What is the best metric to evaluate your own play?

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02-27-2008, 02:10 AM
trump

What is the best metric to evaluate your own play?

Every time I have a bad day I start second guessing my whole style of play. It doesn't help that I recently got Poker Tracker and it classifies me as loose-aggressive. I always thought I was a pretty tight player, so I don't get what it uses to classify me as loose, but it definitely surprised me.

Is Poker Tracker a fair evaluation of ones play? Should I be looking to adjust my style of play?.... What does Poker Tracker even use to decide how tight or loose I am?

What about other metrics? I use a session logging spreadsheet that tracks "Win Rate (BB/hr)" and "Win Rate (BB/100)" ... what are these and why are they important to me?
02-27-2008, 02:33 AM
daven

ok. long term, the only statistic that matters is winrate = how much you are winning. There are many different ways to play winning poker.

Win rate BB/100 on poker tracker refers to the number of poker tracker big bets you win per 100 hands played - a big bet is a carryover limit term and is 2xthe big blind. (/hr is equivalent, but about time rather than # of hands played)

Being categorised as loose or not is usually dependent on one metric, VPIP = % of hands where you Voluntarily put money in pot. The greater this number, the looser you are. Anything above 19 is getting fairly loose. Anywhere from 13-19 can be considered tight, depends who you talk to.

Remember that statistics mean little until you have a big sample size - variance does happen = the chance aspect of poker. I recommend reading the posts linked in the beginners digest post.
Hope this helps.
02-27-2008, 09:32 AM
Robb

Re: What is the best metric to evaluate your own play?

Quote:

Originally Posted by trump

It doesn't help that I recently got Poker Tracker and it classifies me as loose-aggressive. I always thought I was a pretty tight player, so I don't get what it uses to classify me as loose, but it definitely surprised me.

Bit of history, here, PT was developed years ago when most online players were playing limit. It's autorate rules were never updated for NLH. You can download various autorating rules (Excession's on BTP are great for full FR NLH) and import them into PT. I got pissed off though when, as a newbie, Excession's rules autorated me "showdown muppet." LoL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trump

Is Poker Tracker a fair evaluation of ones play? Should I be looking to adjust my style of play?.... What does Poker Tracker even use to decide how tight or loose I am?

Yes, the PT stats after 25k hands or so are a pretty fair indication of your playing style and can be used to find leaks in your game. Here are two guides online that will help you make sense of how to use PT to analyze your game, your leaks and your sessions.

Pokey's 2+2 "How to use PT2" Post .

Excession's PT2 Series. Part I of VIII or something, like a small novel about PokerTracker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trump

What about other metrics? I use a session logging spreadsheet that tracks "Win Rate (BB/hr)" and "Win Rate (BB/100)" ... what are these and why are they important to me?

They shouldn't be until you have 10k hands or more, then they can estimate your win rate, just like it says. It's how I know I earn about $12/hr playing poker (I'm a hobbyist, so that's fine w/ me!!).

Here are some terms, quickly:

* a ptBB is twice the big blind, so at NL10 where blinds are .05/.10, a ptBB is .20 (again, relic from limit days).
* Winrate of 5 ptBB/100 means that, every 100 hands you win $.20 x 5, or $1 every 100 hands.

Poker is such a high variance game that winrates over samples of even 20k hands are suspect. But when you log 10k hands and have a 4 ptBB/100 win rate, you can be pretty sure you're a winning player at that level (maybe 90% sure). The problem is most beginners including me start winning at rates of 1-2 ptBB/100. That margin is so thin they experience lots of losing sessions and downswings. Lately, I'm more in the 7.5+ ptBB/100 win rate range, so nearly every 1k hand session at least breaks even. But I was down 3 buy-ins after 500 hands two nights ago.

Hope this helps - PT is a phenomenal tool. Learn what it is and what it can tell, but no, don't get all wrapped up in it's autorate rules.

Welcome to FTR.
02-27-2008, 11:15 AM
trump

Thanks guys, all extremely helpful information that I will definitely absorb and use.

I play pretty much exclusively in 6-max tables, so from what you've said it makes sense that I'd be classified as a loose player because I should be seeing more hands at a short table. Correct me if I'm wrong.

... but heh, I just downloaded the auto-rate rules T-Rod posted at BTP for 6-max tables and I'm still classified as loose aggressive (I get a picture of a dice instead of Taz though :) ). I don't have any problem tightening up. I would say that tighter play is even my natural inclination - it's been a conscious effort for me to play more hands. I recently played in a casino for the first time and I couldn't get any action because I played so few hands (and I lost everything when I played KQ against Q2, ironically)... so I don't fully trust the notion of tightening up more, I had thought before Poker Tracker that I was too tight, but I'll surely give it a shot and see how it goes.

Of course most importantly I'll get some hands under my belt and see how it goes. To this point I've been a winning player, I just want to me more of a winning player :D ... and make sure that I stay a winning player of course, given the sample size I can't safely claim to be one yet.

I wonder what a good BB/100 is? I think it would be good for self-analysis to have an idea of the averages.

Like:

Novice- = 0 BB/100
Novice = 3 BB/100
Novice+ = 5 BB/100
Intermediate- = 7 BB/100
Intermediate = # BB/100
Intermediate+ = # BB/100
Expert- = # BB/100
Expert = # BB/100
Expert+ = # BB/100

I just put in a few BS numbers, I have no idea what realistic numbers would be, you get the idea. Has anyone ever done something like that?
02-27-2008, 03:57 PM
daven

Quote:

Originally Posted by trump

I just put in a few BS numbers, I have no idea what realistic numbers would be, you get the idea. Has anyone ever done something like that?

Doesn't quite work like that. As you improve you approach the theoretical maximum BB/100 for the limit you are playing - not sure what that is - and/or move up limits. The maximum BB/100 is mostly a factor of the quality of opponents, as you move higher the average player is better. Some of the very best players run between 2BB/100 and 4BB/100, but when you factor in the limits and extent of multi-tabling this works out as loads of money.

See this thread for some discussion
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ain%20winrates
02-27-2008, 04:14 PM
Robb

Quote:

Originally Posted by trump

I wonder what a good BB/100 is?

A positive one :cool:

Quote:

Originally Posted by trump

I think it would be good for self-analysis to have an idea of the averages.

Daven is right. So read ^^^^^^^^

Also, for ideas, you can check people's blogs - a lot of us post our PT screen shots with our various stats and graphs. Mine is linked in my signature. See the FTR "blogs and operations" thread for many, many more.

Two things are true: everyone has a different rate, and the rates are lower as you move up levels.

The reason everyone's win rate is different is because we all play varied styles. Poker rarely has one "perfect" ways to play any group of hands. All sites are different, with different styles working better at different ones. Table selection comes into it. It all really just depends. Daven alluded to multitabling - I play 8 - 10 6max tables at once, and playing too many can erode your winrate / table but increase your total earning rate. So, really, it all just depends.

At the micros (NL25 and below), I think most FTR folks would agree you should be able to get into the 5 ptBB/100 range, and probably should before moving up. My recent winrates have been 7.5+, but I played winning poker for 3 months before seeing it get above 5 for 10k hands.

But there are guys playing NL200 or NL600 who are happy with 2 ptBB/100 winrates. It's obviously more profitable to win at 1/3 the rate if you're playing for 20 times the stakes. But most of the players up there are a lot better, so overall the super-big winrates of 8 or 10 ptBB/100 that you sometimes hear about at the micros aren't gonna happen up there.

Let me just say I'm thrilled with anything 5 ptBB/100 or higher. That's a buyin every 1k hands, which takes me about 75-90 minutes to crank out. If my bankroll is increasing at a BI every hour (including bonuses/rakeback), it's all good where I'm concerned.
02-27-2008, 06:48 PM
trump

Ah, I get you now. BB/100 doesn't correlate with profitability.

I only make something like $2.5 an hour after 1766 hands, but my BB/100 is 14.34.

I take it then to really understand how well or poorly you're playing you have to step back and look at all of the information available. There is no single number that's going to do it.... other than making monies of course :D