AOK 19 hand acid test

Ive just re-read a post about AOK's 19 hand chart and noticed a few varying opinions. Some say great some say not so great some say only good for micro limits. Ive only been playing for a bit over a year now and have dropped about $800. Yes, ouch!. Anyway without the usual sob story (see Begginers circle of death), ive only recently started to be a positive $ player. So here it is - starting with $30 on PS and $50 on Titan i am going to excersise a display of discipline (which i sorley need) by sticking precisely to the said hand chart at NLFR .01/.02 and see what results may ensue. I will be 2 tabling around 2 to 3 hours per night.

So anyway, please comment on what you think of my op and will update after every session with 2 biggest winners and 2 biggest losers for the day.

Here we go...............

Current
Titan $50
PokerStars $30

If you haven't yet, go watch all of Spenda's videos in the FTR video section.

Why two sites? Clearing a bonus or getting rakeback on one of them?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jasons0147

Why two sites? Clearing a bonus or getting rakeback on one of them?

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The idea i have of using both sites is to see what effect it has on players from both sites ie will it work better on one site than the other or will it work equally as well on both. Not really a "control" group but to maybe get a better idea of / if the style play is effective

Ive never played on Titan, but I have played a lot of Poker on Pokerstars. My biggest reason for going there was simply for table selection, they have tons and tons of tables and it makes finding the fish much easier.

Makes me think of maybe transferring it all to PkerStars? Probably the right move hey?

Well that kind of depends on the tables and and fishies at Titan. I just know that I came from a smaller site and started to get recoginzed by the regs, even at the micro limits. It also is nice to play on one site so that you can get the most out of whatever VIP level they have to offer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms

If you haven't yet, go watch all of Spenda's videos in the FTR video section.

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This is good advice.

When I got to winning instead of sucking out loud at poker, I started with a tight opening range inspired by AOK's 19-hand post. But read Renton's stickies in the beginner's section, too. In about 10k hands, I moved from the 19-hand strat to (mostly) Renton's strat, though his recommendations are for FR and I adapted some of it to the 6max game I was playing exclusively at the time.

What I learned playing the 19-hand strat was that being ahead on about 80% of the flops I saw was greatly beneficial to learning how to play postflop. At times I play tighter than 19-hands. Being ahead postflop is a great thing.

I don't think AOK's strat gets you thinking positionally enough, which Renton tried to correct with his post (find all 3 sections here):

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...op-t39184.html
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...-i-t39572.html
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ii-t40404.html

Read every Beginner's Digest sticky this week. Then reread in one month. Those posts helped me go from loser to winner at the micros.

And believe what the veterans say. Site is (almost) irrelevant. At NL2, NL5 and NL10, all the players on all the sites suck. Including me. But I profit from sucking less bad than the rest of them do.

Well not such a great start:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

SB ($3.64)
BB ($0.95)
UTG ($3.36)
MP1 ($4.64)
MP2 ($4.51)
CO ($5.99)
Hero ($3.23)

Preflop: Hero is Button with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/6s.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/6h.gif.
UTG calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02, 1 fold, CO calls $0.02, Hero calls $0.02, SB raises to $0.14, 1 fold, UTG folds, MP1 folds, CO folds, Hero calls $0.12.

Flop: ($0.36) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/3d.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qh.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/7c.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($0.36) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/6c.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.2, SB calls $0.20.

River: ($0.76) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ts.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.6, SB raises to $3.3, Hero calls $2.29 (All-In).

Final Pot: $6.55

Results in white below:
SB has 8d 9d (straight, ten high).
Hero has 6s 6h (three of a kind, sixes).
Outcome: SB wins $6.94.

What would you do? Iplayed this one to the letter untill Villian went allin with what i made out to be the flush.
By the way, villian was 37/3!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

UTG+1 ($5)
MP1 ($4.80)
Hero ($5.06)
MP3 ($4.09)
CO ($1.24)
Button ($5)
SB ($1.11)
BB ($0.40)
UTG ($3)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/td.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ts.gif. UTG+1 posts a blind of $0.02. UTG posts a blind of $0.02.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.02, 1 fold, CO calls $0.02, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.12) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/5h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/th.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/6c.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $0.06, CO folds, SB calls $0.06, BB calls $0.06, UTG calls $0.06, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: ($0.36) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/9h.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.32 (All-In), UTG folds, Hero folds, SB folds.

Final Pot: $0.04

Um, you didn't even raise pre-flop on that last hand!! And I'd be betting at least the pot on that drawy flop with lots of other players still in the hand.

Yah, the 66 hand is standard.

With the tens, you gotta bump it up preflop. Bet that flop harder and call the AI on the turn.

The 66 hand Im probably going to lead out on the flop for full pot after he checks to me and then fold if reraised to, and shutdown on the turn if I get called.

Multiway pots with Pocket pairs never turnout any good. Your goal is to isolate, preflop you should raise to 4x the BB plus 1x for any limpers. As played Im getting my money in here every time.

I read AOK 19 hand thing a while back so I'm not sure if you played correctly according to that. but:

hand 1: No-one having a pop at that flop? At Micro-stakes I'm a firm beleiver in Monkey Check - Monkey Bet. I'd fire out a 1/2 or 3/4 pot bet - then watch him fold. If he calls and you don't improve on the turn slow down.

As played, not alot you can do there. I'd call all day long at $.01/.02

Hand 2: Raise pre, and raise the flop hard.
As played, you've got to be betting at least the pot on the flop. I'd make it more like $.13. Then call the turn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WillburForce

I read AOK 19 hand thing a while back so I'm not sure if you played correctly according to that. but:

hand 1: No-one having a pop at that flop? At Micro-stakes I'm a firm beleiver in Monkey Check - Monkey Bet. I'd fire out a 1/2 or 3/4 pot bet - then watch him fold. If he calls and you don't improve on the turn slow down.

As played, not alot you can do there. I'd call all day long at $.01/.02

Hand 2: Raise pre, and raise the flop hard.
As played, you've got to be betting at least the pot on the flop. I'd make it more like $.13. Then call the turn.

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I agree with all above, especially Willbur's comments. I also happen to think Aokrongly's 19 hands is TOO LOOSE for newbies, and I played tighter than that when I finally learned to beat this game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aokrongly

AJ, KQ, QJ, call preflop if it's unraised. FOLD preflop if it's raised.

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These are autofold for me in EP and most times in MP. I almost never limp with these hands, not even behind a couple limpers. My exceptions are when they're suited, 3+ villains have limped and my reads on the rest of the players to act is that no one's all that likely to raise preflop.

If I'm playing crap like KQ or QJ, it's for a raise in an unraised pot from the cutoff or button. I'm cbetting anything reasonable against a wide range of villains, then shutting down. I want to take down a small pot early with these hands. I do NOT what to show these hands down unless I've hit a straight or better. I want to win (at the latest) on the flop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aokrongly

POCKET PAIRS call raises preflop up to 4xBB Fold to bigger raises. HOWEVER, look at the raiser (and other callers stacks) if they don't have any money then just fold. You want them to have money so IF YOU HIT A SET you will get paid off. If you don't hit a set then be prepared to fold very quickly. If you have an overpair to the board then play it carefully.

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I raise all pp's from all positions in unraised pots, 3.5xBB plus 1BB per limper. At the donk stakes, this accomplishes two things. First, it gets rid of hands like J3s (usually). Second, you still often have 2-4 callers, and your sets still get paid when you hit them.

This isn't exactly beginner stuff, but you can cbet with a med/small pair effectively even with overs, even with aces, even with multiple broadway cards.

I think the problem with AOK's 19-hand guide is that it's too passive. I think we need to play those hands and open-raise any of them we play at donkstakes. That will lead to an opening range profile of something 10/8 which is fine for donkstakes.

Again, play this style for a while but begin adding in concepts like position and cbetting from Renton's guide after a couple thousand hands. Add in just ONE of Renton's additional suggestions at a time, play for 1k hands, then add another.

By the way, keep posting here and getting advice. That will help a ton, too. Please read every post in the Beginner's Digest this week, and reread them all in one month. They're there for a reason.

Biondino's Cut out and keep pointers for micro-limit NL

Read this NOW!!

iPoker is pretty fishy and the traffic increases weekly atm and I believe below 200NL table selection doesn´t matter all that much, but I´d choose another skin. Titan has the worst deals on the iPoker network afaik. NOIQ for instance has a solid cashback program. It won´t be much net, but 30% RB adds up to something like 1.2BB/100.

So not an overly good start. After losing a buyi i fought back to be down $2.49. As said here is a couple of hands from the session. please comment:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($4.29)
UTG ($4.97)
UTG+1 ($6.15)
MP1 ($1.02)
MP2 ($4.43)
MP3 ($7.27)
CO ($3.87)
Hero ($4.83)
SB ($1.98)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
4 folds, MP3 calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.12, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.10.

Flop: ($0.27) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets $0.12, MP3 calls $0.12.

Turn: ($0.51) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets $0.4, MP3 calls $0.40.

River: ($1.31) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets $1, MP3 calls $1.

Final Pot: $3.31

In the next session i will be definately more focused on position as well as sticking to the chart. A little dubious (albeit after one session) about the chart as i feel that i left some money on the tables that i would ve won not playing within the parameters of the chart, but as stated earlier this is also an excercise in discipline for me also.

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/2028/acid1ml2.th.jpg

Analyzing your play is great. Analyzing it every 400 hands is going to drive you apeshit, and send your game spiraling out of control as you change too many things at once.

Think about this. Where is your profit coming from at donkstakes? Answer: you slide slowly negative for 100 hands, fighting the blinds, hoping to score a few small and medium pots with your AK, AQ, AJ and blind steals, but generally losing about 5-10BB per 100. In that 100, you get a pp about 7 times, of which 1 will flop a set. And then you try to felt it and win a stack.

Over a thousand hands, you'll flop 10 sets, win 8 of those hands and lose 2. Of the 8 wins, you're hoping to get it all-in 2-3 times and pick up a stack. But there are so many short stacks at the micros that this will typically yield about 1- 1.5 BI (100 - 150 BB's). Over many thousands of hands, you'll find that netting 2-3 stacks per thousand hands will produce a solid win rate.

Here's a graph of my hands and how much profit they generate at NL10:

http://xs124.xs.to/xs124/08083/profi...841.jpg.xs.jpg

The big bars every inch or so are the pp's, decreasing down to 77. All are solid winners, these 13 pp's make up about 70% of my total poker profit. Hands like AK and AQ and I play them from all positions (though I usually fold AQ if raised to me pre). I play AJ about half the time I get it, and it earns well.

The rest is all just breaking even, trying to chop around in small pots to beat the rake and blinds, looking for weakness. And playing them is BARELY positive, for the most part. I'm playing them only when I have to (in the BB). Just fold the crap. Seriously. It's costing you money right now. It's not "lost earnings." It's a leak.

Now think about this. Why are the pp's winning money? Because of flopped sets. Sets hold up for a win more than 80% of the time, and at the micros I pretty much felt a set whenever I get chance, even on draw-happy boards.

This graph covers 70k hands and $700 in total NL10 winning. It's just my all-ins, the vast majority of which were flopped sets. And it's $500 of the total.

http://xs124.xs.to/xs124/08083/allingraph560.jpg.xs.jpg

When you REALLY understand where the poker profit is at the micros, folding the crap is easy.

BTW, nice posts. Keep in here. Keep posting hands. Keep learning. Good luck at the tables and welcome to FTR. You'll be winning in no time.

Thanks Robb thats great info!

Just to expand a little, is it better to drop PP's under say 5 and 6? I can see points for both sides - All PP's mean more chance of hitting set versus limited PP's to save on on calls. Having said this AOK chart says not to raise any PP's and only call if a raise is 5XBB and raiser has 20Xbb in stack. I find this part difficult to maintain as my normal game is to raise PF with juat about any PP in position and call OOP, for example:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($2.78)
Hero ($5.53)
UTG ($5.24)
MP ($2.68)
CO ($5.05)
Button ($2.42)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif.
UTG calls $0.02, MP calls $0.02, 1 fold, Button calls $0.02, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($0.10) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG bets $0.02, MP folds, Button calls $0.02, SB raises to $0.04, Hero folds, UTG calls $0.02, Button calls $0.02.

Turn: ($0.22) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (3 players)
SB bets $0.08, UTG folds, Button folds.

Final Pot: $0.22

(No images of cards?)

I have around 8K hands logged in PT but wanted to concentrate on keeping my VP$IP at a decent level as well as PFR. Im trying to get my PFR to %75 of my VP$IP

More importantly this one:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP ($2.13)
Button ($5.19)
SB ($3.30)
Hero ($4.82)
UTG ($8.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/4h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/4s.gif.
UTG raises to $0.1, MP calls $0.10, 3 folds.

Flop: ($0.23) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ah.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/js.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/4d.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, MP bets $0.1, UTG raises to $0.4, MP folds.

Final Pot: $0.43

Hand 1, I'm betting 6.5xBB here, 3.5xBB standard raise plus 1 BB / limper. I'm expecting 1-2 callers. At NL2, you can get limp/rr'd all-in every now then, but generally just called. The board come with some draws, but my preflop raise suggest big cards to my opponents. I'm not worried about being behind right now, but I am worried about a big draw lurking out there. So I fire a cbet of 3/4 pot against one villain and full pot against two (this is read dependent - I need some indication that both can actually fold). I not betting the turn or river without improving. I believe this line is +EV. It's certainly not AOK approved, but I think AOK's too limpy and passive for microstakes where preflop raise doesn't really narrow the field all that much but makes it easier to get a big pot when you hit the set.

Hand 2, why not call the raise? It's not a donk raise, it's half the pot. The check raise shows a lot of strength. You might get another bet of out him if he doesn't improve, and you might get his stack if he has an ace or 2 pr.

Operation update:

I havnt had much time to get many hands in this week as ive been at a Pre-Season training camp all week.
Any way totals as follows:

TITAN $65 Up $15
POKERSTARS $23 Down $7

Im only uip on Titan after landing a big pot last night of $12 with a set of 5's on a A Q 5 J 8 board.

Im really beginning to question the methods here, i mean getting pocket 10's in position and not raising? kinda goes against everything iv learnt about poker since i started playing:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($4.18)
SB ($0.88)
BB ($4.38)
UTG ($5.39)
UTG+1 ($2.33)
MP1 ($1.97)
MP2 ($2.97)
Hero ($2.77)
CO ($2.84)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Thttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.02, CO calls $0.02, 1 fold, SB completes, BB raises to $0.28, UTG+1 folds, Hero folds, CO folds, SB folds.

Final Pot: $0.10

Im pretty sure being aggresive here would have worked but once again the chart says fold this hand if pre flos raise over 5bb? this is the deal with all pocket pairs, which brings up another issue i have. No mention of position at all. I starting to think that maybe its not really working for me but ill keep going for another week or so to see what happens. If im not in front by the end of the week im thinking of using Rentons 169 mhand guide with the same experiment on place

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hotfrog

Im pretty sure being aggresive here would have worked but once again the chart says fold this hand if pre flos raise over 5bb? this is the deal with all pocket pairs, which brings up another issue i have. No mention of position at all. I starting to think that maybe its not really working for me but ill keep going for another week or so to see what happens. If im not in front by the end of the week im thinking of using Rentons 169 mhand guide with the same experiment on place

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I played AOK's 19-hands for a month, but I raised almost every hand. I didn't limp anything. If he said limp from EP, I folded instead. But I've given this advice before. I think AOK's strategy is good for a starting place, but if I were you I would (A) start raising at least 2/3's of your hands preflop, (B) look at Renton's guide, and (C) start adding Renton's suggestion ONE AT A TIME, playing about a week with each component. Changing from AOK to Renton in one night isn't gonna be good for your game. The keys Renton will show you are aggression and position.