Fold QQ PF in this scenario? 25NL

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02-12-2008, 12:08 PM
Sup3rM4N

Fold QQ PF in this scenario? 25NL

$0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
6 players

Stacks:
UTG ($11.85)
UTG+1 ($16.80)
CO ($8.65)
BTN ($67.80)
SB ($12.45)
Hero ($25.15)

Pre-flop: ($0.35, 6 players) Hero is BB :qd: :qs:
2 folds, CO raises to $1, BTN raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero raises to $8.25, CO folds, BTN raises to $25

BTN is 18.7/15/5.2 over 513 hands. Should I have reraised or just flat call his initial $3 3-bet? I thought that if I called and flop didn't have A or K, I would be losing more $ leading out flop bet and getting reraised. As played, ez fold?
02-12-2008, 12:21 PM
minSim

call
02-12-2008, 12:39 PM
biondino

Pokerstove your equity here vs his likely holdings, bearing in mind the amount of cash in the pot, and post the results - I know what I think, but I don't know if it's right.
02-12-2008, 12:41 PM
bigred

What is button 3 betting you with? Any previous 3 bets he's shown? What are you running? I think you're a coinflip at best without any other reads. I'm folding.
02-12-2008, 01:05 PM
nutsinho

you need to know what youre doing before you 4bet
02-12-2008, 01:12 PM
Sup3rM4N

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

you need to know what youre doing before you 4bet

Elaborate please.
02-12-2008, 01:14 PM
Sup3rM4N

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

What is button 3 betting you with? Any previous 3 bets he's shown? What are you running? I think you're a coinflip at best without any other reads. I'm folding.

Last memory of him 3betting was AKs where he played it aggressive even though he missed flop and turn. I figured at best I could hope for was a coinflip so I folded. BTN would 3 bet in this situation with TT, JJ, AK, AQ, etc. but don't see him 4 betting me unless AA/KK, AKs at worse.
02-12-2008, 01:16 PM
Sup3rM4N

Quote:

Originally Posted by biondino

Pokerstove your equity here vs his likely holdings, bearing in mind the amount of cash in the pot, and post the results - I know what I think, but I don't know if it's right.

What would I be putting there? What his 3bet range is from BTN or what his 3bet to my reraise would be? If its the 2nd choice, then easily AA/KK, AK, which I am behind against.
02-12-2008, 01:18 PM
Sup3rM4N

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

call

explain why please.

Against the other players at the table who have pretty crappy stats I would've called, but against him, who has been playing solid pretty much every session I played against him, I do not see why calling is a good option.
02-12-2008, 02:17 PM
griffey24

I agree with nutsinho that you definitely need a plan before 4-betting pre.

what would you do if BB flat called your 4-bet in position and the flop was rags? or the flop was A/K high?
02-12-2008, 02:50 PM
Ash256

Fold; the good players' responses is a nice twist.
02-12-2008, 04:03 PM
Marshall28

what ive been doing lately since ive been grinding the micro stakes and players tend not to like to get all in PF w/out aces or kings .... basically, i'd flat call his 3bet, and on any non A or K flop id checkraiseallin or jam over his c-bet all in if i have position. reason this is kind of a better play vs these guys than 4 betting is because when u 4bet, u r probably folding out JJ TT and 99, but if you get a favorable flop like 3 low cards, they will definitely stack off post flop.

pretty much if i pick up queens, im just going on the assumption that it's the best hand, and if i get stacked by aces or kings when i raise all in, i figure thats ok because i woulda got stacked by them anwyays had i 4bet, but this way at least im getting more value from smaller pairs, and also if dude happened to be 3betting u w/ like suited connectors that made a pr smaller than queens he probly not folding either, u know?
02-12-2008, 04:24 PM
Pelion

I think you have to call here now you've gone this far. Theres enough in the pot that if he'll do this with AK even half the time then its a call. I wouldnt expect to win all that often though.
02-12-2008, 05:06 PM
will641

Quote:

Originally Posted by L_Clan_Sup3rMaN

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

you need to know what youre doing before you 4bet

Elaborate please.

i think he's saying, basically, that you shouldnt be 4 betting here w/o the willingness to stack, because if you 4 bet/fold, you basically turn your good hand into a bluff. i actually had a hand similar to this with AK, where i 4 bet it, and folded to a shove because villain snap shoved. poorly played on my part.
02-12-2008, 10:25 PM
nutsinho

yeah basically when you 4bet, you should expect him to almost always either shove or fold. if you want to play QQ this way because you think he only shoves aa/kk so youll avoid tough decisions on low flops that you would encounter by coldcalling, thats fine but i think its fairly bad. If you expect him to be jamming JJ and AK preflop vs your 4bet, then you are 4betting for value and should already be planning on insta snap calling a shove.
I would recommend flatting preflop in this spot though and i think marshall's post sums up why very well.
02-12-2008, 11:29 PM
Mas Redondo

I would almost never 4 bet here, and if i was going to i would want position and a read on what the op is 3betting. Also considering the possible hands are AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK.. + idiot over valuing smaller pairs (unlikely considering his stats), He's gonna reraise AA, KK and give you a tough decision thats a negative, he may also reraise AK JJ, and get you to fold a winner. So if i was going to 4bet here i would probably just go all in. If he calls your not all in reraise he could still be doing this with AA, KK and get you all in on the flop. And i dont think you can show that much aggression only to fold so why not let him make a really bad bad call with a worse hand, since if he's going to call the $8 reraise with JJ, AK he'll probably also call the AI. He's smart enough to know that the odds for a set are way out the window.
02-12-2008, 11:33 PM
Mas Redondo

I would also consider folding it if i didnt want to play a high variance game. or callinging to hit a set of Queens and check folding the flop if i miss. That being in the event that i can put the guy on AA, KK, with no doubt at all. I find that this is an awkward situation and i lose alot of money in it because i'm out of position against an aggressive player, and i'm probably too pussy to shove.
02-13-2008, 02:39 AM
meeloche

When I was at 25nl I don't think I folded QQ preflop ever.
02-13-2008, 06:05 AM
minSim

Quote:

Originally Posted by L_Clan_Sup3rMaN

Quote:

Originally Posted by minSim

call

explain why please.

Against the other players at the table who have pretty crappy stats I would've called, but against him, who has been playing solid pretty much every session I played against him, I do not see why calling is a good option.

The way the hand was played you now have 13 bucks behind.
The pot is huge already and against KK+/AK you have 40% equity.
That's way more than enough for this to be a +EV call on pot odds against that range.
Also I see players at 25NL shoving here with all kinds of hands that we beat which makes it an even easier call.

Quote:

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 60.143% 59.92% 00.22% 172384116 626394.00 { KK+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 39.857% 39.64% 00.22% 114030168 626394.00 { QQ }

The other comments in the thread about calling buttons 3-bet is solid and that was likely the best play. But as played it's a pretty easy call, imo.