multi-table a lot, i suggest trying 4 tabling, or even 2 tabling for a bit and see how you like it. I don't think i've 4 tabled since fucking JULY, and it's long overdue. Even if you know you're profit is going to be better multitabling, i think it is a helpful exercise to improve. (Thanks kingofcards for pointing this out in his interview)



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the more i play and the more i lose i become more convinced that i suck at poker, more than i though i already knew i suck, if that makes sense.

every time i go through a big downswing of suck, i get into this really bad funk where i lose all confidence, and am sure i suck, then after sulking for a while i eventually go through an upswing. but i build a certain resistance to it, and through about 50k hands of breaking even i felt fine about it, but now it is closer to 80k hands of being down 10 bi. at this point i am just so flustered, and am completely convinced that i am not, and will never be a winning player.

I'm down 20 buyins and breakeven over the last the last 150k hands. I'm probably angry because I can't win a race or stop getting set over setted.

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Originally Posted by Deanglow

I'm down 20 buyins and breakeven over the last the last 150k hands. I'm probably angry because I can't win a race or stop getting set over setted.

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wow thats heavy. i'm definitely not happy that you are running bad, but it gives me some comfort when players that are better then me are also doing poorly.

for me its more like, i cant ever get anyone to fold TP to me, and every time i flop the nuts they fold.

i ve posted some pretty awesome graphs so far this year

i get angry at playing badly and getting a beat put on me or getting coolered really doesn't bug me normally. I usuallyforget it, laugh a bit, then think of the $ Sklansky owes when reviewing my session.

what tilts me is stagnating at lowstakes for way too many hands and running like shit when moving up and the results are very important to the immediate future of my poker playing

so I'd say that most of the frustration that comes from running bad is related to bankroll concerns and impatience with my place in the poker pecking order. after a crushing downswing, the biggest feeling is impatience at getting back to where i think I should be, both in terms of BR cushion and in terms of stakes I'm playing.

it s kind of like feeling that "getting unstuck" mentality that can be dangerous during a bad session seep into your attitude about poker in general. also feeling like you're entitled to more than you're getting... all pretty shitty things to be feeling over a long period.

Completely agree with OP

I think massive multi tabling tilts me m ore than anything else. I took part in a rake race in Jan playing 24/7 devided by 3 friends in a 24h race. I had to play 10 tables of 600nl+ 6max for 8 hours straight which is clearly too much for my slow brain:P. I was even running quite good (about +$4k in like 7000 hands). What tilted me was the massive amounts of mistakes I was making and I knew it. There was nothing I could do about it, my brain is simply too slow and its so frustrating giving away money because you don't have the fkn time to think. I've been doing more and more 4 tabling lately and trying to put more thought into my game. It makes poker more fun IMO. I especially recommend this when taking shots, even if only one of your tables is at higher stakes than you're used to.

Edit: I am fully aware that thid doesn't apply to everyone. Some people just have sick ability to multitask, others think they have and play some shitty poker an a massive amount of tables.

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

what tilts me is stagnating at lowstakes for way too many hands and running like shit when moving up and the results are very important to the immediate future of my poker playing

so I'd say that most of the frustration that comes from running bad is related to bankroll concerns and impatience with my place in the poker pecking order. after a crushing downswing, the biggest feeling is impatience at getting back to where i think I should be, both in terms of BR cushion and in terms of stakes I'm playing.

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word, that's exactly how I feel

not considering my shot and loss of 15k at 1knl over the course of 3k hands in december, i had a 40k month. Since then, a lot of what has happened to me has been extremely similar to what deanglow described. I am down 20k between january and february ... definitely what massimo is saying doesnt tilt me. i used to swing 5k+ or - a day and not flinch about it. what does tilt me is the impatience factor that genitrue wrote about. this is evidenced by my first and so far only blog post on FTR. Jesus christ my mindset was so screwed when i wrote that post, and in turn made the post absolutely horrid. what's worse is, i actually thoguht what i was writing at the time was good. finally through a session when i was explaining my thought process to a student did something actually click in my brain and i started to think more congruently w/ a winning mindset.

thats something probly not too many people acknowledge, is how their internal mindset changes when they run bad over an elongated period of time. and over the months of jan and feb, i played almost twice as many hands as deanglow... just somethign u guys might want to think about.

:( maybe i was wrong, i thought this applied to everyone.

I'm glad that someone agrees with me though, all is not lost.

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i played almost twice as many hands as deanglow

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I've played 200k+ hands so far this year.

What pisses me off is when after my sessions I fire up pokerEV and look at all my big losing hands. I end up saying "cooler cooler cooler suckout cooler." It just sucks to be down 4k in KK v AA/AA v KK matches and being set over setted 10 times and only returning the favor once.

I don't play perfect by any means and I'm nowhere near the best regular at my current stakes. But I'd just like to run normal/good for a month. I played a pretty flawless game of 12 tables of 2/4 6max last night and made $200 and -$1000 in allin EV.

I know that will even out eventually, but variance is a bitch.

at least you have your bankroll management and arent stuck working your way back up from micro stakes lol : [

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Originally Posted by Deanglow

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i played almost twice as many hands as deanglow

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I've played 200k+ hands so far this year.

What pisses me off is when after my sessions I fire up pokerEV and look at all my big losing hands. I end up saying "cooler cooler cooler suckout cooler." It just sucks to be down 4k in KK v AA/AA v KK matches and being set over setted 10 times and only returning the favor once.

I don't play perfect by any means and I'm nowhere near the best regular at my current stakes. But I'd just like to run normal/good for a month. I played a pretty flawless game of 12 tables of 2/4 6max last night and made $200 and -$1000 in allin EV.

I know that will even out eventually, but variance is a bitch.

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this is very similar to how i feel. i mean i feel like i run bad/ play bad way more than i play good/run good. but my graph still goes slightly up over time.

I haven't run bad recently because I haven't played enough, but what makes me angry more than anything during those runs is uncontrollable luck. This is a recurring theme of anything competitive I engage in. I prefer pure skill games without elements of randomness, because I feel like if I work hard enough I can create the skill to beat the game. But poker isn't like that (which is what keeps the bad players coming back and donating, as we all know). When I'm running breakeven or better I am fine with this, logically; I will even make smart remarks to players who complain about their bad luck, or sum up their dilemma with a simple, "That's poker." But when I'm running bad - man, does it bother me. The worst I remember is a little over a year ago when I had a run where I was making almost no sets with my pairs (don't remember the exact stats, but it was under 5% on a not-insignificant sample size), and when I did make a set it lost almost every time. One period of a couple weeks, I had only two sets, and they were both beat by a bigger one. That was the kind of thing that happens occasionally and makes me just want to stop playing altogether. And of course if I get hit by too much bad luck, I'll tilt and add in some losses that I didn't need.

I think after taking some time off I am better equipped to deal with variance. But I haven't been put to the test yet, so who knows.

To give an example: I played 1000 hands this afternoon and felt I played very well. Finished down $100 or so though. Here are my biggest losers:

32/17 drooler who donked every flop. Previous hand I raised to the exact same amount with KK on a dry flop. He had Q7s

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($813.10)
Button ($68)
SB ($618.75)
BB ($601.05)
UTG ($608.90)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to $12, 1 fold, SB calls $10, 1 fold.

Flop: ($28) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets $24, Hero raises to $96, SB raises to $168, Hero raises to $240, SB raises to $750.75, Hero calls $366.75.

Turn: ($1385.50) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)

River: ($1385.50) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)

Final Pot: $1385.50

Against a very good regular. He flopped the nut straight.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG ($163.60)
Hero ($422.50)
Button ($471.05)
SB ($1348.30)
BB ($400)

Preflop: Hero is MP with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/3h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/3s.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises to $12, Button calls $12, 1 fold, BB calls $8.

Flop: ($38) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/3c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/5s.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/7c.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $32, Button folds, BB raises to $111, Hero raises to $410.5, BB calls $277 (All-In).

Turn: ($814) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/8c.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($814) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qh.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $814

Against a weak regular. Big call station. He had A9s and would easily call this bet with 2nd pair or a small pocket.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Hero ($422)
SB ($568.65)
BB ($377.50)
UTG ($827)
MP ($404)

Preflop: Hero is Button with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/jh.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/9s.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to $12, 1 fold, BB calls $8.

Flop: ($26) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/9c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/7h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/4d.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $20, BB calls $20.

Turn: ($66) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/2s.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $52, BB calls $52.

River: ($170) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/4h.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $112, BB calls $112.

Final Pot: $394

Another loose drooler. He had 8h4h.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

CO ($400)
Hero ($394)
SB ($152.90)
BB ($494.40)
UTG ($697.90)
MP ($667.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/tc.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/jc.gif.
3 folds, Hero raises to $12, SB calls $10, 1 fold.

Flop: ($28) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/6h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/jd.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/2h.gif (2 players)
SB bets $12, Hero raises to $48, SB raises to $104, Hero raises to $160, SB calls $36.90 (All-In).

Turn: ($309.80) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/4d.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($309.80) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/8c.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $309.80

This is not a bad beat post. I'm just giving you all a rundown of my two weeks or so.

yeah they are bad beat posts, lol ... i got blamed for posting a bunch of bad beat posts last week when i was trying to find the ones that seemed like there might be an actual decision to be made .. the others were like just ridiculous coolers like a lot of these, obv.

i think im coming out of my downswing (though mine had a lot of mental issues surrounding it) but im not getting the terrible beats like i had been for the last 2 months. it'll end eventually man, just gotta remember that things arent as bad as they seem, try to see something positive in all this, and understand that it's the nature of the game to go through cycles like this.